No speed limit = bye-bye HST

[Convicted One]

zardoz

Anyone surprised?

I wouldn't be surprised if they went so far as to make the "limitless" roads into toll roads, forcing users to buy-in for the experience.

[Gramp]

West Texas and the like is one thing.  Otherwise, the rule of thumb is still "Speed Kills!"

To tie this with the California bullet train boondoggle is ridiculous.

[mudchicken]

Politically driven boondoggles tend to be spectacular fails. No exception here. (If only they printed the $$$ amount for what the locals siphoned out of the project already that were not HSR direct investments, then it might get really silly.)

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

zardoz

The California state senator proposes a no-speed-limit highway, by using funds originaly marked for the state's high speed train. As frosting on the cake, T.Rump has cancelled $929M in funding for the rail project. Anyone surprised?

https://news.yahoo.com/american-autobahn-next-states-pushing-111617225.html

 

 

Simple fact, looking at the country as a whole, only a small percentage of people have life styles that would benefit from high speed rail.

Why should the rest of us pay for it?

I like trains, but nothing about my daily/weekly transportation needs could be met by a train, same is true for about 97% of the people I know.

Now, if it was a choice between good rail service and getting on an airplane for a medium distance intercity travel, rail would be my first choice.

Time may not be that much of an issue - example:

I live an hour or more from any major airport.

If I want to travel from my home in rural northeast Maryland to suburban Detroit, MI where I have family, by air it takes me 2-3 hours to leave my home, get to the airport, and take off, for a less than two hour flight, than an hour or longer to get to my destination in suburban Detroit.

That is 6-7 hours portal to portal, maybe more.

I can drive there in 8 hours? Why would I fly?

But if I could take a train (an AMTRAK station is 12 minutes from my rural Maryland home) and get there in 8-10 hours, the relaxation of not driving would be worth a price equal to the air fare.

LARGELY because there is nothing "relaxing" about driving to the airport, hiking around the terminal, going thru security, waiting to board, etc, etc, - for all that BS I would rather drive.

We don't need limited route high speed rail to accomplish this.

I have an idea, stop subsidizing the airlines infrastructure and see what they really have to charge? And stop allowing them to charge one person $500 and the next person $50 for the same product.

If any other industry did that there would be congressional hearings........

Sheldon 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

As for the other topic, highway speed limits, I live in a rural part of the I-95 corridor. The traffic on I-95 moves at a consistant 75-80 mph despite the 65 mph speed limits.

Countless studies have shown that "speed does not kill", speed DIFFERENTIAL kills. Too much difference in speed between the fastest and slowest vehicles is the main cause of limited access highway crashes.

Vehicles going the same speed have a much harder time crashing into each other. They still can, they just have to work much harder at it.

So lets do this, put more of those pesky 80,000 lb truck trailers on flat cars, unclog the highways, raise the speed limits, and inforce minimum speeds on limited access highways.

One more FACT, less than 10% of the traffic deaths nation wide occur on limited access highways.

IN FACT most traffic deaths occure within one mile of one of the drivers home, on local roads with speed limits of 45 mph or less, and excessive speeding is seldom noted as the cause. Most are pilot errors in violating someones "right of way".

Average cars today stop better, handle better, and are way safer than ever before, exponentially........teach people to drive, get them off their phones, get them to put down the weed and the beer..........

And let the expressways be what they were designed to be........fast.....

Sheldon

 

[CMStPnP]

zardoz

The California state senator proposes a no-speed-limit highway, by using funds originaly marked for the state's high speed train. As frosting on the cake, T.Rump has cancelled $929M in funding for the rail project. Anyone surprised?

Easier said than done.......

The problem is that the Autobahn was built to be higher speed in some areas, our Interstate system I believe was built to 70 or 75 mph standards?     Not sure which, one of the posters here older than me might be able to clarify that.    As with HSR design, you can't just increased the speeds ad infinitum without re-engineering the on and off ramps as well as the curves in the road.     So 85 mph is probably as high as your going to see the speed limit.

Also, your really optimistic that a General Motors car will hold together if driven routinely at 85 mph.  I don't have that optimism having almost a lifetime of experience with GM cars before I switched to Mercedes.    Interesting how my Mercedes SUV compares to my former Buick Lucerne in body weight, MPG, pollution, road vibration, safety features, etc.    The Buick was more expensive to own on an annual basis (maintenence wise), burned more fuel with about 1/3 less body weight, I could fill half a page with the GM issues.

Also, I can tell you from experience driving 30 mph on the Autobahn with a 13 ton armored vehicle in a convoy.........not everyone goes 110 mph or faster.    It is mixed speed even without the NATO convoys.   Perhaps at the most 15-20% use the higher speed in unlimited areas and typically only in the far left lane.   Some rural drivers will insist on driving the lower speed limit of the range no matter what the upper speed limit is.

They used to have a much higher octane fuel in Germany than is sold in the United States and the German engines are also engineered to use the higher octane fuel.......it's why they insist on only Premium High Octane Fuel for Mercedes........though in the United States I believe the Octane level is a downgrade from German levels, could be wrong there.   Definitely you do not want to pump regular gasoline into a BMW or Mercedes in the United States or you will get a GM level of performance out of an excellently tuned engine.

[Convicted One]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Why should the rest of us pay for it?

I think that forcing others to pay to advance your own priority has become the modernday definition of "power".

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Convicted One

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Why should the rest of us pay for it?

 

 

I think that forcing others to pay to advance your own priority has become the modernday definition of "power".

 

Liberal = A person who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay with other peoples money.

Conservative = A person who has paid his debt to his fellow man, by earning his own money.

Sheldon

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Simple fact, looking at the country as a whole, only a small percentage of people have life styles that would benefit from high speed rail.

Lets assume that were true.   

1. Non riders would still economically benefit from the higher rents people were willing to pay to be near the HSR stations and off shoot commercial developments.

2. Non riders would still economically benefit by increasing the productivity of the few that could take the HSR, if the HSR was comparitively faster than taking a plane.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

zardoz

The California state senator proposes a no-speed-limit highway, by using funds originaly marked for the state's high speed train. As frosting on the cake, T.Rump has cancelled $929M in funding for the rail project. Anyone surprised?

 

 

Easier said than done.......

The problem is that the Autobahn was built to be higher speed in some areas, our Interstate system I believe was built to 70 or 75 mph standards?     Not sure which, one of the posters here older than me might be able to clarify that.    As with HSR design, you can't just increased the speeds ad infinitum without re-engineering the on and off ramps as well as the curves in the road.     So 85 mph is probably as high as your going to see the speed limit.

Also, your really optimistic that a General Motors car will hold together if driven routinely at 85 mph.  I don't have that optimism having almost a lifetime of experience with GM cars before I switched to Mercedes.    Interesting how my Mercedes SUV compares to my former Buick Lucerne in body weight, MPG, pollution, road vibration, safety features, etc.    The Buick was more expensive to own on an annual basis (maintenence wise), burned more fuel with about 1/3 less body weight, I could fill half a page with the GM issues.

Also, I can tell you from experience driving 30 mph on the Autobahn with a 13 ton armored vehicle in a convoy.........not everyone goes 110 mph or faster.    It is mixed speed even without the NATO convoys.   Perhaps at the most 15-20% use the higher speed in unlimited areas and typically only in the far left lane.   Some rural drivers will insist on driving the lower speed limit of the range no matter what the upper speed limit is.

They used to have a much higher octane fuel in Germany than is sold in the United States and the German engines are also engineered to use the higher octane fuel.......it's why they insist on only Premium High Octane Fuel for Mercedes........though in the United States I believe the Octane level is a downgrade from German levels, could be wrong there.   Definitely you do not want to pump regular gasoline into a BMW or Mercedes in the United States or you will get a GM level of performance out of an excellently tuned engine.

 

Really?

A few thoughts from someone who was a shop foreman in the BMW store, and who has built high performance FORD's and CHEVY's from the ground up.

I drive my 2015 FORD F250 4x4 pickup at 80 mph every day on I-95, it has 85,000 miles on it already, has had no repair issues, runs like new, and drives fine at 80 mph with its 4 wheel disc anti lock brakes, electronic traction control, and roll stability control, all 7,500 lbs worth.

When I'm not driving that, I drive a 2015 FORD FLEX LIMITED with the eccoboost 3.5 liter engine. Full time AWD, 6 speed w/paddle shifters, twin turbo, 365 hp, 360lb/ft torque, electric power steering, RSC, anti lock 4 wheel disc brakes, etc, etc.

And way more practical for my needs than any Benz or BMW........

Most domestic cars are way better than you think......

Sheldon  

[BaltACD]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Convicted One

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Why should the rest of us pay for it? 

I think that forcing others to pay to advance your own priority has become the modernday definition of "power". 

Liberal = A person who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay with other peoples money.

Conservative = A person who thinks he has paid his debt to his fellow man, by earning his own money - but in reality hasn't

Sheldon

What we really have is the divide between Progressives and Regressives.  Regressives never progress!

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Convicted One

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Why should the rest of us pay for it? 

I think that forcing others to pay to advance your own priority has become the modernday definition of "power". 

Liberal = A person who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay with other peoples money.

Conservative = A person who thinks he has paid his debt to his fellow man, by earning his own money - but in reality hasn't

Sheldon

 

 

 

What we really have is the divide between Progressives and Regressives.  Regressives never progress!

 

 

I guess we all have different opinons on what constitutes "progress".

For me progress does not include more control, more welfare, more taxes, or more government.

Adam Smith suggested that the government that governs least , governs best, and that my first obligation to my fellow man was to take care of myself and my family so that others would not have to.

After that I have a moral obligation to do what I can for those in need, but Jefferson suggested I should not be compelled to do that against my values at the gun point of the tax collector.

How about some real progress, inact the tax system proposed by Henry George and do away with the low bid system of government contracts like he proposed?

His tax plan would force the landholders to manage that God given resource to the benefit all, not just to their benefit.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Simple fact, looking at the country as a whole, only a small percentage of people have life styles that would benefit from high speed rail.

 

 

Lets assume that were true.   

1. Non riders would still economically benefit from the higher rents people were willing to pay to be near the HSR stations and off shoot commercial developments.

2. Non riders would still economically benefit by increasing the productivity of the few that could take the HSR, if the HSR was comparitively faster than taking a plane.

 

How do I benefit from those who are willing to pay outrageous rents in the city?

And most of those people do not produce wealth, they simply make money manipulating wealth. Their "productivity" is not likely to increase, or benefit others in any way that equals the cost of limited route high speed rail.

I create wealth, I take $200,000 worth of raw materials (and labor) and turn it into a $300,000 home.......

Sheldon

 

[tree68]

CMStPnP

The problem is that the Autobahn was built to be higher speed in some areas, our Interstate system I believe was built to 70 or 75 mph standards?     Not sure which, one of the posters here older than me might be able to clarify that.    As with HSR design, you can't just increased the speeds ad infinitum without re-engineering the on and off ramps as well as the curves in the road.     So 85 mph is probably as high as your going to see the speed limit.

The Interstates were built for two reasons - to move military equipment (which is why they were thick reinforced concrete) and to quickly evacuate people from population centers.

These days you're not likely to see an M1 Abrams on the Interstate, and the only time you see evacuations is on the weekends and ahead of hurricanes (when they turn into linear parking lots).

I was pleasantly surprised to see the speed limit on I75 in Michigan rise to 75 MPH once I got north of Saginaw on my way to cross "Big Mac" last year.  A retired trooper I know once said "nine is fine, ten you're mine."  So the cruise got set for 84 MPH and away I went.

Around here the majority of traffic incidents on the Interstate are related to the weather - a la winter - when folks forget or don't know to slow down, thus finding themselves in the ditch.

And yes, most accidents occur within a mile or two from home - which is why Bubba moved...

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

tree68

 

 

CMStPnP

The problem is that the Autobahn was built to be higher speed in some areas, our Interstate system I believe was built to 70 or 75 mph standards?     Not sure which, one of the posters here older than me might be able to clarify that.    As with HSR design, you can't just increased the speeds ad infinitum without re-engineering the on and off ramps as well as the curves in the road.     So 85 mph is probably as high as your going to see the speed limit.

 

 

The Interstates were built for two reasons - to move military equipment (which is why they were thick reinforced concrete) and to quickly evacuate people from population centers.

These days you're not likely to see an M1 Abrams on the Interstate, and the only time you see evacuations is on the weekends and ahead of hurricanes (when they turn into linear parking lots).

I was pleasantly surprised to see the speed limit on I75 in Michigan rise to 75 MPH once I got north of Saginaw on my way to cross "Big Mac" last year.  A retired trooper I know once said "nine is fine, ten you're mine."  So the cruise got set for 84 MPH and away I went.

Around here the majority of traffic incidents on the Interstate are related to the weather - a la winter - when folks forget or don't know to slow down, thus finding themselves in the ditch.

And yes, most accidents occur within a mile or two from home - which is why Bubba moved...

 

And given the error purposely engineered into speedometers, even modern electronic ones, by the time it reads 84 you are really only doing about 80.

Most of the time around here on I-95, your speedometer would be saying 85 before a State Trooper would even look up from his cell phone as he sits in the median with his radar switched on........again, the posted speed is 65.......

My 1963 Chevy Nova Convertible with its built up 283 would hit 135 mph on its factory looking Corvette 160 mph speedometer.

135 was a bit much in that thing, but with the suspension mods I did to it, it handled pretty well for the time, up to about 110 mph. 0-60 in 5 secs, 1/4 mile in about 15 secs, 20 mpg if you drove "normal".

Sheldon

[BaltACD]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I create wealth, I take $200,000 worth of raw materials and turn it into a $300,000 home.......

Sheldon

If you are taking $200K of materials and turning it in to a $300K home, you must not value your own time very highly.  $100K sounds like a lot - in today's world, considering you won't bet the only individual that is putting the home together there are a lot of subcontractors time and efforts that will have to be compensated.

[tree68]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And given the error purposely engineered into speedometers, even modern electronic ones, by the time it reads 84 you are really only doing about 80.

I've checked mine via GPS a number of times - it's about 2 MPH high at 65.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I create wealth, I take $200,000 worth of raw materials and turn it into a $300,000 home.......

Sheldon

 

 

If you are taking $200K of materials and turning it in to a $300K home, you must not value your own time very highly.  $100K sounds like a lot - in today's world, considering you won't bet the only individual that is putting the home together there are a lot of subcontractors time and efforts that will have to be compensated.

 

Well, you are right, I was typing too fast, and left out "and labor". The gross margin is about 30%. 

And to be more specific, we hardly ever build new homes, we do custom renovations and historic restoration work. 

And we are highly "green", we stop our history from ending up in the land fill, replaced by vinyl and cardboard cracker jack boxes......

We save stuff like this from the wrecking ball or the cheezy vinyl siding remodeler:

 

 

Sheldon

 

[BaltACD]

High Speed Rail is actually building something.

Changing highway speed limits isn't.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

High Speed Rail is actually building something.

Changing highway speed limits isn't.

 

But the question is, do we need it? Will it make things better? For whom? At what cost? And who will pay?

As I illustrated above, I can, and have, driven from Harford County, MD to Farmington, MI as fast as you can fly there, negating the value of air travel in my view.

I'm looking to be shown who will benefit from high speed rail and how?

I think the government should invest in rail passenger service, I'm just not sure we need high speed rail.

I don't think airlines should be allowed to charge one person $500 and another person $50 for the same product. I don't think the tax payers should support the airlines infrastructure, unless we do the same with rail service and we can show the economic and social benefit of both.

Sheldon

[Paul of Covington]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And given the error purposely engineered into speedometers, even modern electronic ones, by the time it reads 84 you are really only doing about 80.

   To keep my mind occupied when driving long distances, I like to check the odometer against the mile posts for 10, 20, 50, even 100 miles and figure the percentage of error.   Then I check the speedometer against the odometer and my watch.   The error has never been as high as 2%, and is usually within 1%.   In fact my last car was actually about ½% low.   I do remember, though, reading reviews of cars in magazines like Popular Mechanics back in the '50's and '60's that they reported that the speedometers tended to test about 5% high.

[Flintlock76]

If you haven't done so, I'd suggest everyone read Fred Frailey's blog  "The Week Of Broken Trains" plus the links Mr. Fred set up.  Quite an eye-opener.

The curtain's coming down on high-speed rail, for a variety of reasons.   It'll be a long time before it rises again, if it ever does.  

[charlie hebdo]

Flintlock76

If you haven't done so, I'd suggest everyone read Fred Frailey's blog  "The Week Of Broken Trains" plus the links Mr. Fred set up.  Quite an eye-opener.

The curtain's coming down on high-speed rail, for a variety of reasons.   It'll be a long time before it rises again, if it ever does.  

 

More and more we are becoming like an LDC (formerly known as 3rd world nations) in terms of infrastructure, whether roads, rails, bridges, electric grid, etc..  This from a nation that went to the moon.  Sad.

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Really? A few thoughts from someone who was a shop foreman in the BMW store, and who has built high performance FORD's and CHEVY's from the ground up. I drive my 2015 FORD F250 4x4 pickup at 80 mph every day on I-95, it has 85,000 miles on it already, has had no repair issues, runs like new, and drives fine at 80 mph with its 4 wheel disc anti lock brakes, electronic traction control, and roll stability control, all 7,500 lbs worth. When I'm not driving that, I drive a 2015 FORD FLEX LIMITED with the eccoboost 3.5 liter engine. Full time AWD, 6 speed w/paddle shifters, twin turbo, 365 hp, 360lb/ft torque, electric power steering, RSC, anti lock 4 wheel disc brakes, etc, etc. And way more practical for my needs than any Benz or BMW........ Most domestic cars are way better than you think...... Sheldon  

Hope your luck holds out. :)

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

How do I benefit from those who are willing to pay outrageous rents in the city? And most of those people do not produce wealth, they simply make money manipulating wealth. Their "productivity" is not likely to increase, or benefit others in any way that equals the cost of limited route high speed rail. I create wealth, I take $200,000 worth of raw materials (and labor) and turn it into a $300,000 home....... Sheldon

OK, I am not going into basic Economics again in this forum.   It's futile.    Just have to trust that increasing productivity for just one class in the economic strata results in marginally increased GDP for that class (if you like to view the world via income classes that is).   

I believe there were some income equality people a ways back that wanted to eliminate all Corporate jets.   You do that for someone getting paid millions of dollars in salary and it will significantly impact their ability to be productive...........and we would all pay the price for that, not just the executives with the planes.     I think a similar decision in the Reagan administration was made about large yachts.    We don't need large yachts lets tax them so much it make them harder to purchase.   Then the shipyards across the country that also manufactured DoD contracts started to layoff people that built the yachts and Congress reversed itself and repealed the tax.   Now there is a lesson in Economics if I ever saw one.

[CMStPnP]

charlie hebdo

More and more we are becoming like an LDC (formerly known as 3rd world nations) in terms of infrastructure, whether roads, rails, bridges, electric grid, etc..  This from a nation that went to the moon.  Sad.

And if you want to see something that is even more depressing, check your CSPAN schedule and look for the next time the Fed Chairman testifies before Congress.    Watch it if you can or tape it on your DVR.   I watched it back in April or May of last year.   He was like a broken record "We do not have the tools at the Fed to do that, that is your job as the Congress to do that"..........he repeated it like 7 times to various Congress people.    The Congress folks listening to him gave him a look like they just landed from the moon...all confused.    Then one of them spoke up and said "So could you help us understand what to do to address this?   Because the last person the Fed sent to testify here wasn't speaking english (meaning they could not understand them)"     

Guess what they were talking about?    Wage growth and income inequality (lol).    The same topic that we have Congress people running on now for office of POTUS that are saying it is someone elses fault.

Sad but true.

[Flintlock76]

charlie hebdo

 

 

Flintlock76

If you haven't done so, I'd suggest everyone read Fred Frailey's blog  "The Week Of Broken Trains" plus the links Mr. Fred set up.  Quite an eye-opener.

The curtain's coming down on high-speed rail, for a variety of reasons.   It'll be a long time before it rises again, if it ever does.  

 

 

 

 

More and more we are becoming like an LDC (formerly known as 3rd world nations) in terms of infrastructure, whether roads, rails, bridges, electric grid, etc..  This from a nation that went to the moon.  Sad.

 

To say nothing of stultifying 3d world style bureaucracy that seems to be growing like a fungus in this country.

Back in the '70s I read a very interesting book which I never forgot called "The America We Lost" by a Professor Mario Pei that warned about that very issue.  Professor Pei's parents left Italy to get away from crushing governmental bureaucracy that stifled everyone's efforts and crippled individual initiative.  He saw the same thing happening here.  Professor Pei seems to have been as accurate a prophet as any of Macbeth's witches.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

How do I benefit from those who are willing to pay outrageous rents in the city? And most of those people do not produce wealth, they simply make money manipulating wealth. Their "productivity" is not likely to increase, or benefit others in any way that equals the cost of limited route high speed rail. I create wealth, I take $200,000 worth of raw materials (and labor) and turn it into a $300,000 home....... Sheldon

 

 

OK, I am not going into basic Economics again in this forum.   It's futile.    Just have to trust that increasing productivity for just one class in the economic strata results in increased GDP.   I believe there were some income equality people a ways back that wanted to eliminate all Corporate jets.   You do that for someone getting paid millions of dollars in salary and it will significantly impact their ability to be productive...........and we would all pay the price for that, not just the executives with the planes. 

 

I understand economics pretty well.....

I'm not doubting that a very small percentage of several very specific classes of workers would have increased productivity. I'm questioning the assumption that the increase would offset the cost of high speed rail.

I'm in favor of corporate jets, yacht's for corporate meetings, however rich executives want to spend their money, or their companies money to do their jobs - but don't ask me to pay for it in the form of public spending.

Believe me, I'm a capitalist of the first order. Higher GDP or lower taxes, same effect for most classes........

I've been self employed most of my life.

In keeping with the OP's comments, how about the government getting all the big slow tractor trailers off I-95 and on to flat cars, raise the speed limit to 85 and increase my productivity by getting me to my jobs sites faster.........

And just give me reliable intercity rail service at some normal speed, like 80 or 100 mph...........serving more than just one "special" route.

But what do I know, I'm just a hick in flyover country with a pickup, a turbo charged station wagon, a gun (or 2, or 3), no mortgage, no car payments, and some little HO trains with no brains......

And I'm not retired, so you won't hear much from me tomorrow......

Sheldon

[CMStPnP]

Flintlock76

To say nothing of stultifying 3d world style bureaucracy that seems to be growing like a fungus in this country.

 

Good point and getting back to the topic.   

The biggest single item that has slowed every single HSR project in the country including Brightline is the Environmental Impact Statement Requirement (publication, review and approval process).    You can see it in every project timeline.    Streamline that process and you have sped up future implementations.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

Flintlock76

To say nothing of stultifying 3d world style bureaucracy that seems to be growing like a fungus in this country.

 

 

 

 

Good point and getting back to the topic.   

The biggest single item that has slowed every single HSR project in the country including Brightline is the Environmental Impact Statement Requirement (publication, review and approval process).    You can see it in every project timeline.    Streamline that process and you have sped up future implementations.

 

For, or against, or indifferent to high speed rail, I agree our government and its bureaucracy are beyond out of control.

We don't know half as much about "environmental impact" as we think we do......

My view, we are not powerful enough to perminately harm the invironment, it has always changed on its own. Should the mothership beam us all up tomorrow, mother earth would clean up any small mess we have made in a blink of her eternal eye.

Sure, we should try to be reasonable stewards, just like I save old houses, but to be so arrogant as to assume we can "fix" things we might not even be the main cause of, is well, arrogant...... 

I'm sure this view will not set well with some....

Climate change is real, but so was the ice age, the mini ice age, and lots of other climate shifts before we started burning oil and coal..........

Sheldon

[Shadow the Cats owner]

My one thought on CA wanting to have no speed limits on their highways for cars.  They better raise the speed limits for the OTR guys then.  Can you imagine the carnage of a Vette doing say 120 underridding a 57 foot trailer and yes those are legal in CA with the tandems set for 40 feet which is required.  The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.  

[CMStPnP]

Shadow the Cats owner

The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.  

There is also the open question if adaptive cruise control can work safely at the higher speeds as well.     Lots of assumptions made with the lets just abandon the speed limit crowd.

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And I'm not retired, so you won't hear much from me tomorrow...... Sheldon

I'm not retired either but am able to work almost entirely from home.

[caldreamer]

I wonder how much of a bribe he took from the auto makers?

     Caldreamer

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And I'm not retired, so you won't hear much from me tomorrow...... Sheldon

 

 

I'm not retired either but am able to work almost entirely from home.

 

I work both as a residential designer/historic restoration consultant and a restoration carpenter. So my work is sometimes at home on the drawing board, sometimes in the field working with my hands, both very rewarding.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

Shadow the Cats owner

The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.  

 

 

There is also the open question if adaptive cruise control can work safely at the higher speeds as well.     Lots of assumptions made with the lets just abandon the speed limit crowd.

 

I don't know that we should abandon speed limits, but they could easily be higher.

The adaptive cruise control on my FLEX has been reliable and predictable in the 80 mph range.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Shadow the Cats owner

My one thought on CA wanting to have no speed limits on their highways for cars.  They better raise the speed limits for the OTR guys then.  Can you imagine the carnage of a Vette doing say 120 underridding a 57 foot trailer and yes those are legal in CA with the tandems set for 40 feet which is required.  The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.  

 

As I have noted earlier in this thread, speed differential is the real safety hazard......

Back to work now, building a kitchen today.

Sheldon

[Ulrich]

Speed limits are meaningless when you're stuck in traffic gridlock..may as well eliminate the speed limit as in most parts of CA you'd be hard pressed to average 40 mph on most days.  

[zugmann]

Shadow the Cats owner

My one thought on CA wanting to have no speed limits on their highways for cars. They better raise the speed limits for the OTR guys then. Can you imagine the carnage of a Vette doing say 120 underridding a 57 foot trailer and yes those are legal in CA with the tandems set for 40 feet which is required. The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.

Or having a truck going 100 smashing into a line of stopped or slow-moving cars?

Incident like that last October here caused 3 deaths and 7 injuries.

[tree68]

Back in the 1960's there was a campaign to get rid of "killer trees" from alongside the highways.  To some extent, that was done on the Interstates, although the small trees planted at that time to cushion impacts for vehicles going off the road are getting pretty big now...

An editorial in a local paper pointed out that even after all the safety measures (get rid of trees, mandatory following distances, consistent speeds, etc) some fool would roll his car and die anyhow...

[BaltACD]

There is no defense against terminal incompetence coupled with situational stupidity!

[Paul of Covington]

tree68

Back in the 1960's there was a campaign to get rid of "killer trees" from alongside the highways. To some extent, that was done on the Interstates, although the small trees planted at that time to cushion impacts for vehicles going off the road are getting pretty big now...

   That must have been a national movement.   I was living in Baton Rouge around that time, and I remember seeing in the news that people were protesting against the tree removal, and they made them stop.   This involved a stretch of highway west of Baton Rouge that was lined with beautiful oak trees.   (I hope they were not relatives of yours.)

   On a semi-related note, I remember reading around that time that tests had been conducted to find the safest type of barrier to use in places like the medians on interstates, and they concluded that a solid row of rose bushes performed the best.

[tree68]

Paul of Covington

On a semi-related note, I remember reading around that time that tests had been conducted to find the safest type of barrier to use in places like the medians on interstates, and they concluded that a solid row of rose bushes performed the best.

I'm not sure if GM came up with the idea, or simply embraced it, but the concept of burying the ends of guard rails was used all over GM's Michigan Proving Grounds. 

The idea was that instead of running smack into an immovable object (there were many instances of guard rails impaling vehicles), a vehicle would simply slide up on to it.  Extending the posts slightly above the top of of the rail would serve to slow the vehicle.

Then someone sued, saying that their son would not have been killed if he hadn't been launched by the sloped section.

Nowadays you're seeing energy-absorbing assemblies, or the guard rails are tailed off so the likelihood of someone launching off them is near zero.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Depending on the layout of the junction, I've seen either sand barrels or telescoping rail ends at off ramps or other junctions.  It seems that I've seen the sand barrels smashed at some points on a regular basis.

[mudchicken]

(the problem with sand barrel attenuators and other types of energy dissapating devices is how long they take to replace after the first knucklehead gets into them and destroys them. Several of his/her friends seem to find the same place to screw-up before they are finally replaced, usually by an inferior product.) As for the guardrails - the cheapest, not best, solution seems to be a problem with guardrails "spearing" cars these days.

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

 

Shadow the Cats owner

My one thought on CA wanting to have no speed limits on their highways for cars. They better raise the speed limits for the OTR guys then. Can you imagine the carnage of a Vette doing say 120 underridding a 57 foot trailer and yes those are legal in CA with the tandems set for 40 feet which is required. The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.

 

 

Or having a truck going 100 smashing into a line of stopped or slow-moving cars?

Incident like that last October here caused 3 deaths and 7 injuries.

 

I bet that vette can maneuver a whole lot better than that trucker pulling a couple of 40’ sails down the interstate.

 

[charlie hebdo]

zugmann

 

 

Shadow the Cats owner

My one thought on CA wanting to have no speed limits on their highways for cars. They better raise the speed limits for the OTR guys then. Can you imagine the carnage of a Vette doing say 120 underridding a 57 foot trailer and yes those are legal in CA with the tandems set for 40 feet which is required. The driver of the Vette's head is right about floor level on a Swift trailer which has the largest fleet.

 

 

Or having a truck going 100 smashing into a line of stopped or slow-moving cars?

Incident like that last October here caused 3 deaths and 7 injuries.

 

And then there was the horrible 2003 fatal crash at the Marengo toll plaza in Illinois.  The truck driver was going 60 in a 45 mph construction zone approaching the toll booth.  Traffic was backed up.  He rear-ended a stopped 25-passenger tour bus, killing eight women. 20 others were injured, but not the truck driver. He was sentenced to four years in prison, nearly the maximum. Authorities hoped the sentence will send a message to the entire trucking industry.

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

And if our collective governments were really concerned about safety, fuel consumption, productivity, or quality of of life, they would teardown all those toll plazas.

They are just traffic jam safety hazzard cash cows.......

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

There is no defense against terminal incompetence coupled with situational stupidity!

 

I say my version of that statement at least once a day as I drive typically 60 to 100 miles a day in central Maryland.....

"There you have it, the driving skills of the terminally stupid"

Sheldon

[CMStPnP]

charlie hebdo

And then there was the horrible 2003 fatal crash at the Marengo toll plaza in Illinois.  The truck driver was going 60 in a 45 mph construction zone approaching the toll booth.  Traffic was backed up.  He rear-ended a stopped 25-passenger tour bus, killing eight women. 20 others were injured, but not the truck driver. He was sentenced to four years in prison, nearly the maximum. Authorities hoped the sentence will send a message to the entire trucking industry.

Why was there even a toll plaza?    Dallas yanked ours about 10-12 years ago, you can no longer pay on the freeway.  Your car goes through a scanner and they send the bill to your home address.    We don't employ a legion of toll collectors or for that matter ticket collectors like they do in Northern Illinois.    That issue was solved by technology, two decades ago.   Ticket issuance for trains is automated by machine and toll collection is automated by scanner and computer.

[BaltACD]

CMStPnP

 

charlie hebdo

And then there was the horrible 2003 fatal crash at the Marengo toll plaza in Illinois.  The truck driver was going 60 in a 45 mph construction zone approaching the toll booth.  Traffic was backed up.  He rear-ended a stopped 25-passenger tour bus, killing eight women. 20 others were injured, but not the truck driver. He was sentenced to four years in prison, nearly the maximum. Authorities hoped the sentence will send a message to the entire trucking industry. 

Why was there even a toll plaza?    Dallas yanked ours about 10-12 years ago, you can no longer pay on the freeway.  Your car goes through a scanner and they send the bill to your home address.    We don't employ a legion of toll collectors or for that matter ticket collectors like they do in Northern Illinois.    That issue was solved by technology, two decades ago.   Ticket issuance for trains is automated by machine and toll collection is automated by scanner and computer.

Florida uses all technologies on the Florida Turnpike.  They have toll booths to get tickets and pay a variable amounts at toll booths depending on where you exit.  They have toll booths where there is a fixed charge - where the toll booths exist there are also Sun Pass lanes for those that have the Sun Pass RFID transponder units.  Additionally there are locations where the toll is either Sun Pass or toll by tag that ends up being sent in the mail to your address of record.  

I am guessing the state wants to have full employment with the human toll takers.

What I find curious among all the states that have RFID Transponder system - Why in the name of Sam Hell aren't they all compatible?  I have EZ-Pass that Maryland and a number of other East Coast states use, but it is not compatible with Sun Pass in Florida or K-Tag in Kansas.

[Miningman]

Oh that's easy... not the same insider favoured relatives and other connections owning those companies that provide the service. 

[tree68]

Massachussetts pulled the booths off the MassPike as well - everybody has to have a transponder.  Fortunately, it's compatible with NY's EZPass.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

On the Illinois Tollway system, transponders (I-Pass) have been available for quite a few years now but are not mandatory.  As a way of encouraging regular users to get transponders, cash tolls are double the amount of electronic tolls.  Toll booths requiring a stop are separated and are off to the side of the main roadway.  Toll booths on ramps have separate lanes for transponders or cash.

I-Pass also has an interchange agreement with toll roads that use EZ-Pass.  As an example, I can use my I-Pass on the Indiana Toll Road.

[tree68]

Many bridges seem to be getting in on the transponder game as well.  The Thousand Island Bridge will be implementing EZPass this year.  

It will be convenient as many folks using the bridge already have a transponder.

[BaltACD]

tree68

Many bridges seem to be getting in on the transponder game as well.  The Thousand Island Bridge will be implementing EZPass this year.  

It will be convenient as many folks using the bridge already have a transponder.

In Maryland, EZ-Pass is basically 'free' for the asking.  You set up your account with a minimum 'deposit' of $25 that will be used to pay the tolls that accumulate and a agreement to charge your credit car when the available balance drops below a specified minimum.  There is no separate charge for the transponder unit.  The Sun Pass system requires a separate purchase of the transponder in addition to the account.

My normal traffic routes don't require EZ-Pass, however, for 'free' there is no reason to NOT to set up an account for the occasions that may happen when I may need it.

[Deggesty]

tree68

Massachussetts pulled the booths off the MassPike as well - everybody has to have a transponder.  Fortunately, it's compatible with NY's EZPass.

 

And if you are a tourister from way out of state driving your own car or a rental car, how do you pay if you do not have a compatible transponder?

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

 

 

tree68

Many bridges seem to be getting in on the transponder game as well.  The Thousand Island Bridge will be implementing EZPass this year.  

It will be convenient as many folks using the bridge already have a transponder.

 

 

In Maryland, EZ-Pass is basically 'free' for the asking.  You set up your account with a minimum 'deposit' of $25 that will be used to pay the tolls that accumulate and a agreement to charge your credit car when the available balance drops below a specified minimum.  There is no separate charge for the transponder unit.  The Sun Pass system requires a separate purchase of the transponder in addition to the account.

My normal traffic routes don't require EZ-Pass, however, for 'free' there is no reason to NOT to set up an account for the occasions that may happen when I may need it.

 

Most of the northeast is on the EZ Pass system, but Maryland is slow to make it required and do away with the toll plazas. They did however build express lanes on I95 north of the Baltimore tunnels which only use transponder/photo toll collection.

Sheldon

[54light15]

There's also the matter of driver training. In Germany as we all know, the autobahns have sections with no speed limits and driver training is much more intense than it is here. As I understand it, it is very difficult to get a driver's license in Germany. When I took my driver's test in 1973, the hardest part was parallel parking. There was no highway training at all. Also, on the autobahn with no speed limit, there is no minimum speed either (so I've heard) so if you're bombing down the road at 150kph, you need to watch out for those driving at 90kph. 

[CMStPnP]

BaltACD

What I find curious among all the states that have RFID Transponder system - Why in the name of Sam Hell aren't they all compatible?  I have EZ-Pass that Maryland and a number of other East Coast states use, but it is not compatible with Sun Pass in Florida or K-Tag in Kansas.

In the Dallas area they started to diverge and someone got your idea and now the toll pass works at the Airport for Airport parking, on both private and public toll roads.   I agree they should have one that is nationwide.

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

The adaptive cruise control on my FLEX has been reliable and predictable in the 80 mph range.

Thats great but the OP stated unlimited speed AND we were also comparing to the autobahn.    How far in advance do you think that little weak radar behind your grill works (on the mercedes it's behind their large emblem on the grill).   90 mph 130 mph, 160 mph, 180 mph.    Seems to me the higher speed you go the more harsh the brake application would be as you approach a slower moving vehicle and close the distance fast, depending on how fractional it is your current speed.    I'm not an engineer but I have noticed when someone merges into my lane and they are moving slower and not at the safe distance.......the brake application made automatically is rather more forceful.

[CMStPnP]

Deggesty

And if you are a tourister from way out of state driving your own car or a rental car, how do you pay if you do not have a compatible transponder?

Rental car companies you sign an agreement in your rental agreement they have the right to deduct from your Credit Card after final settlement for tolls incurred while you had the vehicle under rent.   It usally happens when the bill arrives to the rental car company........they nick your bill.   

If your in Illinois beware because the very nice people in Northern Illinois include a fine on top for not renting the tollpass collection with the rental car.   It can be hefty if you skip multiple booths because they expect you to stop and pay if you do not have a toll device, their computer and scanning equipment is not smart enough to determine the difference between licenses of a rental and privately owned car.   So in Northern Illinois they will fine you like a resident if you skip a booth without paying.....and of course the fine increases as you skip multiple booths.

[Deggesty]

Thanks for the information about toll collections. I'm glad that I do not drive any more. When I did drive, I avoided toll roads as much as possible, though I did not mind payung to drive from the Norfolk area to the Delmarva Peninsula 12 years ago.

[spsffan]

Where I live, we have few toll roads, and where they exist, I generally don't venture. But I have visited San Francisco, and received a bill in mail from the Golden Gate Bridge (no more toll booths there) after I got home. Which was fine. They charged a couple of extra $ for having to do it by mail. 

 

The Bay Bridge still has cash toll lanes, with traffic backed up to Berkeley. 

[GERALD L MCFARLANE JR]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

BaltACD

High Speed Rail is actually building something.

Changing highway speed limits isn't.

 

 

 

 

But the question is, do we need it? Will it make things better? For whom? At what cost? And who will pay?

As I illustrated above, I can, and have, driven from Harford County, MD to Farmington, MI as fast as you can fly there, negating the value of air travel in my view.

I'm looking to be shown who will benefit from high speed rail and how?

I think the government should invest in rail passenger service, I'm just not sure we need high speed rail.

I don't think airlines should be allowed to charge one person $500 and another person $50 for the same product. I don't think the tax payers should support the airlines infrastructure, unless we do the same with rail service and we can show the economic and social benefit of both.

Sheldon 

In this case HSR would have benefited most the people that live in the Central Valley and drive anywhere from 2 - 4 hours to and from work in Silicon Valley and the rest of the SF Bay Area.  There are people that live as far away as Fresno and work in Silicon Valley.   With HSR that long commute would've been gone in an instant, what would take you 4 hours to do driving could be done in an hour to 90 minutes, a significant savings and improvement in quality of life.  So basically your average worker would benefit, and there are average workers still in SV, they're not all techies.

Everyone should also remember this line: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".  In this case I don't consider 10% of the U.S population as being the needs of the few, especially since roughly 50% of the Federal budget is funded by just 5 states.

I think we need to redo the allocation alotment of the Federal budget, just set it so that states get back the percentage they put in.  We need to be completely fair to everyone, sorry if that sucks for those Southern states that input nothing.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

GERALD L MCFARLANE JR

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

BaltACD

High Speed Rail is actually building something.

Changing highway speed limits isn't.

 

 

 

 

But the question is, do we need it? Will it make things better? For whom? At what cost? And who will pay?

As I illustrated above, I can, and have, driven from Harford County, MD to Farmington, MI as fast as you can fly there, negating the value of air travel in my view.

I'm looking to be shown who will benefit from high speed rail and how?

I think the government should invest in rail passenger service, I'm just not sure we need high speed rail.

I don't think airlines should be allowed to charge one person $500 and another person $50 for the same product. I don't think the tax payers should support the airlines infrastructure, unless we do the same with rail service and we can show the economic and social benefit of both.

Sheldon 

 

 

 

In this case HSR would have benefited most the people that live in the Central Valley and drive anywhere from 2 - 4 hours to and from work in Silicon Valley and the rest of the SF Bay Area.  There are people that live as far away as Fresno and work in Silicon Valley.   With HSR that long commute would've been gone in an instant, what would take you 4 hours to do driving could be done in an hour to 90 minutes, a significant savings and improvement in quality of life.  So basically your average worker would benefit, and there are average workers still in SV, they're not all techies.

Everyone should also remember this line: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".  In this case I don't consider 10% of the U.S population as being the needs of the few, especially since roughly 50% of the Federal budget is funded by just 5 states.

I think we need to redo the allocation alotment of the Federal budget, just set it so that states get back the percentage they put in.  We need to be completely fair to everyone, sorry if that sucks for those Southern states that input nothing.

 

Are you serious here? Who told them to live 2 or more hours from their job?

How much do these jobs pay? Why would anyone in their right mind live that far from their work?

If I pick a job two hours from my house, do I get this special consideration?

As for the federal budget, I can think of a lot that should be changed..........

Better yet, how about the federal government just take less, and leave it to the states to solve their own problems with their own money?

Why do we have to send money to Washington to get their "blessing" on how to spend it? And beg them to give it back with instructions?

Sheldon 

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Are you serious here? Who told them to live 2 or more hours from their job?

On average a rush hour typically adds an hour each way in commute time for most major cities.   In Milwaukee there are folks that live in Downtown Milwaukee that work in downtown Chicago and thats a 90 min commute just on the train probably 2+ hours each way with waiting time.    The salaries downtown Chicago are approx 20-33% greater than what you can get paid in Milwaukee because the cost of living in Illinois is so much.    If you can spend the time on the train, pack a lunch and commute into Chicago, your comming out ahead.

By living near the train station in Milwaukee vs the suburbs of Milwaukee they are only adding perhaps 30-40 min to their daily commute by taking the train to Chicago.   On top of that some employers have green transit programs and will subsidize a METRA, Amtrak or City Bus system monthly pass instead of having employees drive into work.

If they are a consultant making the commute they can bill the 90 min on the train in each direction and count it as part of their 8 hour workshift, just by opening their laptop and doing work on the train using wi-fi or a portable hot spot.

I work an hour and a half flight time from my employer's city, they allow me a 3 hour allowance on Mondays and Fridays to bill towards work and cover the time of the flight.   When I have to fly in.   I can fly in as many weeks as I see fit or not at all if I see that is the case.    They pay for everything while I am out of state and on their work site, meals, lodging in a 3-4 star hotel, per diem, and transportation costs.   It's a good deal for me because they threw in a full pension on top which I would have relied entirely on my 401k prior.   So with the 401k and pension I will retire slightly above what I am getting paid now with COLA's until age 90.

Moral of the story is, when someone interviews you in your home town for an out of state position or a position that requires travel.   You should always look into it instead of saying NO.

Also on the early morning Monday flights and afternoon Friday flights back there are approx 7-8 BNSF Managers with laptops.   So I kind of think BNSF has a similar program for it's Fort Worth, TX employees to suppliment shortages in other parts of their network.   Could be just coincidence but I have a suspicion as it seems to be the same faces.

[7j43k]

People are ALREADY going 100 MPH on Highway 5.  If it becomes legal, they can spend less time looking in the rearview mirror, and more looking ahead.  Although, when they're looking for cops, they're at least spending more time being aware of traffic than SOME people I've seen driving.

The article talks about more lanes.  Oh, yeah!  For some reason, there's a goodly number of drivers who think, if they're going a long way, they should be in the left lane, no matter what speed they're going.  When one of those catches up to a person who just wants to drive slowly (perfectly acceptable), it turns into a rolling roadblock (Highway 5 is mostly 4 lanes).  I don't know about other states, but in California, if you've got 5 cars on your tail, it's the law that you must pull over to let them pass.  There appears to be a lot of people IN the state that don't know that.

 

Ed

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Are you serious here? Who told them to live 2 or more hours from their job?

 

 

On average a rush hour typically adds an hour each way in commute time for most major cities.   In Milwaukee there are folks that live in Downtown Milwaukee that work in downtown Chicago and thats a 90 min commute just on the train probably 2+ hours each way with waiting time.    The salaries downtown Chicago are approx 20-33% greater than what you can get paid in Milwaukee because the cost of living in Illinois is so much.    If you can spend the time on the train, pack a lunch and commute into Chicago, your comming out ahead.

By living near the train station in Milwaukee vs the suburbs of Milwaukee they are only adding perhaps 30-40 min to their daily commute by taking the train to Chicago.   On top of that some employers have green transit programs and will subsidize a METRA, Amtrak or City Bus system monthly pass instead of having employees drive into work.

If they are a consultant making the commute they can bill the 90 min on the train in each direction and count it as part of their 8 hour workshift, just by opening their laptop and doing work on the train using wi-fi or a portable hot spot.

I work an hour and a half flight time from my employer's city, they allow me a 3 hour allowance on Mondays and Fridays to bill towards work and cover the time of the flight.   When I have to fly in.   I can fly in as many weeks as I see fit or not at all if I see that is the case.    They pay for everything while I am out of state and on their work site, meals, lodging in a 3-4 star hotel, per diem, and transportation costs.   It's a good deal for me because they threw in a full pension on top which I would have relied entirely on my 401k prior.   So with the 401k and pension I will retire slightly above what I am getting paid now with COLA's until age 90.

Moral of the story is, when someone interviews you in your home town for an out of state position or a position that requires travel.   You should always look into it instead of saying NO.

Also on the early morning Monday flights and afternoon Friday flights back there are approx 7-8 BNSF Managers with laptops.   So I kind of think BNSF has a similar program for it's Fort Worth, TX employees to suppliment shortages in other parts of their network.   Could be just coincidence but I have a suspicion as it seems to be the same faces.

 

So if you don't mind, what is it that you do?

I have been to Milwaukee, I have a good sense of how far it is from Chicago. I would no sooner live in Milwaukee and work in Chicago than I would live here north of Baltimore and drive/commute to Washington DC every day.

But others do it.....good for them.

Still does not explain fully why others should pay to build them transportation. 

I'm not the corporate type, been locally self employed most of my life, really hate the idea of travel for work like describe. 

Now at age 61, I can keep doing what I'm doing for a few more years and be fine.

We all make choices, what works for one does not work for all. I actually worked in an office when I was young, got tired of that fast.

I have done a lot of different stuff, and always loved my jobs/businesses or moved on, unlike some people I have known who hated every day at work for 40 years.....

To each their own,

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

7j43k

People are ALREADY going 100 MPH on Highway 5.  If it becomes legal, they can spend less time looking in the rearview mirror, and more looking ahead.  Although, when they're looking for cops, they're at least spending more time being aware of traffic than SOME people I've seen driving.

The article talks about more lanes.  Oh, yeah!  For some reason, there's a goodly number of drivers who think, if they're going a long way, they should be in the left lane, no matter what speed they're going.  When one of those catches up to a person who just wants to drive slowly (perfectly acceptable), it turns into a rolling roadblock (Highway 5 is mostly 4 lanes).  I don't know about other states, but in California, if you've got 5 cars on your tail, it's the law that you must pull over to let them pass.  There appears to be a lot of people IN the state that don't know that.

 

Ed

 

Here in Maryland, and most of the east, there are no more "keep right" laws. Many highways have at least a few left side exits.

But most slower drivers do move over if/when they can.

The left lane pace on I-95 is pretty much 80 mph. 90 or agressiveness will get you a ticket. The posted limit is 65.

Sheldon

[spsffan]

7j43k

People are ALREADY going 100 MPH on Highway 5.  If it becomes legal, they can spend less time looking in the rearview mirror, and more looking ahead.  Although, when they're looking for cops, they're at least spending more time being aware of traffic than SOME people I've seen driving.

The article talks about more lanes.  Oh, yeah!  For some reason, there's a goodly number of drivers who think, if they're going a long way, they should be in the left lane, no matter what speed they're going.  When one of those catches up to a person who just wants to drive slowly (perfectly acceptable), it turns into a rolling roadblock (Highway 5 is mostly 4 lanes).  I don't know about other states, but in California, if you've got 5 cars on your tail, it's the law that you must pull over to let them pass.  There appears to be a lot of people IN the state that don't know that.

 

Ed

 

 

Well, I certainly know about the 5 cars behind you rule. It's the one question I missed back in 1978 when I first took the driver's test. I thought 3 was a better answer. 

 

But more to the point, yes, people do regularly drive, if not 100, certainly 90 mph on I-5. But only for a while until you get stuck behind a truck or cars going like 70, trying to pass a truck in the right lane that is doing 65. This happens over and over again on a typical trip. 

As far as it goes, yes there are people who have 2 hour commutes, and not just in the Silicon Valley area. It's a function of housing prices and wages. But I wouldn't expect a whole lot of them to take he HSR if it were built. The HSR would take some, of course, but mostly it would provide relief for the overtaxed highways and airports on the end points, plus, for the first time, a much better transportation option for intermediate points to the major population centers. 

[zugmann]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Here in Maryland, and most of the east, there are no more "keep right" laws. Many highways have at least a few left side exits.

Your neighbor to the north has that law (PA).  So does NJ.  There's exceptions, of course, but generally, stay to the right. 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

zugmann

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Here in Maryland, and most of the east, there are no more "keep right" laws. Many highways have at least a few left side exits.

 

 

Your neighbor to the north has that law (PA).  So does NJ.  There's exceptions, of course, but generally, stay to the right. 

 

And they have become the exception to what was once the rule. A rule that largely defeats the purpose of multi lane highways. And even in NJ and PA, from what I see, it is seldom enforced.

I can be in PA in 15 min, and NJ in 25 or 30, I've driven more than a couple miles in those states........

Maryland does have posted "slower traffic keep right" areas, and trucks are restricted from left lanes on sections of many highways.

But the idea that you should keep moving over to the right after you pass each slower vehicle is an obsolete idea, and many states have changed their laws and/or enforcement accordingly.

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course.

Just this evening I made a trip down and back up I-95 to suburban east Baltimore and back to my home in Havre de Grace. I cruised along at 80-85 for the most part, with only one or two cars not respecting the idea of slower traffic keeping right.

Sheldon 

 

[zugmann]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course.

Just do it BEFORE I have to adjust my speed, please.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

zugmann

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course.

 

 

Just do it BEFORE I have to adjust my speed, please.

 

Completely agreed!

 

[BaltACD]

zugmann

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course. 

Just do it BEFORE I have to adjust my speed, please.

and I suspect 'adaptive cruise control' will adjust your speed long before you would have adjusted your speed yourself.

If you are no actively passing or visiblily overtaking cars in the right lane - get in the right lane yourself.  If there is enough space betweeen cars in the right lane for someone to come up behind you and then pass you on the right and complete the pass by getting ahead of you in the left lane - YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE RIGHT LANE ALL THE TIME.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BaltACD

 

 

zugmann

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course. 

Just do it BEFORE I have to adjust my speed, please.

 

 

and I suspect 'adaptive cruise control' will adjust your speed long before you would have adjusted your speed yourself.

If you are no actively passing or visiblily overtaking cars in the right lane - get in the right lane yourself.  If there is enough space betweeen cars in the right lane for someone to come up behind you and then pass you on the right and complete the pass by getting ahead of you in the left lane - YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE RIGHT LANE ALL THE TIME.

 

Agreed, but typically like my trip tonight, as I cruised along at 80 plus in the left lane, I was consistantly overtaking cars/trucks in both right lanes.

If I saw a car gaining on me, I would speed up and/or find a hole to move over into.

When and if traffic volume reaches a lower level, I always move to the right if I can maintain my desired cruising speed.

My FLEX has adaptive cruise control, but I seldom use it for trips this short.

Sheldon

[zugmann]

BaltACD

and I suspect 'adaptive cruise control' will adjust your speed long before you would have adjusted your speed yourself.

I don't have that high tech stuff.

[7j43k]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

But the idea that you should keep moving over to the right after you pass each slower vehicle is an obsolete idea, and many states have changed their laws and/or enforcement accordingly.

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane - of course.

 

 

 

The latter seems to contradict the former.

But, yes:  I WAS today in the #2 of 4 lanes.  Traveling briskly.  No one coming up behind.  I could have moved to the right, but didn't.

So what.

But when you have FIVE cars behind you, as California law says, you have no excuse.  And, if other states have had similar laws and changed them, it's a sorry commentary on those states.  FIVE cars?  And the drivers are so clueless that they don't even know?  Or care?  Big ticket, in my world!

Ed

[zugmann]

5 cars?  Frankly, one is too many.  Get over.

[Convicted One]

7j43k

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane

If the car coming up behind you has no respect for the speed limit laws, then what objection should they have to passing on the right?

[BaltACD]

Convicted One

 

7j43k

BUT, does it make sense to move over if the way is clear and you see a car coming up behind you as you drive along in the left lane 

If the car coming up behind you has no respect for the speed limit laws, then what objection should they have to passing on the right?

If they are the only two cars on the road - no problem. 

If there is a moderate amount of traffic - being slower in the left lane than overtaking traffic creates a 'ripple' in the right lane as the faster left lane traffic reaches your rolling road block.  Most in the left lane will slow to give YOU an opportunity to move right, which then slows the entire left lane until it is felt by the first following driver that YOU are a road block and a right pass is done.  Vehicles further back in the left lane may read the situation quicker and 'pull the trigger' on a right pass before car one behind the YOUR road block makes his decision.  By being the road block in the left lane you are creating decisions among other drivers that don't need to be made if YOU were properly in the right lane.  This applies to dual lane highway.

Where there are three or more lanes in your direction a different ettiqute applies.

 

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

So if you don't mind, what is it that you do? I have been to Milwaukee, I have a good sense of how far it is from Chicago. I would no sooner live in Milwaukee and work in Chicago than I would live here north of Baltimore and drive/commute to Washington DC every day. But others do it.....good for them. Still does not explain fully why others should pay to build them transportation.  I'm not the corporate type, been locally self employed most of my life, really hate the idea of travel for work like describe.  Now at age 61, I can keep doing what I'm doing for a few more years and be fine. We all make choices, what works for one does not work for all. I actually worked in an office when I was young, got tired of that fast. I have done a lot of different stuff, and always loved my jobs/businesses or moved on, unlike some people I have known who hated every day at work for 40 years..... To each their own, Sheldon

I'm in Information Technology Big Data / Analytics is about as far as I can go.   My specific area is in heavy demand right now and they cannot find enough people to fill it anywhere in the country.  Demand even greater in fly-over country.

So outlining my personal experience with job search.   Also ties into this discussion because it is also a key point in California's reasoning to putting in the HSR system in the first place.    Silicon Valley is always tight with ability to hire good tech workers even with their current collusion with India to abuse the H1b VISA program to keep tech workers salaries low.   If Silicon Valley could tap the cheap living conditions of the valley and potentially cheap labor as well.   It could cut some of the paperwork costs with cheating our immigration system and instead use American property values in the Valley and potentially American labor to hold costs down instead of relying so heavily on Asia.

This would benefit the state of California MORE because it would increase poperty values in the valley.......raising property tax revenue.   Residents of the valley would have more job opportunities open to them which they allegedly would be greatful for and it would boost California GDP by increasing mobility as well as reducing inefficiencies by having open jobs in one part of the state and higher unemployment in another part of the state.     Thats the theory CA was acting on in part by routing HSR via the valley.    Same general theory with LA basin and extending the cheap / fast commute to the Valley from LA.    

Having the HSR just be within the borders of the Valley shreds a good part of the former dream of California HSR politicians.   Though there might still be benefits to having a Valley only system.

[CMStPnP]

Convicted One

If the car coming up behind you has no respect for the speed limit laws, then what objection should they have to passing on the right?

And since we were talking about importing the autobahn.   Gemans use the flash to pass signal with their headlights and you better abide by their polite request with the headlights because....

This is Federal Law in Germany and you need to pull over to the right and let faster vehicles pass.   Same on two lane farmer roads, Germans build "move - over" lanes, similar to rail passing sidings every so often on their two lane bi-directional roads.    Failure to move over and let faster vehicles pass is a $$$ fine in Germany and I heard it was steep.

BTW, caught DUI and refuse a sobriety test?  German Police can forceibly withdraw the blood roadside for the test.....also the law.

Flip a German Policeman the bird........hauled in for "disrespect" or fined on the spot.   Barvaria where our little mustached friend rose to power from (that everyone likes to bring back from the grave) is particularly nortorious for insisting on respect for police folks.

Just a few points that importing the autobahn without some of the German rules of the autobahn might also be messy. :)

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Passing on the right is perfectly legal on muti lane limited access highways.

This whole converstation is based around the idea of raising or eliminating speed limits in some places, and to some degree assumes the position that current speed limits are artificially low.

This morning on I-95 I passed a Maryland State Trooper parked in the median, I was going about 83 in a 65 zone, he could not be bothered. Enforcement sets the speed, not the statue.........

Sheldon

[YoHo1975]

Ugh, this thread. 2 pages of nothing related to the actual proposal on the table. A bunch of partisan bloviating and finally on page 3 we start talking actual boots on the ground reality in California.

•  This proposal is specially for I5 and more precisely for I5 between roughly the grapevine and Stockton. AKA, 200+ miles of absolute nothing.
• The proposal as I understand it would be to move from a 4 lane to a 6 lane highway with 1 lane being no speed limit.
• There's no small amount of truck traffic on I-5, but it's mostly long haul. the vast majority of local truck moves are on US99 or possible US101. Again though, this is to add a lane, so presumably existing truck traffic would stay as is.
• I can state categorically as reinforced by driving from Roseville to Anaheim and back last week that the average speed on this section of I5 in the left lane is easily around 80MPH and you will often get passed if you set cruise at that speed. This isn't LA or the bay. This is running outside of the major valley communities.
• Why would people live in the San Joaquin Valley and work in Silicon Valley? Because they would like to have a cost of living that is almost reasonable. The the Bay area in particular and the LA basin to a lesser extent are incredibly, remarkably expensive to live in. For young people and those in the service industry it can be impossible to afford to live in. So you move out to Tracy, Stockton and Beyond and you hope on a train or sit in a car for hours. I have a friend whose parents built a ranch house in Sunnyvale in the mid 50s for around $55k, When his mom died a few years back, they were able to sell that same house for 1.2million...the house was then torn down and a 6 figure McMansion built on the spot. "Normal" people don't live in Silicon Valley.

 

• As to the HSR component. The theory behind it is a perfect example of where government programs could do the most good. There are not specific set of business interests that alone could benefit from this given the costs, but a huge number of people would benefit if it did exist. And so Government steps in. The issue has ALWAYS been the section to the North and South. Getting HSR over the mountains and then figuring out where it's going in the Basin and then up on to the Pennisula through well heeled expensive neighborhoods was a monumental task. The sections with the fewest route miles were going to be the largest cost by an order of magnitude. But even the sections envisioned could have outsized value. For a number of years The Rail Authority has been talking about using this sectio of the HSR in conjunction with existing Freight/Amtrak lines. From Merced in particular, accessing points north on the existing Coridors is reasonably trivial. This would make the San Joaquins in particular even more attractive. Getting down into LA is significantly hard of course. I think upgrading the Bay area is challenging, but there are politically realistic possibilities that would create a service significantly faster than current. I think there's no solution to getting from the Central Valley into the LA Basin at anything approaching usable speed that doesn't involve a new railroad over the mountains. I suppose with the additional capacity over Tehachapi it might not be quite as bad as it was...though BNSF built that for a reason. It's not idle capacity. I'm honestly curious what a couple billion in custom equipment and proper track maintenance could do for the coast line. Certainly not HSR, but what could be done with the HSR money on that line LA to San Jose. What would be the end result?

[Convicted One]

BaltACD

By being the road block in the left lane you are creating decisions among other drivers that don't need to be made if YOU were properly in the right lane

"Properly" is an interesting concept in this case. Am I the only one who sees the paradox in these people crowing about the need for other drivers to observe so called "slowpoke laws" Just so their own desire to break speed limit laws is not interfered with?

Personally, I am not one to languish in the left hand lane, unless I have a left turn coming up,  in which case I could care less how big of a hurry the guy behind me happens to believe that he is in. I've had too many instances where other drivers are too busy getting where they are going to allow me to merge infront of them, causing me to miss my turn all together.  So, first chance I get within two miles of my turn to occupy the left lane, I'm taking it. Don't care how pretty the driver behind me thinks his hi-beams are. 

[Convicted One]

CMStPnP

Just a few points that importing the autobahn without some of the German rules of the autobahn might also be messy. :)

Strictly in the context of autobahn-like unlimited speed highways, I agree completely. The discussion by some had veered into a debate about "existing laws on existing highways" and their seeming perspective that the road somehow belonged to them and they only shared it with others as a courtesy....was what I was responding to.

[Deggesty]

As to the necessity of making left turns, back when I was in the world of  a five day week work, I made use of a three lane limited access highway for the greater part of my travel to and from work--and I made left turns to get off the highway. Knowing the reluctance of other people to let prospective left-turners move to the proper lane, I would move over well in advance.

I was also amused, especially in the morning, by the behavior of many others. Every mile or so, I would come to a cross street and its traffic light. In the morning, the lights would be set for traffic in the direction opposite to mine--and I would be passed by many who did not understand how the lights were set--and I would pass them at the next light without having to even slow down. Think if the wear on brakes and saving on gasoline by traveling as fast as the traffic lights permitted.

[7j43k]

Convicted One

Am I the only one who sees the paradox in these people crowing about the need for other drivers to observe so called "slowpoke laws" Just so their own desire to break speed limit laws is not interfered with? 

 

The head of the California Highway Patrol has said: slower traffic keep to the right.  When it was pointed out that the faster traffic was speeding, he said: slower traffic keep to the right.

I guess he just doesn't see the paradox.

 

Ed

[Convicted One]

7j43k

I guess he just doesn't see the paradox

Well, by gawrsh, if it was the head of the California Highway Patrol behind me, I'd pull over and let him pass!

[Convicted One]

• I guess I can appreciate his position, however.                                                   Any driver driving the legal speed limit in the left lane could put a serious hurt on speeding ticket revenues.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

So if you don't mind, what is it that you do? I have been to Milwaukee, I have a good sense of how far it is from Chicago. I would no sooner live in Milwaukee and work in Chicago than I would live here north of Baltimore and drive/commute to Washington DC every day. But others do it.....good for them. Still does not explain fully why others should pay to build them transportation.  I'm not the corporate type, been locally self employed most of my life, really hate the idea of travel for work like describe.  Now at age 61, I can keep doing what I'm doing for a few more years and be fine. We all make choices, what works for one does not work for all. I actually worked in an office when I was young, got tired of that fast. I have done a lot of different stuff, and always loved my jobs/businesses or moved on, unlike some people I have known who hated every day at work for 40 years..... To each their own, Sheldon

 

 

I'm in Information Technology Big Data / Analytics is about as far as I can go.   My specific area is in heavy demand right now and they cannot find enough people to fill it anywhere in the country.  Demand even greater in fly-over country.

So outlining my personal experience with job search.   Also ties into this discussion because it is also a key point in California's reasoning to putting in the HSR system in the first place.    Silicon Valley is always tight with ability to hire good tech workers even with their current collusion with India to abuse the H1b VISA program to keep tech workers salaries low.   If Silicon Valley could tap the cheap living conditions of the valley and potentially cheap labor as well.   It could cut some of the paperwork costs with cheating our immigration system and instead use American property values in the Valley and potentially American labor to hold costs down instead of relying so heavily on Asia.

This would benefit the state of California MORE because it would increase poperty values in the valley.......raising property tax revenue.   Residents of the valley would have more job opportunities open to them which they allegedly would be greatful for and it would boost California GDP by increasing mobility as well as reducing inefficiencies by having open jobs in one part of the state and higher unemployment in another part of the state.     Thats the theory CA was acting on in part by routing HSR via the valley.    Same general theory with LA basin and extending the cheap / fast commute to the Valley from LA.    

Having the HSR just be within the borders of the Valley shreds a good part of the former dream of California HSR politicians.   Though there might still be benefits to having a Valley only system.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful and interesting response and for sharing what you can about your occupation.

I do understand the dynamic of the "bedroom community" issue for those types of workers. Still not sure who should pay, or not pay, to get them to work......?

And again, based on your reply, I'm so happy I never worked for any big companies......

At age 20, in 1977, I took a job as a junior draftsman with Baltimore Aircoil Company, the worlds largest manufacturer of cooling towers. Their home office is right here in - Baltimore..... After only three days, I was having conflicts with the "system", through no malicious intent on my part.

I had few clothes in my wardrobe that met their dress code (the other engineering office I had worked in had casual standards), lunch was like grammer school, the bell rang and off to the lunch room they marched.

I was not thrilled with the idea of putting a parking sticker on my freshly restored 1963 Nova SS convertible........

The best was the morning ritual - company provided coffee and doughnuts that you were expected to be present for 15 miuntes before your "offical" work day - but here was the catch. I don't drink coffee, not then, not now 42 years later, but they would not allow any other beverages on the drafting department production floor - so I guess no doughnuts for me..........just 15 minutes of my time wasted.....

So after other workers complained about my dress code "violations", and I could get no traction on getting a Coke or an OJ in the morning, I called back another outfit that had offered me a job - they said "we would still love to have you".

So the next morning I gathered my personal drafting equipment, walked out of the drafting department and down to HR and into the HR directors office. I announced my departure from their fine establishment, saying "You can send me the three days pay, or you can keep it, but I can't work here. You are not paying me enough to buy clothes to work here, and I have not been treated like this since the third grade."

The woman was a bit upset, and asked me to sit down and explain, which I did.

Basicly I was told that these issues were not negotiable, and I said good day.....

From that point on in my life, the biggest companies I ever worked for were construction outfits or engineering consultants with maybe 60 employees.

In less than two years I was a lead construction project manager/in house designer draftsman for a well established electrical contractor in Baltimore, managing multi million dollar commercial and industrial projects.

Today I restore old houses, do custom residential design work, and custom high end remodeling. I work as both the designer/project manger and as part of our team of craftsman.

I can't even imagine a life of commuting and cubicals......my resume includes about a dozen different job descriptions/trades/skills in the last 44 years. 

I have been self employed in several different fields for 2/3rds of my adult life. 

Sheldon

 

 

[zardoz]

zugmann

5 cars?  Frankly, one is too many.  Get over.

 

While you're busy looking in the mirror, trying to count how many vehicles are behind you, what are you missing in front of you?

 

[zugmann]

zardoz

While you're busy looking in the mirror, trying to count how many vehicles are behind you, what are you missing in front of you?

Doesn't take but a quick glance to see if someone is behind you.

 

And thus is why we will never have autobahn-type roads in this country.

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I have been self employed in several different fields for 2/3rds of my adult life. 

So I've worked for large companies, as a government contractor, small companies (mom and pop less than 100 employees), and even ran my own franchised sub shop which I closed.   

Now people say here because I closed it, it was a failure but it was my choice to close it and I closed it gracefully.   First attempting to find a buyer, then attempting to sell back to franchise for $1.   Then closing it, and paying all creditors in full.......still had money left after closing.   So happy closing and I did not go bankrupt nor did it cause me financial distress in other areas.   I could have been really stupid and kept the doors open and run it another year or two then borrowed money for another 3 years.   End result is it was marginally profitable at very best and not worth the hours I was putting in for the money made.   

I have another growing surplus in my 401k so I get to try my hand at another business after retirement when I have a pension comming in at least.   Even if I went bankrupt, having my own business with 15-20 employees was the best business experience, learned a lot.   More than willing to try again but never again in the restaurant business.........too much work and not enough rewards.

[YoHo1975]

Convicted One

• I guess I can appreciate his position, however.                                                   Any driver driving the legal speed limit in the left lane could put a serious hurt on speeding ticket revenues.

 

 

The next time I see CHP ticketing a Speeder on I5 will be the first time. Ponch don't write speeding tickets in SoCal and the Central Valley. Sometimes up north here, but never down south. I5 is something that must be endured and gotten overwith as quickly as possible. CHP knows this. 

[YoHo1975]

On employment. Its nice and all that people are self employed and get to fully chose where they live and work, but stop right now and realize that you are by far the exception not the rule. You can be incredulous that people put up with that lack of freedom, but they do and you best think about passenger rail and commuting in terms of that reality, not in terms of your narrow view. For example, being in home restoration is likely broadly considered a construction job yes? in 2012, that was 4.2% of the US population. https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2012/03/pm-jobs-whatwedo/gr-pm-whatwedo2012b-462.jpg Not to be overtly political, but look at the percentage of logging and mining...makes you wonder why anyone cares what coal miners think. (Trick question, we care, because they are concentrated in a small number of low population states and so have power....if they all lived and worked n California or New York nobody would ever care about coal miner. Sad but true) My point being that your anecdotes about your employment are just that, anecdotes and only have value if you compare them to what is typical. You aren't doing that. What is Typical is what is most important if we want to spend money where it will be most impactful.

[charlie hebdo]

zugmann

 

 

zardoz

While you're busy looking in the mirror, trying to count how many vehicles are behind you, what are you missing in front of you?

 

 

Doesn't take but a quick glance to see if someone is behind you.

 

And thus is why we will never have autobahn-type roads in this country.

 

News flash!  There are many stretches on the German Autobahnen that have speed limits.  And the congestion in many areas makes the "unlimited speed" notion a thing of the past.  I saw some evidence of this 20 years ago and it's worse now.

[zugmann]

charlie hebdo

I saw some evidence of this 20 years ago and it's worse now.

Our german language textbooks in high school wrote about that.  And they still had maps of both germanies in them.

[Convicted One]

YoHo1975

The next time I see CHP ticketing a Speeder on I5 will be the first time.

Many might be inclined to interpret the comment Ed cited as made by the head of CHP as some kind of endorsement for their "right" to speed. That is, IMO, self indulgent thinking. He never said anything of the sort. 

I've never seen nor even heard of anyone getting a "slow poke" ticket either,  but as they say: ~absence of proof is not proof of absence~

It's casually amusing to read here the same members you can always depend upon to post demeaning comments about lawless RR crossing cheaters, or RR ROW tresspassers... suddenly defending their right to live on the wild side. 

I guess repect for the law can be arbitrary and capricious, depending upon who is being measured? 

[Convicted One]

Don't get me wrong, the last time I drove across AZ on I-40, the mileposts were 26 seconds apart for a good long way....I'm  no slouch behind the wheel.

But these control freaks who believe their priorities  are something I need to subordinate myself to, fail to intimidate me....so sorry.

[n012944]

Convicted One

I've never seen nor even heard of anyone getting a "slow poke" ticket either,  but as they say: ~absence of proof is not proof of absence~

 

 

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2018/06/18/state-trooper-tickets-driver-slowpoke-left-lane-law-interstate/709386002/

[CMStPnP]

YoHo1975

On employment. Its nice and all that people are self employed and get to fully chose where they live and work, but stop right now and realize that you are by far the exception not the rule. You can be incredulous that people put up with that lack of freedom, but they do and you best think about passenger rail and commuting in terms of that reality, not in terms of your narrow view. For example, being in home restoration is likely broadly considered a construction job yes? in 2012, that was 4.2% of the US population. https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2012/03/pm-jobs-whatwedo/gr-pm-whatwedo2012b-462.jpg Not to be overtly political, but look at the percentage of logging and mining...makes you wonder why anyone cares what coal miners think. (Trick question, we care, because they are concentrated in a small number of low population states and so have power....if they all lived and worked n California or New York nobody would ever care about coal miner. Sad but true) My point being that your anecdotes about your employment are just that, anecdotes and only have value if you compare them to what is typical. You aren't doing that. What is Typical is what is most important if we want to spend money where it will be most impactful.

 

A coal miner directly benefits from upward mobility as well as transportation mobility of another class of worker regardless of restrictions on their specific occupation.......which was the point you missed.    Because if even a sliver of the population can be more productive via travel it will increase GDP for all.   Increased GDP for the coal miner means a more solvent SS system, lower national debt, etc.   It impacts the coal miners finances directly.

We may not share occupations but we all share the economy and benefit when it expands faster.

[CMStPnP]

charlie hebdo

News flash!  There are many stretches on the German Autobahnen that have speed limits.  And the congestion in many areas makes the "unlimited speed" notion a thing of the past.  I saw some evidence of this 20 years ago and it's worse now.

Even if the speeds were as low as they are in the United States, German Autobahn is still of superior construction compared to our interstate system.   Our interstate system has a 20 year rated life span between renewals.   Autobahn is 40 years.    I suspect that is because the Autobahn really was built to support national defense needs vs it just being a slogan.

In regards to restricted speeds typically in congested areas the fastest left lane is reduced to 75 to 80 mph.    Sorry but I don't have a posted speed that high through downtown Dallas.   In comparison, even with restricted speeds as a general rule the autobahn has a faster limit.    Now we can argue about rush hours, spectacular accidents, and traffic congestion which might bring speeds lower but normal operation...........I vote the autobahn better.

[charlie hebdo]

+1 No question about that.  

[7j43k]

Convicted One

Many might be inclined to interpret the comment Ed cited as made by the head of CHP as some kind of endorsement for their "right" to speed. That is, IMO, self indulgent thinking. He never said anything of the sort. 

 

Quite true.  He did not.  But he DID say what I said he said.

I've never seen nor even heard of anyone getting a "slow poke" ticket either,  but as they say: ~absence of proof is not proof of absence~

I have.

It's casually amusing to read here the same members you can always depend upon to post demeaning comments about lawless RR crossing cheaters, or RR ROW tresspassers... suddenly defending their right to live on the wild side. 

I guess repect for the law can be arbitrary and capricious, depending upon who is being measured? 

Are they demeaning them for being lawless, or demeaning them for something else?  I tend to demean people hit at RR crossings not because they were violating the laws of man, but because they were attempting to violate the laws of physics.

 

Ed

[Convicted One]

7j43k

ot because they were violating the laws of man, but because they were attempting to violate the laws of physics.  

You're rationalizing there, IMO.

I think that it's human nature, partly, to believe laws exist to regulate "everyone else"...or at least for us to be more aware that a law has been violated when the perp is someone other than ourselves. I could give examples, but it would be boring, suffice it to say I am certain that a dual stardard exists. 

[7j43k]

Convicted One

 

 

7j43k

ot because they were violating the laws of man, but because they were attempting to violate the laws of physics.  

 

 

You're rationalizing there, IMO.

rationalize: attempt to explain or justify with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.

Where, in what I said in the quote, could you possibly find something you know is not true or not appropriate?

You DID say:  "IMO".  Which then implies your opinion is based on nothing.  Not a good look.

I think that it's human nature, partly, to believe laws exist to regulate "everyone else"...or at least for us to be more aware that a law has been violated when the perp is someone other than ourselves. I could give examples, but it would be boring, suffice it to say I am certain that a dual stardard exists. 

Well, no.  You'd have to be pretty thick to "believe laws exist to regulate 'everyone else'...".  Because if that were true, the laws would all include the line: "Except for Bob".  They don't.  And everyone knows they don't.

The laws are clearly for everyone.  But THEN the philosophical discussion begins......

I agree that using the word "philosophical" may be way too generous for many.

 

Ed

 

[YoHo1975]

CMStPnP

 

 

YoHo1975

On employment. Its nice and all that people are self employed and get to fully chose where they live and work, but stop right now and realize that you are by far the exception not the rule. You can be incredulous that people put up with that lack of freedom, but they do and you best think about passenger rail and commuting in terms of that reality, not in terms of your narrow view. For example, being in home restoration is likely broadly considered a construction job yes? in 2012, that was 4.2% of the US population. https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2012/03/pm-jobs-whatwedo/gr-pm-whatwedo2012b-462.jpg Not to be overtly political, but look at the percentage of logging and mining...makes you wonder why anyone cares what coal miners think. (Trick question, we care, because they are concentrated in a small number of low population states and so have power....if they all lived and worked n California or New York nobody would ever care about coal miner. Sad but true) My point being that your anecdotes about your employment are just that, anecdotes and only have value if you compare them to what is typical. You aren't doing that. What is Typical is what is most important if we want to spend money where it will be most impactful.

 

 

 

A coal miner directly benefits from upward mobility as well as transportation mobility of another class of worker regardless of restrictions on their specific occupation.......which was the point you missed.    Because if even a sliver of the population can be more productive via travel it will increase GDP for all.   Increased GDP for the coal miner means a more solvent SS system, lower national debt, etc.   It impacts the coal miners finances directly.

We may not share occupations but we all share the economy and benefit when it expands faster.

 

 

I don't believe I missed any of that, in fact it reinforces my point. My point being that judging the value of a piece of transportation infrastructure based on only ones own circumstance is rather useless, especially if ones own circumstances are atypical.

 

My comment on coal miners was merely a throw away aside based on the graph which put mine workers at such a low percentage of the work force that they rounded down to 0%. That they benefit from improvements that target others for the reasons you state is of course true and I see nothing to disagree about there.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

OK, having carefully considered the idea that HSR would increase productivity, I still have the following questions, concerns:

How do we know it will increase productivity? Or, will it just improve the quality of life for the users with no increase in their productivity? How can we assume they will use their time on the train for work on their lap tops rather than just play games, sleep, talk to their friends or cruise facebook? Or that the improved commute will measurably increase their produtivity at work?

I think this assumption is based on beliefs about human nature/behavior that are not really "facts in evidence".

And if it does increase their productivity will that growth cover the cost of the project? Even if it was a net zero gain I could be in favor of it from a quality of life standpoint, not just for the riders but for those on the highways that would benefit from reduced traffic.

One view would be we are going to spend this money somewhere, so this is a good project for the given reasons. 

My view would be if we don't spend it here for good reasons, and it cannot "pay" its own way, it should remain in the hands of the tax payers, raising their standard of living, improving their quality of life, and "possibly" increasing their productivity, or not.

As for the proposed highway improvements and speed changes, I am generally in favor of higher speeds on limited access highways, which I think could be done nationwide on a case by case basis with minimal cost. And it would have measurable benefits. Just my view. No multi million dollar study was conducted to reach these findings - just common sense and 46 years of driving experiance, with a nearly spotless driving record, a fair percentage of which, 8 years, was driving a commercial vehicle every day.

I am also in favor of reasonably strict speed/traffic inforcement on secondary roads where most accidents and injuries actually happen.......put down your phones people......stay out of the bars.........

Sheldon

 

 

 

[CMStPnP]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

OK, having carefully considered the idea that HSR would increase productivity, I still have the following questions, concerns: How do we know it will increase productivity? Or, will it just improve the quality of life for the users with no increase in their productivity? How can we assume they will use their time on the train for work on their lap tops rather than just play games, sleep, talk to their friends or cruise facebook? Or that the improved commute will measurably increase their produtivity at work? I think this assumption is based on beliefs about human nature/behavior that are not really "facts in evidence". And if it does increase their productivity will that growth cover the cost of the project? Even if it was a net zero gain I could be in favor of it from a quality of life standpoint, not just for the riders but for those on the highways that would benefit from reduced traffic.

Several school of economics have done studies on this.   I believe this issue came up before and I quoted or linked to a London School of Economics study.   The poster reaction was quite humorous.....very few read what I linked to but most discounted the results right away and it was clear among those that actually read the study they only skimmed or did not read it cover to cover.   I think one of the comments was Europe is different than America which is roughly analogous to saying a European rat in maze would behave differently than an American rat in a maze and the type of cheese used makes all the difference in the world.    So it was one of those posts that made me give up on using any kind of economic rationale in Trains forum to defend HSR. 

However, it is not just ANY HSR project (as the study noted) that you see a change or preference for the HSR option.    The HSR option in a humans mind must be faster and more convienient than other transportation choices available.   So it could very well be that a newly designed airport and airline travel beats the HSR option if the airline travel choice is faster and more convienent or even better priced for example.

Convienience with trains and airlines is usually measured by access to and frequency of trips between point A and point B.    Then price also plays a role.  the HSR option also has to be competitively priced with other options while offering the time and convience advantage.

As for the human activity on the train, for the purposes of the study it really does not matter.   If you reach point A from point B on a faster mode of travel your going to have more time in a day to do other things many of which trigger economic activity.   liesure activitives trigger economic activity just as well as working on a laptop on a train.    If I can expand my liesure time from work 1-2 hours a day via HSR........I am still more productive even though I am not working because I have that additional 1-2 hours available for working if I need it.  If I used it for liesure I still can trigger economic activity that might not otherwise take place like..........going out for a movie,  going out to eat in a restaurant, watching a movie on Pay Per View, etc.    I don't have to actually work to generate more spending per day.   Though more spending per day will at some point generate a move to a higher paying job to pay for it or another downstream economic choice that will feed the cycle.

What they found with the LSOE study was people moved to live closer to HSR stations that provided a competitive edge over other transportation modes.   These people paid more in rent or property value to live close to the HSR station (higher taxes on each) and these people chose the HSR option over others due to convienence, price and train frequency.   Also noted in the study was that people that moved closer to HSR stations also enjoyed a higher level of income than those that did not.    However, and again, key was the specific HSR system being studied was priced competitively with other options of travel, had high train frequency and offered ease of access to the trains.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

YoHo1975

On employment. Its nice and all that people are self employed and get to fully chose where they live and work, but stop right now and realize that you are by far the exception not the rule. You can be incredulous that people put up with that lack of freedom, but they do and you best think about passenger rail and commuting in terms of that reality, not in terms of your narrow view. For example, being in home restoration is likely broadly considered a construction job yes? in 2012, that was 4.2% of the US population. https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2012/03/pm-jobs-whatwedo/gr-pm-whatwedo2012b-462.jpg Not to be overtly political, but look at the percentage of logging and mining...makes you wonder why anyone cares what coal miners think. (Trick question, we care, because they are concentrated in a small number of low population states and so have power....if they all lived and worked n California or New York nobody would ever care about coal miner. Sad but true) My point being that your anecdotes about your employment are just that, anecdotes and only have value if you compare them to what is typical. You aren't doing that. What is Typical is what is most important if we want to spend money where it will be most impactful.

 

We all make choices....

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Deleted duplicate post

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CMStPnP

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

OK, having carefully considered the idea that HSR would increase productivity, I still have the following questions, concerns: How do we know it will increase productivity? Or, will it just improve the quality of life for the users with no increase in their productivity? How can we assume they will use their time on the train for work on their lap tops rather than just play games, sleep, talk to their friends or cruise facebook? Or that the improved commute will measurably increase their produtivity at work? I think this assumption is based on beliefs about human nature/behavior that are not really "facts in evidence". And if it does increase their productivity will that growth cover the cost of the project? Even if it was a net zero gain I could be in favor of it from a quality of life standpoint, not just for the riders but for those on the highways that would benefit from reduced traffic.

 

 

Several school of economics have done studies on this.   I believe this issue came up before and I quoted or linked to a London School of Economics study.   The poster reaction was quite humorous.....very few read what I linked to but most discounted the results right away and it was clear among those that actually read the study they only skimmed or did not read it cover to cover.   I think one of the comments was Europe is different than America which is roughly analogous to saying a European rat in maze would behave differently than an American rat in a maze and the type of cheese used makes all the difference in the world.    So it was one of those posts that made me give up on using any kind of economic rationale in Trains forum to defend HSR. 

However, it is not just ANY HSR project (as the study noted) that you see a change or preference for the HSR option.    The HSR option in a humans mind must be faster and more convienient than other transportation choices available.   So it could very well be that a newly designed airport and airline travel beats the HSR option if the airline travel choice is faster and more convienent or even better priced for example.

Convienience with trains and airlines is usually measured by access to and frequency of trips between point A and point B.    Then price also plays a role.  the HSR option also has to be competitively priced with other options while offering the time and convience advantage.

As for the human activity on the train, for the purposes of the study it really does not matter.   If you reach point A from point B on a faster mode of travel your going to have more time in a day to do other things many of which trigger economic activity.   liesure activitives trigger economic activity just as well as working on a laptop on a train.    If I can expand my liesure time from work 1-2 hours a day via HSR........I am still more productive even though I am not working because I have that additional 1-2 hours available for working if I need it.  If I used it for liesure I still can trigger economic activity that might not otherwise take place like..........going out for a movie,  going out to eat in a restaurant, watching a movie on Pay Per View, etc.    I don't have to actually work to generate more spending per day.   Though more spending per day will at some point generate a move to a higher paying job to pay for it or another downstream economic choice that will feed the cycle.

What they found with the LSOE study was people moved to live closer to HSR stations that provided a competitive edge over other transportation modes.   These people paid more in rent or property value to live close to the HSR station (higher taxes on each) and these people chose the HSR option over others due to convienence, price and train frequency.   Also noted in the study was that people that moved closer to HSR stations also enjoyed a higher level of income than those that did not.    However, and again, key was the specific HSR system being studied was priced competitively with other options of travel, had high train frequency and offered ease of access to the trains.

 

OK.

Clearly I am not the average rat in the maze....

My business ventures have either been just me, or had less than 6 employees.

Currently I have only two employees, and when we do big projects, I have some subcontractors, who are long time business accociates and friends.

Still pretty comfortable in my paid for house, driving my paid for cars, playing with my paid for model trains.

I will leave the "race" to the other rats.......

Sheldon

[Convicted One]

7j43k

Where, in what I said in the quote, could you possibly find something you know is not true or not appropriate?

Should I then justify a militant occupation of the left lane as a  goodwill gesture ambitioned towards preserving the health of would-be speeders who might otherwise do themselves harm?  

[7j43k]

Convicted One

 

 

7j43k

Where, in what I said in the quote, could you possibly find something you know is not true or not appropriate?

 

 

Should I then justify a militant occupation of the left lane as a  goodwill gesture ambitioned towards preserving the health of would-be speeders who might otherwise do themselves harm?  

 

 

That is not the first time I've heard that sentiment stated.

I think the CHP guy suggested strongly that that was not a good idea.  Probably in response to that sentiment.

So.  The answer is "No".

What's your answer to MY question?

 

Ed

 

[zardoz]

CMStPnP

German Autobahn is still of superior construction compared to our interstate system.   Our interstate system has a 20 year rated life span between renewals.   Autobahn is 40 years.    I suspect that is because the Autobahn really was built to support national defense needs vs it just being a slogan.

My understanding was that the German (and other European) roads are superior, at least partly, due to the guarantee construction companies are requred to provide regarding longevity: if it breaks or wears out prematurely, the construction company fixes it at their cost. In this way, shoddy construction is not a good way to generate future repair contracts.

[zardoz]

Convicted One

a militant occupation of the left lane as a  goodwill gesture ambitioned towards preserving the health of would-be speeders who might otherwise do themselves harm

Who will save us from our "saviors"?

[Convicted One]

7j43k

What's your answer to MY question?

Actually, that WAS my answer to your question, think about it. (Your stated   definition of "rationalize" was a bit narrow). One cannot "cheat" physics.

For the record, I enjoy your posts, don't let the fact that we don't always agree make you  suspect otherwise.

[Convicted One]

zardoz

Who will save us from our "saviors"?

Just blink your highbeams at them, and they will know you are a safe driver and pull over.  

[7j43k]

Back at ya.

My definition was from a dictionary.  Those definitions are supposed to reflect common usage.  So don't blame me.  Blame either everyone else who speaks English, or the folks who wrote the definition.

Actually, one CAN cheat physics.  One way is through imagination.  Another way is to leave this world.  The latter can happen, conveniently, if you place your vehicle in front of an approaching train.

 

Ed

[Convicted One]

7j43k

Another way is to leave this world

I'll bet the commute time suxxors majorly

[Convicted One]

7j43k

My definition was from a dictionary.

You didn't sincerely believe that the laws of physics were in jeopardy, did you?

[7j43k]

Convicted One

 

 

7j43k

My definition was from a dictionary.

 

 

You didn't sincerely believe that the laws of physics were in jeapordy, did you?

 

 

"There's alway somethin'", to quote a famous someone.

I just read another article about particle physics.  THERE'S a lawless land.  Sort of.

 

 

Ed

[BaltACD]

[7j43k]

Below, W. C. Fields in has chapter of the movie "If I had a Million":

 

 

In it, he delivers the great line:  "How did you like that, you great snorting roadhog!"

 

And now, the master:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0JFb3aJFc

 

 

Ed