https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/amtraks-second-fire-sale-in-a-year/
An interesting opinion piece from Railway Age.
Something I can't really figure out is this:
"Also, what doesn’t help Amtrak is how it has lost its most experienced management from buyouts and layoffs, thus paralyzing the operation, as it pays top-dollar salaries to new entrants to learn the business and the industry."
Can someone explain how this relates to the Amtrak we all know and love? Precious little of any of this in what actually seems to be happening there.
Overmod Something I can't really figure out is this: "Also, what doesn’t help Amtrak is how it has lost its most experienced management from buyouts and layoffs, thus paralyzing the operation, as it pays top-dollar salaries to new entrants to learn the business and the industry." Can someone explain how this relates to the Amtrak we all know and love? Precious little of any of this in what actually seems to be happening there.
A key point, which an outsider would not know, is the depth of Amtrak's management bench. Sometimes the departure of the old dogs produces a better outcome than if they stayed. Oftentimes people get stale in a job, and their departure benefits the organization.
The large corporation that I worked for was talent rich, in no small part because we were paid very well. We had 3 to 5 qualified people for every senior professional and management position. Replacing people who left - few did - with equally well qualified or better qualified people was not an issue.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1 Overmod Something I can't really figure out is this: "Also, what doesn’t help Amtrak is how it has lost its most experienced management from buyouts and layoffs, thus paralyzing the operation, as it pays top-dollar salaries to new entrants to learn the business and the industry." Can someone explain how this relates to the Amtrak we all know and love? Precious little of any of this in what actually seems to be happening there. A key point, which an outsider would not know, is the depth of Amtrak's management bench. Sometimes the departure of the old dogs produces a better outcome than if they stayed. Oftentimes people get stale in a job, and their departure benefits the organization. The large corporation that I worked for was talent rich, in no small part because we were paid very well. We had 3 to 5 qualified people for every senior professional and management position. Replacing people who left - few did - with equally well qualified or better qualified people was not an issue.
Management qualification is in the eye of the beer holder.
No two people have the same idea of what 'qualified' actually means. What may be qualified to you, may be disqualified to me and vice versa. There is nothing more subjective than 'qualifications' when it comes to management.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Management qualification is in the eye of the beer holder. No two people have the same idea of what 'qualified' actually means. What may be qualified to you, may be disqualified to me and vice versa. There is nothing more subjective than 'qualifications' when it comes to management.
The Fortune 200 Corporations that I worked for – three – had robust management succession programs. They were based on relatively objective criteria that were heavily weighted by past performance. And they were put together with the help of some of the nation’s premier consultants.
Our management succession programs were not based mostly on subjective criteria. Most of the people that got to senior management or executive positions had extraordinary skills. Most of them worked hard to produce the results that helped them stand out. In addition, they learned how to play the game, which involves some political skills, but if they could not deliver the results, their political skills were for naught.
Since you did not work for the Fortune 200 corporations that I was associated with; how would you know what criteria were important for advancement?
PJS1 BaltACD Management qualification is in the eye of the beer holder. No two people have the same idea of what 'qualified' actually means. What may be qualified to you, may be disqualified to me and vice versa. There is nothing more subjective than 'qualifications' when it comes to management. Most large corporations, at least the ones that I worked for, have sophisticated management succession programs. They were based on relatively objective criteria that were heavily weighted by past performance. And they were put together with the help of some of the nation’s premier consultants. Our management succession programs were not based mostly on subjective criteria, although it played a minor role in some instances. Since you did not work for the Fortune 200 corporations that I was associated with; how would you know?
Most large corporations, at least the ones that I worked for, have sophisticated management succession programs. They were based on relatively objective criteria that were heavily weighted by past performance. And they were put together with the help of some of the nation’s premier consultants.
Our management succession programs were not based mostly on subjective criteria, although it played a minor role in some instances.
Since you did not work for the Fortune 200 corporations that I was associated with; how would you know?
No. I was only associated with a Fortune mid-to-low 200's corporation that got hoodwinked by Mantle Ridge's promise of looting the cash register - which threw out any succession plan that had been in place. No matter how much care is placed in the succession plan - until the person is in the new job for a period of time you still don't know if he is worth two turds, and even then they may set the wheels in motion so that they are gone before the full effect of their misfeasence falls on their successor. Management games are fun to observe from a distance.
BaltACD until the person is in the new job for a period of time you still don't know if he is worth two turds, and even then they may set the wheels in motion so that they are gone before the full effect of their misfeasence falls on their successor. Management games are fun to observe from a distance.
My experience is a lot closer to your experience....
I have personally seen that outside the railroad industry with Hewlett-Packard, IBM, General Motors, etc.
Here is what I think is rather humourous example about being an Executive. anyone reading this can claim to be an Executive and hook-up with an Executive Recruiter and eventually become one.....period. Yes, it happens that way. Both examples I witnessed were hired by a Verizon subsidiary and then later fired for being fairly useless (one CEO and one Marketing President). Now I watched once after the Marketing President was fired. She did not mention the dismissal on her later resume, instead she became a "management consultant". Then she started her own management consulting company and walla.........she was an Executive Candidate again. Thats how some gain experience and entry as an Executive with not a whole lot of prior experience. I watched her off and on and in less than three years she was back in a Executive Position. Hopefully she trully learned the job by then.
Now having said that. I have worked with Senior Executives at large companies and sometimes I see an intelligent person, other times I see a moron that should not be a CEO. Some of the Executives have been delegating all their lives they are quite stupid in any area other than picking people and delegating. I can name the head of a major trucking firm as one example.
He had his college degrees on the wall (one was a MBA from Marquette University......not easy to get). I started to talk about his network setup and IT infrastructure and his response was. "We got a lot of stuff......we got a lot of good stuff but it's expensive stuff". After hearing that from a CEO I was a little taken aback and then asked how they grew into such a setup. He then realized he was out of his league and introduced his chief IT guy. In walks this guy in a $200 Sears Roebuck Suit......and I almost laughed when he told me he used to work for Sears IT. Now granted his skills could be in an area I did not observe like in crunching numbers but I had to gasp at someone so clueless on technology in a technology driven society.
This trucking company was making money despite it's Executive "talent" in my opinion because they had decent subordinates that were covering most of the bases. It's IT Infrastructure sucked though and was a hodge podge of different systems......looked like someone didn't know what they were doing but was experimenting piece by piece with outside help at times. In other words it was pretty horrible. The employees were working their butts off to bridge the various failures of their IT infrastructure. This was a well known and major trucking firm.
I can give more examples I have seen personally as well but the post would go on and on for pages.
I traveled from NYP to Cleveland on #49 on a Tuesday in the middle of last month. Being a habitue of the Lake Shore Limited since its very first trip in November of 1975, I have a pretty long and reliable frame of reference to support two points that this thread raises.
As is my custom, I entered the brand-new dining car as the train departed Albany at 7 PM. Unlike past trips where the dining car steward would book reservations so as to minimize the always-crowded (and progressively understaffed) diner, I walked into a nearly empty car. One lone British couple on holiday had finished their boxed food with a disappointed reaction. While in Albany I had purchased some indifferent clam chowder and a poor microwaved hamburger to serve as my dinner aboard #49 that evening. Although I was only the third person in the car, the Lead Service Attendant had to examine his conscience before deciding he would look the other way as I ate my lousy substitue for dinner that night in the brand-spanking new dining car we Lake Shore patrons have been waiting for for five years. One other couple entered the putative dining car before I returned to my room as we neared Utica.
At 10 PM my personal thermometer was showing my bedroom temperature to be 64 degrees and dropping. When I discovered the other sleeper was nice and warm, I effected a transfer from one room and car to another. Consequently, I walked the entire length of the train to find the conductor and get his (forthcoming) permission. But here was my takeaway: In 43 years, I have never seen the train anywhere near as empty as it was that autumn evening/night. One coach was entirely empty, the others just sprinkled with passengers. I found myself, for the first time since 1975, fearing for the future of this train I like and have supported. By the way, in my second bedroom the temperature, instead of being an unadjustable 64, was now an unadjustable 79.6; from the igloo to the sauna.
I'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more. No wonder Amtrak has sales on first class rooms when its trains ought to be, as they were for over 40 years, bursting with passengers glad to find space during the busy holiday season.
Well done, Mr. Anderson and Board. What brilliant, successful businessmen you are.
Maybe what Balt says is true? "Delta Dick" Anderson wasn't hired to run Amtrak, he was hired to kill it.
Looks like it's going to be "death by 1,000 cuts."
If the Congress wanted it gone, they could do it overnight by a vote, but that would mean putting their names on record and taking responsibility for something serious and not "feel-good" legislation.
NKP guy Well done, Mr. Anderson and Board. What brilliant, successful businessmen you are.
I think you will find if you check against the histogram of Amtrak ridership. Amtrak ridership declines when gas prices fall beneath a specific level. I think you will also find that Amtrak is experiencing ridership declines across the system not just on the trains that Amtrak management has made changes to. Ridership on the Lake Shore Limited is down 13%. Ridership is down on most of the Long Distance Trains. Some of the Western states Amtrak is traversing are also seeing driving increase by 5-10%. The increase in driving is comming from transportation alternatives.
I think the thread about Amtrak fire sale prices on sleeper accomodations is rather humourous since it was started by TRAINS Magazine staff and of all people the publishers of TRAINS shouldn't be living in a vacuum. Amtrak management should be concerned about this because it has to submit RFP's for the first tranche of LD Equipment next year. Good luck selling that to Congress when your ridership is in a nose dive......hence the panic and the fire sales.
According to Amtrak ridership for October FY 2019 compared to prior year was as follows:Northeast Corridor +19,000
State-Supported +26,200
Long Distance - 20,600
Overall +24,600
Link for thpse numbers
Amtrak October momthly performance
Are you not the person who has argued that Amtrak is not a business but rather a utility or government social agency? If this is true, why would you expect Anderson to be a good business person in an organization that supposedly is not a business?
Based on the unofficial Amtrak numbers, taken from the September 2018 Monthly Operating Report, as noted above, ridership on the Lake Shore Limited is down 13.1 percent. Ridership on the long-distance trains is down 3.94 percent.
The numbers in the September Monthly Operating Report are subject to revision.
charlie hebdoAccording to Amtrak ridership for October FY 2019 compared to prior year was as follows:
It's comparing October to October. It's not a yearly comparison. However, the same report said year over year ridership is flat even though Amtrak has not released the stats for September yet according to the press which is reporting the Long Distance Train declines in ridership (which I don't know how you could have missed with a Google search).
Also we are in December now. I am not sure when gas prices fell below $2 a gallon but I tend to think it was after October........along with the uncertainty with the NYSE.
According to Amtrak's September 2018 Monthly Operating Report, 2018 ridership on the Lake Shore Limited was 13.1 percent below the same figure for 2017. The number of riders in 2017 was 29 basis points higher than 2016.
The number of riders on the long-distance trains in 2018 declined 3.9 percent over 2017. For 2017 the number of riders on the long-distance trains had increased 91 basis points.
The Lake Shore Limited shows a higher decline in its ridership than the long-distance trains. The basis for these calculations can be found in the September 2018, 2017 and 2016 Monthly Operating Reports.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo According to Amtrak ridership for October FY 2019 compared to prior year was as follows: It's comparing October to October. It's not a yearly comparison. However, the same report said year over year ridership is flat even though Amtrak has not released the stats for September yet according to the press which is reporting the Long Distance Train declines in ridership (which I don't know how you could have missed with a Google search). Also we are in December now. I am not sure when gas prices fell below $2 a gallon but I tend to think it was after October........along with the uncertainty with the NYSE.
charlie hebdo According to Amtrak ridership for October FY 2019 compared to prior year was as follows:
I am fully aware of the comparisons. FYI: YTY comparisons are very useful because they eliminate the effects of seasonal and other variables. Had you actually looked at the data and not just the text summary, you would have seen that the flat performance (+0.9%) in ridership was due to the 5.5% decline in LD services while NEC service showed a 1,7% gain and State services a 2.0 % gain. While neither of the latter are especially good, almost anyone can discern that the major problems are in the LD segment.
NKP guyI'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more. No wonder Amtrak has sales on first class rooms when its trains ought to be, as they were for over 40 years, bursting with passengers glad to find space during the busy holiday season. Well done, Mr. Anderson and Board. What brilliant, successful businessmen you are.
If you lose money on every passenger, how much sense does it make to try and grow the business?
I know in "theory" the idea would be to court more passengers sufficient to start covering your expenses, but I really don't believe there is enough headroom in the marketplace to recruit that many passengers.
The "passenger train experience" just doesn't have enough pull for people too young to remember it the the way it was the first time around.
NKP guy I'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more.
I'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more.
Amtrak is not in the business to provide "fun" to foamers. They are in the business to provide transportation. They are still doing that.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 NKP guy I'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more. Amtrak is not in the business to provide "fun" to foamers. They are in the business to provide transportation. They are still doing that.
You cannot differentiate fun and transportation when it comes to attracting customers. If your mode of transportation is no fun, the customer will select some other means of transportation. Amtrak appears to be selling the worst of all possible transportation, at present.
Balt is correct.
I used to love to fly, commercial air that is. I haven't in quite a while. Why?
It's no fun anymore, it's a headache. For a variety of reasons. End of story.
Many thanks to n012944 & Convicted One for their thoughtful comments.
First:
n012944Amtrak is not in the business to provide "fun" to foamers. They are in the business to provide transportation. They are still doing that.
I think your term of "foamers" is, in my case, a little heavy-handed. Wouldn't you agree that "rail enthusiast" is a bit more felicitious? As to your other comment, if the mission is simply to provide transportation, why operate sleeping cars or "diners" at all? Why not just operate commuter-like coaches? Yes, Amtrak is "still" providing transportation; the question, regarding the Lake Shore Limited though, is for how much longer?
Convicted One: Previously I compared #49's passenger number that evening to similar evenings in the past two or three years, not with trains young people wouldn't be familiar with. It is a fact that two years and more ago the Lake Shore Limited carried noticeably more passengers and the dining car was often full.
It's also a fact that this train has not been advertised in any Ohio newspaper in many years, let alone on social media, or TV and radio. If no one knows about the service it can't be grown.
It's a fact that the loss of the dining car is having a negative impact on riders and discourages ridership.
It doesn't help that this train, and the Capitol, for that matter, are so frequently late that they have become non-dependable as transportation options.
Does the Postal Service operate only in areas that generate a sizeable profit?
The solution, as I see it, is to improve the train, the service, and the marketing; not to bleed it to death and then feign surprise and insight. Amtrak needs a champion and a supportive Board, not the current wrecking crew.
BaltACD n012944 NKP guy I'm not the only contributor on this forum for railfans who is lately minimizing his Amtrak LD travels because it just isn't much fun at all any more. Amtrak is not in the business to provide "fun" to foamers. They are in the business to provide transportation. They are still doing that. You cannot differentiate fun and transportation when it comes to attracting customers. If your mode of transportation is no fun, the customer will select some other means of transportation. Amtrak appears to be selling the worst of all possible transportation, at present.
Flying is largely "no fun" yet....Growth of air travel in US in 2017 was 3.4% to an all-time high of 965 million.
https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-traffic-data-us-airlines-and-foreign-airlines-us-flights
NKP guy Does the Postal Service operate only in areas that generate a sizeable profit?
A number of USPS critics think that is exactly what they should do.
Convicted One If you lose money on every passenger, how much sense does it make to try and grow the business? I know in "theory" the idea would be to court more passengers sufficient to start covering your expenses.
I know in "theory" the idea would be to court more passengers sufficient to start covering your expenses.
Going beyond food-service loss reduction, I think Amtrak could be a profitable small segment of a large, and very-well run, hospitality business, that would include interconnected hotels, station restaurants with take-out and home delivery, spas, fitness centers, perhaps an airline and bus system. Large economies of scale, in ticketing, food and bererages, and all kinds of supplies and manpower, even electricity and diesel fuel or its replacemnt, would present opportunities for turning a profit. But would Anti-Trust allow it? Probably not.
ATK will never be profitable, even with a roughly $500 million hidden subsidy from the freight railroads due to far below cost pricing for train slots mandated by congress. Kill every train operated on routes ATK does not own. An arguement can be made for social utility of ATK on the NEC, but since ATK has to pay full costs of capital expenses it will never be profitable there either.
Automobiles killed local passenger service in the 1920's and the jet airplane, both with generous govt subsidies for fixed plant, killed the passenger train before 1970. ATK is just another welfare program that we do not need and an thief of freight capacity that we do need. End the madness!
PNWRMNMAutomobiles killed local passenger service in the 1920's and the jet airplane, both with generous govt subsidies for fixed plant, killed the passenger train before 1970. ATK is just another welfare program that we do not need and an thief of freight capacity that we do need. End the madness!
The US Government will never be profitable. End the madness!
No!
Overall USPS would have earned an operating profit of $3.1 billion in 2018 if it were not saddled with $7.8 billion of retiree health and unfunded retirement benefits.
USPS management argues that strapping it with the retiree benefits that were incurred while the postal service was a government agency is unwarranted.
Many commercial entities run loss leaders. But overall, they earn enough money to offset the losses and earn a profit for the entity. Amtrak does not come close on any score card.
In 2005 the DOT IG recommended that the sleeping cars and dining cars on the long-distance trains be dropped. His rationale was that the subsidy for the sleeping car passengers was considerably higher than that for the coach passengers, who make up 85 percent of the long-distance passengers.
Assuming there is a case for the long-distance trains, why should the taxpayers pay for sleeping rooms and meals for Amtrak’s better healed passengers?
According to Amtrak, the average income of a sleeper class passenger in 2017 was $102,000 compared to $67,000 for a coach passenger. Interestingly, 52 percent of sleeper class passengers were retired compared to 38 percent of coach passengers.
NKP guy Convicted One: Previously I compared #49's passenger number that evening to similar evenings in the past two or three years, not with trains young people wouldn't be familiar with.
I'm sorry NKP guy, you're right, my reply was unclear. Please allow me to place additional emphasis where it might be beneficial.
The portion of my reply pertaining specific to your post was the part that stated "if you lose money on every customer, why try and grow the business?"
That is the mindset that the "new team" running Amtrak might be using as rationale in allowing coveted comforts to lapse and disappear altogether.
The rest of my original reply, was in anticipation that you might try and rebutt the above with an "accounting 101" scenario about how the imbalance between cost and revenue might be addressed through expanding volume. I was simply qualifying why I don't think there is sufficient volume to be had, as would be necessary to exceed the break even point.
Good catch on your part, many humble appologies.
blue streak 1Many of Amtrak's stockholders (* US public ) believe that Amtrak and LD particulary should prevail. In that case you grow the LD revenue passenger miles to reduce the overall loss per passenger. You also take care of the persons living in the boonies who otherwise have no public transportation that they desire. ( a bus will not do )
Blue, I wish that I had a workable solution, I really do. I'm even more disappointed that we once had a workable system like we had with the interurbans, and let those slip through our fingers as well.
But you know? I can recall my mom telling me what a pain interurbans were because of the impact they had on traffic, and that the roadways tended to deteriorate faster near the tracks. She was glad they were gone.
We would probably do well to remember that the greatest minds we have ever known in the railroad business, were only too happy to be rid of long distance passenger service, whenever the opportunity availed itself to them (modern era, when passenger rail no longer had a monopoly on long distance mass transit)
So, maybe they had a point? More objective and less subjective?
I really don't see much of an opportunity for a LD passenger rail system that makes much sense, unless you go around and first eliminate many of the fool hardy programs that the government currently supports (foreign aid to buy alliance, stuff like that), then redirect that money into a passenger rail program having benefits that are both local as well as tangible. Ain't gonna happen, though...too many special interests "spoiling the broth"
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