In the mid 70s I rode the Southern pre Amtrak and had meals in the dinning car. The waiters passed out cards which the customers wrote down what they wanted. I heard once that this was a carryover from when the waiters couldn't read. Is this true? Did other railroads besides the Southern have this practice? I assume it is not current practice on Amtrak.
As to why the practice started, I do not know. I do know that this was the practice on all roads but the Northern Pacific. Having eaten in the diners of several roads prior to 1971, even though I knew that on the Northern Pacific the waiters wrote our orders as you told them what you wanted, I was a little taken by surprise--until I remembered--when I first ate in an NP diner in April of 1971.
Johnny
Having the customers writing out their orders was 'dining car custom' in the days of railroad operated dining cars.
I suspect, but don't know, it may have been a outgrowth the racist past in attempting to keep black people illerate and treating them as illerate even if they were educated. My travels which were over a number of different carriers, railroad waiters were nearly all black. Pullman Company service employees were a mix of blacks and Phillipino's.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Interesting that NP didn't do this, Johnny, because I was in a GN diner (probably on a combination BN Empire Builder/North Coast Limited) in 1970, and had to write out my order.They didn't make it easy...they gave you a GN Big Sky Blue pencil with lead as hard as anthracite and short enough that you coudn't make it write heavy enough.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
DeggestyAs to why the practice started, I do not know.
I had thought it was to avoid 'mistakes' either on the part of the customers or the staff with orders being received orally and transcribed 'in the usual way'. A customer might order something expensive, eat some major part of it, then summon the waiter and say "This isn't what I ordered" and make the poor fellow take it back for a whole new portion of something else. Or the waiter might write down something extra, which at the end of the night would cover some 'pantry adjustment' a la Sugar Hill. If you look at the somewhat neurotic rules regarding how to serve drinks to customers, I think this reason for the customer writing the order is plausible.
It would certainly cover a situation where waiters themselves were illiterate, though. The only question then is why so unpleasant a detail became systemic regardless of individual literacy...
I think I wrote the orders on the Burlington and Sante Fe. In North by North West, Cary Grant writes his order for brook trout on the 20th Century. Maybe the reason for writing was so that the din would not interfere with hearing and cause errors? After all, dinning (sic!) cars were really noisy.
The other thing I was wondering was the time. Imagine all the time involved in waiters going from table to table verbally asking each diner what they want and writing it down, in the noisy environment charlie hebdo mentions, when they could be seating people or serving them. Multiply this by up to three for the number of seatings involved. Not exactly the magic twenty, is it?
I first encountered this curious custom in November, 1971 on Amtrak's train from GCT to Chicago, and I seem to recall it being used into the 1980's. Most of the time a newbie would try to tell the waiter (never a waitress) what he wanted, only to be rudely answered with a piece of paper and a pencil being thrust at him, sometimes in silence and sometimes accompanied by a gruff "write it out!" I saw this happen any number of times and I cringed each time. What could be a worse, more intimidating "welcome" to the dining car? How on earth could first-timers be expected to know that, unlike every other eating establisment in the world, dining cars required writing out the orders?
But if you think about it, ticking off a list of available foods isn't any different from those breakfast order cards that we use when staying in good hotels. Today I visited a McDonald's and for the first time placed my order via machine; it took twice as long as ordering at the counter takes.
It's doubtful the impetus for this custom was illiteracy; almost certainly it was the desire to have, in his own writing, the customer's order so as to eliminate errors.
Lastly, I think to state or imply that dining car waiters at any period in American history were illiterate is a rather racist statement or implication. Can you seriously imagine Pullman or any railroad actually employng illiterate men in any capacity involving contact with the traveling public? How would such a person read a rule book or written orders? Were any illiterate white men employed as conductors, brakemen, or even barbers? So why posit that black men were illiterate? Many, as we know, were well educated and struggled to gain even a job in a dining car, given the hostility they faced in the work place.
NKP guy It's doubtful the impetus for this custom was illiteracy; almost certainly it was the desire to have, in his own writing, the customer's order so as to eliminate errors. Lastly, I think to state or imply that dining car waiters at any period in American history were illiterate is a rather racist statement or implication. Can you seriously imagine Pullman or any railroad actually employng illiterate men in any capacity involving contact with the traveling public? How would such a person read a rule book or written orders? Were any illiterate white men employed as conductors, brakemen, or even barbers? So why posit that black men were illiterate? Many, as we know, were well educated and struggled to gain even a job in a dining car, given the hostility they faced in the work place.
Yes it is a racist statement - as society was overtly racist during the first 2/3 of the 20th Century. In the 50+ years since the enactment of the Civil Rights Act, we have come to overloook just how racist our society has been in the past. The N word was perfectly acceptable in normal conversation during those times
A number of years ago C-Span telecast a series of the Lincoln-Douglas debates (done by re-enactors) where the words were based on 'transcripts' of the debates as they occurred. In comparison to todays 'speeches' the statements voiced by both parties were totally cringeworthy when it came racial discription.
Most if not all dining car menu had a statement printed on them to the effect that customers were to write out their orders as the waiters were not permitted to accept verbal orders. I have no idea if this statement was carried through on to the early Amtrak dining car menus.
As an aside to illiteracy. In the early 1980's Chessie System moved it headquarters general offices from the B&O Building in Baltimore to office space in Charles Center, a block North of the B&O Building on Charles St. The B&O Building had a Clerical Seniority Roster of employess that were elevator operators, freight handlers and janitorial staff and most of the other non-technical jobs required to keep a office building working. At the time of the move, this roster numbered about 80 employees of all races, 3/4 of which had 30 or more years seniority. With the move they were out of a job unless they could perform routine 1980's clerical work. The top numbers of the seniority roster were not able to read and write at an acceptable level that was detirmined through testing. The remaining 1/4 of the roster was put through a company operated clerical training cirriculum - 14 of the 20 were successful in passing that cirriculum and continued to remain employed. The rest of the rostered either retired and went looking for other jobs with other companies.
This was in the 1980's - not aincent history. We forget there are segments of society, even today, that see glory in being illiterate.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but we need to remember that not all illiterate people are stupid and not all literate folks are smart.
I think it was Dr. Samuel Johnson who said, sometime in the 18th century, that he knew a distinguished man who was fluent in 30 languages, but couldn't say anything intelligent in any of them, including his own.
NKP guy Not to put too fine a point on it, but we need to remember that not all illiterate people are stupid and not all literate folks are smart.
Fully agree, however, to work most jobs that exist in today's world, literacy is required even if intellegence isn't.
As a kid in the 1950s, I rode the Union Pacific City of Portland from the midwest to Seattle. I remember my mother writing her and my order on a card.
I didn't give that much thought.
What I considered strange was that we had to eat at a table for four with two complete strangers. I was not used to that in any restaurant I had been in.
York1 John
I first encountered having to write my order on MOPAC in 1962, and I remember that my writing with the motion of the train was barely legible.
Thinking about the custom, I kinda think that illiteracy probably was a factor. Back in the early years, illiteracy was fairly common in all races, probably more so in non-whites. I get the impression that, like the military, adherence to tradition is very strong with the railroads, and the practice was continued for years even as the times changed.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I remember my mother writing meal orders in the early '50's train diners.
I only ever recall seeing one dining car employee, not counting the supervisor, who wasn't black and that was just before Amtrak took over. The employee was a women and that was also the only woman dining car employee I ever saw pre-Amtrak. Come to think of it, I only recall seeing one black dining supervisor in my trips and that was on the old Seaboard line about 1966-67.
That reminds me of a story my father used to tell. He was drafted into the Army in 1940 and after basic was assigned to the Army Air Corps. The group of buck privates he was with were trated to a speech by a colonel who told them they should be proud of themselves because "the Air Corps only takes the best of the best!" They were then sent to another post for further training and found out that the other half of the barracks they were assigned to was occupied by more "best of the best", only these guys (from southern states that did not have compulsory education) could neither read nor write and had had to sign their enlistment papers with an X.
[quote user="Paul of Covington"]
Thinking about the custom, I kinda think that illiteracy probably was a factor. Back in the early years, illiteracy was fairly common in all races, probably more so in non-whites. I get the impression that, like the military, adherence to tradition is very strong with the railroads
York1 What I considered strange was that we had to eat at a table for four with two complete strangers. I was not used to that in any restaurant I had been in.
Concerning dining car etiquette, it is not astounding to see many people come into a diner and be a bit annoyed when they, not understanding that the staff has to make the best use of the available space, are told to sit at the same table with other people. Also, many do not realize that it is proper to wait at the door until someone indicates where they should sit.
Granted, before taking the first trip on which we ate in a diner, my mother did brief my brother and me on the proper behavior.
This practice continues on Amtrak (at least on those trains that still have full service diners... ).
When I rode the Empire Builder less than two years ago I recall papers being set on tables. You could check the Bones for what you wanted. However I never filled out the paper, the waiter was perfectly happy to fill it out for you. I’m fact it seemed the waiters preferred to fill it out themselves and would go over the order even if you filled out the paper.
I think since this was a superliner diner, which use dumbwaiters and there is no verbal communication between chefs and waiters normally, the waiters needed to use this form to communicate with the chefs.
Had I known this was a railroad tradition maybe I would have filled it out myself... Or maybe I would have followed NP practice, being an NP fan.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
[quote user="ORNHOO"]
Paul of Covington Thinking about the custom, I kinda think that illiteracy probably was a factor. Back in the early years, illiteracy was fairly common in all races, probably more so in non-whites. I get the impression that, like the military, adherence to tradition is very strong with the railroads
It's certainly possible many early waiters were illiterate, but I've never seen anything relating to that being the reason for the customers writing out their own orders. There were many jobs illiterate people could do in steam-era railroading, like track work, cleaning engines, shop work etc. I would think those hired for waiter jobs would be much more likely to be those with at least some education.
BTW re the military...I know someone who tried to join the Marines a few years ago, and before being allowed to enlist they had to take a general intelligence test. They were shocked to find out that the Marines couldn't accept her, because her test score was too high! Apparently if you score over a certain mark, you can only join the Navy.
wjstix BTW re the military...I know someone who tried to join the Marines a few years ago, and before being allowed to enlist they had to take a general intelligence test. They were shocked to find out that the Marines couldn't accept her, because her test score was too high! Apparently if you score over a certain mark, you can only join the Navy.
In the past several years, my experience in diners has been that I am asked to write my name and indicate the space I occupy in a sleeper--the attendant takes my order and marks it on the form.
Deggesty In the past several years, my experience in diners has been that I am asked to write my name and indicate the space I occupy in a sleeper--the atendant takes my order and marks it on the form.
In the past several years, my experience in diners has been that I am asked to write my name and indicate the space I occupy in a sleeper--the atendant takes my order and marks it on the form.
Yup, that’s what my experience was as well
wjstixBTW re the military...I know someone who tried to join the Marines a few years ago, and before being allowed to enlist they had to take a general intelligence test. They were shocked to find out that the Marines couldn't accept her, because her test score was too high! Apparently if you score over a certain mark, you can only join the Navy.
This is probably not accurate, and it may be your friend misunderstood, or heard this from a Navy person as a joke.
All new recruits for any service are required to take the ASVAB. The different branches have minimum required test scores. Here is more info:
https://asvabbootcamp.com/blog/asvab-scores/
CSSHEGEWISCH That says a lot about what kind of soldiers are wanted by the United States Marine Corps.
The Army has soldiers. The Marine Corps has Marines! Or Jarheads! Or Leathernecks!
I joined the Marine Corp on June 17, 1957. Some of the members of my recruit platoon had enlisted in the Corps because of the judge. The judge I asked? Yep, join the Marines or go to jail! Not harden criminals mind you! Just youthful misfits.
By the time Sargent Wolf and Sargent Payne got done with them, they probably wished that they had opted for a little time in the slammer. Most of them were gone before boot camp graduation.
I know I wrote dining car orders on the nkp, in early 1964, the NYC and later on PC and in the atsf.
JPS1 The Army has soldiers. The Marine Corps has Marines! Or Jarheads! Or Leathernecks!
Not to mention teufel hunden
CShaveRR Interesting that NP didn't do this, Johnny, because I was in a GN diner (probably on a combination BN Empire Builder/North Coast Limited) in 1970, and had to write out my order.They didn't make it easy...they gave you a GN Big Sky Blue pencil with lead as hard as anthracite and short enough that you coudn't make it write heavy enough.
Incidentally, I do have the impression that the NP was the only road in comparatively recent times that had the waiters write the orders; does anyone remember another road that followed this practice?
Jeff and Paul North may remember the account of the man who sat down for breakfast, and asked the waiter to please read the menu to him since he had forgottten to put his glasses on--and the waiter responded, "Bless you Boss, I can't read either."
All Wrong: I wondered about this as a college student and then figured it out. It's purely a safety issue. Due to the dinning car swaying and moving, the waiter could easily A.) stab the customer in the neck with the pencil during a particularly hard jolt and B.) or lose his balance and fall into the customer's lap [if he's holding the card with one hand, and writing with the other, the waiter will surly lose his balance. We all use our hands for balance, not writing food orders.]
York1What I considered strange was that we had to eat at a table for four with two complete strangers. I was not used to that in any restaurant I had been in.
Frankly, I always thought of that as one of the charms of rail travel and, with unassigned seating, ocean cruising. I recall only one bad experience (a particularly obnoxious woman seated with us on a cruise ship) and many, many pleasant meals with perfect strangers in dining cars and cruise ships. Of course, the obnoxious woman is the only one I still remember.
ChuckAllen, TX
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