BaltACD I wonder how much profit China is getting from their passenger rail network? Or do they view their passenger rail network as a SERVICE necessary for their population?
China Railway Corporation (CRC) operates passenger and freight trains, including China's high speed passenger trains. In 2017 it reported a net profit of 1.8 billion yuan or $283 million. In 2016 CRC had a net loss of $169 million.
In 2017 55 percent of the company's revenues came from passenger operations; the remainder were from freight.
CRC is owned by China Railway Group (CRG). Its businesses include construction of railways, port facilities, highways, airports, as well as financing, engineering, etc. servcies.
The company's financials are audited by Pricewaterhouse Coopers Hong Kong practice.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Backshop .....paying for CLEAR.
Depends on how many times a year one travels by air. The cost is $179 per year. I fly an average of three or four times a year; it would not be worth it for me.
Delta offers discount deals for their upper tier frequent flyers. My wife is Diamond Medallion.
PJS1In 2017 China Railway Corporation (CRC), which is a state-owned high speed railroad operator, report a net profit of 1.8 billion yuan or $283 million. In 2016 CRC had a loss of $169 million. The Chinese Government covers the CRC's losses. Approximately 55 percent of the company's revenues come from passenger transportation; the remainder comes from freight. Although the 2017 Annual Report does not report segment results, at least as far as I can determine in a quick read, it appears that in 2017 passenger operations were profitable. China Railway Corporation is a subsidiary of China Railway Group. Its activities extend behond railway operations to include engineering, construction of railways, port facilities, highways, etc, financing, etc. The company is a joint stock company. Its financials are audited by Pricewaterhouse Coopers Hong Kong practice.
You can't rely on that for two reasons. Though I understand a lot of people still believe that Hong Kong is independent, auditors there....not so much. Chinese auditor and Chinese state company. If China was a democracy or the auditor was based overseas I would trust it more.
According to China it does not have a housing issue even though 47 million apartments are vacant and they are still building more apartment houses.
If you disagree with me ask a local CPA about reliabliity of China's business stats or if you have more time look at some of the many Youtube videos that investigate Chinese business. Where they have found business assets on NYSE listed Chinese companies significantly misstated. Even if they are listed on the NYSE you cannot trust their financials.........which previously I thought was a gold standard myself.
Without trying to get into the politics of budgeting, are you actually saying we have a choice where our money gets spent?
The money spent on Amtrak is a rounding error. You don't like money spent on Amtrak, I'd get thrown off the forum if I listed all the places and ways money gets spent that I don't like. A lot of the stuff I object to doesn't benefit the people of this country and does little if anything to improve the lot of others.
At least Amtrak provides a service to (some) of the people of this country. I don't particularly mind that it sucks up my tax money - at least I can feel what I'm forced to contribute goes someplace where I don't mind it getting spent.
CMStPnPIf you disagree with me ask a local CPA about reliabliity of China's business stats .........
PJS1CPA’s tend to specialize in select areas of accounting. A CPA that works for a large corporation, unless he is in the tax department, probably does not know anymore about the U.S. tax code than an H&R Block functionary. Unless a local CPA is involved directly in auditing a Chinese firm, which is unlikely, he or she would not be in a position to opine on the veracity of Chinese accounting and auditing methodologies.
Untrue, a good portion of CPA's are trained across multiple areas now. Additionally, they attend yearly meetings as part of retaining their certification and some of those meetings cover standards in other countries as well as safety of financial reporting from other countries.
PJS1PWC is unlikely to squander its international reputation to curry favor with the Chinese or Hong Kong governments. Because of its world-wide footprint, it does not need to do so.
Kind of like Arthur Andersen and Enron...huh? PWC will squander anything if it means money and they could really care less about their global reputation because the part of the firm outside of China can always divorce itself from the Hong Kong operation and say it was all a local problem. You don't remember that happening with the German subsidiaries of American Firms in Hitlers Germany....do you?
Your going to find the Senior Managers at the Hong Kong PWC Branch have been approved in some way or another by China. That in itself is a major conflict of interest and breach of the publics trust if they are auditing Chinese public Corporations. However, you will also find they are not hired to audit unless the Senior management is in good favor with the Chinese government.
Bottom line and personally, I don't care if you believe it or not. The cautionary note was more a public service. :)
The old adage - Figures Lie, Liars figure! YMMV!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD The old adage - Figures Lie, Liars figure! YMMV!
If you believe the financial data in CRC's Annual Report is incorrect, why don't you point out with specifics why they are incorrect.
If you can verify that PWC has not performed its audit of CRC professionally, you can lodge a report with the Public Accounting Oversight Board. If an independent investigation substantiates your allegations, PWC will be disciplined by the board.
Disciplinary actions usually result in a substantial fine, but in the extreme a firm can lose its license to practice public accounting.
An American accounting firm is subject to oversight of the Public Accounting Oversight Board irrespective of where it practices.
PJS1 BaltACD The old adage - Figures Lie, Liars figure! YMMV! If you believe the financial data in CRC's Annual Report is incorrect, why don't you point out with specifics why they are incorrect. If you can verify that PWC has not performed its audit of CRC professionally, you can lodge a report with the Public Accounting Oversight Board. If an independent investigation substantiates your allegations, PWC will be disciplined by the board. Disciplinary actions usually result in a substantial fine, but in the extreme a firm can lose its license to practice public accounting. An American accounting firm is subject to oversight of the Public Accounting Oversight Board irrespective of where it practices.
Disciplinary actions usually result in a substantial fine, but in the extreme a firm can lose its license to practice public accounting. An American accounting firm is subject to oversight of the Public Accounting Oversight Board irrespective of where it practices.
With a forum containing members who claim knowledge of everything or dismiss that which they don't understand with foolish shibboleths, the opinions of actual experts get lost in the garbage.
charlie hebdoWith a forum containing members who claim knowledge of everything or dismiss that which they don't understand with foolish shibboleths, the opinions of actual experts get lost in the garbage.
Or the experts give up posting, or quit in despair, or delete their postings, or get so frustrated they get banned or permanently moderated...
PJS1 CRC is owned by China Railway Group. Its businesses include construction of railways, port facilities, highways, airports, as well as financing, engineering, etc. servcies. The company's financials are audited by Pricewaterhouse Coopers Hong Kong practice.
CRC is owned by China Railway Group. Its businesses include construction of railways, port facilities, highways, airports, as well as financing, engineering, etc. servcies.
Thank you for the informative response, PJS1. I am glad to know that we have forum members like you who really understand how things work in China and HKSAR. Some folks probably don't know how hard the Hong Kong SAR Government has been working to consolidating the international finance center status of the city. Note that the Heritage Foundation ranked Hong Kong as the world’s freest economy for the 24th consecutive year and the reason of why Alibaba abandons $60bn Hong Kong listing.
By the way, the Hong Kong HSR which linking the massive network of China just opened a few months ago (finally), the trainset in the following video is designed for 48 mins run from Hong Kong to Guangzhou by HK's MTR corporation who are joint venture or directly running the Stockholm Metro, Stockholm-Gothenburg Intercity Express Service (MTR Express), Stockholms pendeltåg, South Western Railway, Sydney Metro North West , London Elizabeth Line etc.
Not as luxury as the trains going to Beijing and Shanghai, but still have "Parlor-car" style seats in both Business class and 2nd class. Meanwhile, another 2000km long, Beijing to Shenzhen (A larger city next to Hong Kong) HSR has been under construction for a while.
https://topick.hket.com/article/2166941/
Long distance travel on China's HSR Business Class, a modern parlor/sleeper.
https://kknews.cc/zh-hk/car/266x6pr.html
First Class
Source:eastday.com
Dining Car
Source: on.cc
Second Class
Source:Wiki
CR400AF, CR400BF etc. The newest model. Around 107 sets have been put into revenue service. Design top speed is 249 mph, the operation speed is 217mph. No big deal...
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Overmod Or the experts give up posting, or quit in despair, or delete their postings, or get so frustrated they get banned or permanently moderated...
CMStPnPThings in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition.
Most of this comment/opinion does not appear to be grounded in reality.
I think more likely a "tale of two cities". Remembering the U.S. built, hi-tech machine tooling requiring temperature-controlled environment being installed on bare-ground Chinese factory floor.
charlie hebdo CMStPnP Things in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition. Most of this comment/opinion does not appear to be grounded in reality.
CMStPnP Things in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition.
While I can't say that the comments are grounded in reality or not - there have been videos (videos could have been doctored) of multiple Chinese 'cities' that have been built and only lack one thing - people to occupy them. Don't know how you can build a entire city without people to occupy it and have it 'turn a profit.
BaltACD charlie hebdo CMStPnP Things in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition. Most of this comment/opinion does not appear to be grounded in reality. While I can't say that the comments are grounded in reality or not - there have been videos (videos could have been doctored) of multiple Chinese 'cities' that have been built and only lack one thing - people to occupy them. Don't know how you can build a entire city without people to occupy it and have it 'turn a profit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village
Highlight it and do a right click.
Johnny
Deggesty BaltACD charlie hebdo CMStPnP Things in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition. Most of this comment/opinion does not appear to be grounded in reality. While I can't say that the comments are grounded in reality or not - there have been videos (videos could have been doctored) of multiple Chinese 'cities' that have been built and only lack one thing - people to occupy them. Don't know how you can build a entire city without people to occupy it and have it 'turn a profit. Perhaps these are Potemkin cities? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village Highlight it and do a right click.
Perhaps these are Potemkin cities?
Note the below. SEC is already aware and I didn't think it was a huge secret but apparently it is on this website. In fact if you check Deloitte has packed it's bags at more than one firm after frauds were discovered......
http://www.visiontimes.com/2013/01/31/muddy-waters-reveals-chinese-companies-fraud.html
The latest catch, I really like how frank this company is with their analysis....he-he-he. Yes, they are short sellers and are not doing this for purely altruistic reasons alone. This is a NASDAQ listing but some have been found on NYSE.
http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/research/cifs/mw-is-short-china-internet-financial-services/
charlie hebdoMost of this comment/opinion does not appear to be grounded in reality.
If it helps any, I do not invest in marajuana stocks. :)
CMStPnP SEC is already aware .......
CMStPnP Note the below. SEC is already aware and I didn't think it was a huge secret but apparently it is on this website. In fact if you check Deloitte has packed it's bags at more than one firm after frauds were discovered...... http://www.visiontimes.com/2013/01/31/muddy-waters-reveals-chinese-companies-fraud.html The latest catch, I really like how frank this company is with their analysis....he-he-he. Yes, they are short sellers and are not doing this for purely altruistic reasons alone. This is a NASDAQ listing but some have been found on NYSE. http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/research/cifs/mw-is-short-china-internet-financial-services/
Muddy Waters (Carson Block) has done some good exposés of financial fraud. However, Block also owns Muddy Waters Capital, a hedge fund. That raises posibilities of conflicts of interest.
PJS1The large accounting firms have thousands of employees. On occasion a few of them go rogue.
On second thought........deleted. Filed under hopelessly naive about big business.
CMStPnPNow the Supreme Court might have reversed the ruling after the fact. Local court was correct, Supreme Court ruling was based on instructions to the Jury and since the firm was long gone they did not want to retry the case to submit it back to Supreme Court scruitiny.
You seem to devalue/distort the Supreme Court ruling, perhaps in your zeal to attack accounting firms, especially those who "go rouge" (sic!) and with lipstick? [from Wiki] "On May 31, 2005, in Arthur Andersen LLP v. United States, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously reversed Andersen's conviction because of serious errors in the trial judge's jury instructions.The Supreme Court held that the instructions were too vague to allow a jury to find that obstruction of justice had occurred. The court found that the instructions were worded in such a way that Andersen could have been convicted without any proof that the firm knew it had broken the law or that there had been a link to any official proceeding that prohibited the destruction of documents. The opinion, written by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, also expressed skepticism of the government's concept of "corrupt persuasion"—persuading someone to engage in an act with an improper purpose without knowing that the act is unlawful."
Accounting 'gurus' are just as boring arguing technical accounting details as are engineers arguing technical engineering details. Just saying.
CMStPnPThe whole reason we have a Big Four instead of a Big Five runs directly counter to your rather naive assertions about Big Business Accounting Firms.
PJS1Calling some naïve is a sure-fire way to shut down a discussion.
Discussion going nowhere for reason stated and it's way off topic. I made my point 2-3 posts ago. Time to move on.
CMStPnP PJS1 The large accounting firms have thousands of employees. On occasion a few of them go rogue. On second thought........deleted. Filed under hopelessly naive about big business.
PJS1 The large accounting firms have thousands of employees. On occasion a few of them go rogue.
On the whole, I trust the opinions of a trained and very experienced corporate accountant on questions relating to accountancy over those of a former sandwich shop operator or even those of a retired dispatcher. Experts have far more credibility than those lacking any training or hands-on experience.
Deggesty Perhaps these are Potemkin cities? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village Highlight it and do a right click.
Not entirely correct, it is much more complicated than Potemkin cities.
I have been "dealing" with this country for more almost 40 years, I HEARD that the corruption trick of the "ghost towns" is actually very simple to understand. This kinds of materials is not even something considered as secret in China and was reported by "Chinese version CNN" many times. But before I reveal the detail, folks from the US might need to take away your private ruler of America first OR people might never can fully understand this interesting "Communist" country by measuring it with US standard.
Firstly, the leader group of some 3rd or 4th tier towns or villages; you could call them the local government ; formed a company (yes it is allowed in China) and request loan or "development funding" from the local bank (keep in mind that all the banks in China except Hong Kong and Macau are owned and controlled by different ranks of communist party members) for massive, unnecessary housing and commercial projects with zero or very limited investment value like those you see in the clips. After these projects are being approved by the Provincial government (of course the will approve them, wink wink), the local government received the loans or funding; some of the money will be "shared" by the local government officials, some of them used to employ project consultants, engineers, architecture firms, construction companies and everyone involved in this kind of project. It was a trick to handle the problem of Excess Capacity and ensure a low employment rate in China a few years ago.
Now you would ask how are these local governments repaying the loans to the bank? the answer is NO NEED. Google "Chinese local governments highly indebted" if you are really interested in this topic. But remember, China is not North Korea nor America, they still have numerous ways to write off the debt under the table or behind the front door without going too far. How about the empty cities? No big deal ! because there are plenty of lands in China...This is the version I heard. Did the Chinese Communist Party try to stop this phenomenon? Yes. But this is a train forum, I think it is time to get off the train of digressing.
Back to the topic. I note forum member thinks that long-distance train travel still has future in the States, my thought is definitely yes. The high-speed railway between Beijing and Shanghai which is China's most profitable high-speed railway measures 1,318km (819 miles) reported a 31 billion RMB net operating profit from 2014 to 2017 ( Average 1.6 billion USD per year): Note how crowded was the train in the video. But the population of both Countries is very different, train like The Rocky Mountaineer would fit better in the States. But the facilities of Chinese HSR could be used for reference for the new Acela train.
Business Class / Parlour car - Beijing to Tainjin
2nd Class - Beijing to Shanghai
BaltACDAccounting 'gurus' are just as boring arguing technical accounting details as are engineers arguing technical engineering details. Just saying.
But at least some of the time the engineering details can continue to be relevant to something on a railroad forum after a post or two.
PJS1How long were you employed or have been employed by any accounting firm? Calling some naïve is a sure-fire way to shut down a discussion.
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