Donald Fagan aka Steely Dan has a line about taking the train "The Wolverine" up to Annadale but...its not in Michigan

[wjstix]

CandOforprogress2

By Upstate Michigan I mean the nothern countys and places like Traverse Bay

NYC did have lines throughout the lower peninsula of Michigan, as far north as Mackinaw City. However CASO basically connected Buffalo and Detroit (via Windsor) in Lower Ontario, that was the only place it crossed into Michigan. 

[Overmod]

CSSHEGEWISCH

You're being quite discreet

It's a family-friendly forum.  Notwithstanding how families get started in the first place.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

You're being quite discreet

[Overmod]

Electroliner 1935

BEAUSABRE

Read William Burrough's "The Naked Lunch". It's the name of...er...a sex toy (blush)

At least it has a connection to STEAM!

Are you sure you haven't confused Steely Dan III with the Foomtra?

"Round and round went the big red wheel; In and out went the spike of steel..." with the crux of the matter plain to be seen, and the moral of the story clear, by the terrifying end...

[Electroliner 1935]

BEAUSABRE

Read William Burrough's "The Naked Lunch". It's the name of...er...a sex toy (blush)

At least it has a connection to STEAM!

[BEAUSABRE]

Read William Burrough's "The Naked Lunch". It's the name of...er...a sex toy (blush)

[Convicted One]

CandOforprogress2

Does the fact the Detroit Ford and GM where making *%&^U cars that in the 1970s=1980s that did not end up in rust heaps in less the 3.5 years?

 

 

I had an '84 Eldorado that lasted 20 years. Had to put a rebuilt engine in it at about 140K miles...other than that is was a peach

Had a '79 Cutlass too. Not much to complain about.....had to replace the transmission at 60K, but GM picked up the tab (silent recall)

BTW, funny story where the band Steely Dan got the name for their band. Worth researching for a good laugh.

[CandOforprogress2]

So due to free trade and Detroit making autos that were obsolete even before they left eh assembly line traffic declined.

[CandOforprogress2]

Decline of the Auto Industry and also the Fuel Crunch of the 1970s when Detroit was still making Gas Guzzelers and the Japs came out with higher milage cars.

[longhorn1969]

Funny, when I think of Donald Fagen, I think of Deacon Blues, or IGY.

[Backshop]

CandOforprogress2

Does the fact the Detroit Ford and GM where making *%&^U cars that in the 1970s=1980s that did not end up in rust heaps in less the 3.5 years?

PInto anyone?

 

What does that have to do with anything?

[Steve B500]

Originally the MC Depot had 12 through passenger tracks and 7 through freight tracks, plus a spur or two for private cars. Now there are just 2 freight tracks in use. The other tracks visible in current aerial imagery were relaid in the early 2000's for a short-lived refrigerated express business.

[CandOforprogress2]

Does the fact the Detroit Ford and GM where making *%&^U cars that in the 1970s=1980s that did not end up in rust heaps in less the 3.5 years?

PInto anyone?

[Miningman]

Convicted One-- This was right around the time of the Free Trade agreements and NAFTA was being negotiated, besides a precedent had been already set and could be  'grandfathered in'. When it comes to politics it depends on who greases who and all that fun stuff. I could see it being a Genesee & Wyoming line or Omnitrax today. 

CN/CP wield power though and they were very keen on keeping an eye on the CASO as some upstart could really upset the apple cart and provide meaningful competition.

I like Steve 8500's idea of a joint Amtrak/VIA line. That might be a real thing but it brings up the big question... what for? The last passenger train on the CASO was the Niagara Rainbow and it lasted about 3 years. 

It would have to be Detroit-Buffalo, Windsor-Niagara Falls. The stations in Detroit and Buffalo were essentially falling apart and non functional eyesores. If was still intact in 2001,  then 911 would have caused a lot of problems for VIA/Amtrak. 

New York Central sure knew how to run the line. There was optimism with Penn Central but Conrail was a non starter right from the go. 

CPR passenger trains reached Detroit via the Detroit River Tunnel Company and MCR. 

Michigan Central Station, Detroit, Michigan. 
2001 15th Street. 

10 through tracks used by MCR (NYC), B&O and CPR. 

Opened December 26, 1913. Closed January 5, 1988. 
Sold June 2018 Ford Motor Co. for office space 2,500. 

 

[Convicted One]

Miningman

If you go to Classic Trains and look at the thread Titles you will find quite a lot on the CASO,

Yes, I think   I found most of it.....very interesting. Seems a real shame that it's gone now. 

Would the Canadian government have permitted another US entity to purchase (without restriction) the line, had one been interested in out bidding CN/CP? 

[Steve B500]

Miningman- Yes, that piggyback proposal was innovative. CN/CP's bid to Conrail must have been higher, though certainly not in the public interest. Any concern for the "public interest" on Ottawa's part was likely squelched by insider lobbying from CN and CP. And back then, CN *was* the government! Another factor working against the CASO as an important freight route was the decimation of the Detroit area auto industry traffic, especially during the years 1973-1975 and 1979-1982.

[Miningman]

Steve 8500-- Very nice thanks for that. However, shaving off 2 hours or more of time between Detroit and Buffalo cannot be overlooked. 

There was a serious proposal from a prospective buyer to run piggybacks with the truckers coming along in passenger cars, like an Auto Train for truckers. It was well recieved by others and made sense. 

Public hearings by CN-CP on the CASO were very heated affairs with fisticuffs breaking out. The 'fix' was in.

Overmod/RME has stated several times that the CASO was ritual murder by CN-CP so as not to let the line go to a competitor and insure their own dual monopoly. 

There were several major branch lines and on line revenue was reported in detail by commondity and location by the New York Central each year in the detailed annual reports. There were many many sources of freight. Likely, however, in today's world most of these would no longer exist as railroad freight. However, note that the last scheduled Conrail train was a local.

Today the 401 is jammed packed with ever bigger monster trucks and (crazy) drivers in their cars. The towns along the tore up CASO have suffered badly, industry gone, welfare and drugs arrived. 

But common sense and actually caring about people take a back seat here. 

CN-CP could use a good kick with some serious competition in SW Ontario and it would have been beneficial to everyone, except maybe the .1 %. 

In any case it is gone and it ain't comin' back.

[CandOforprogress2]

By Upstate Michigan I mean the nothern countys and places like Traverse Bay

Yooper= Anyone who lives in the Upper Peninsula

[Steve B500]

Yes, Conrail could have expanded the tunnel...but it didn't need to. It could, and did, just divert everything down to Toledo and then east. CP expanded the tunnel because it needed to; it didn't have its own route south of Lake Erie. Somewhat like the Erie, the CASO was ultimately one line too many. Well-built, but with way too few originating carloads per mile. CN and CP have their own lines from Windsor to Buffalo. Longer, but through better traffic generating areas. By 2001 when CN and CP started ripping the CASO up, why would CSX or NS have wanted it either? Both of them have lines going south from Detroit to northern Ohio, and from there to the East Coast. Origins of the CASO's demise go as far back as the 1950s, with the rebuilding of Elkhart Yard and removal of through freights west of Kalamazoo. The die was cast with Conrail's removal of through traffic from the CASO in 1979, and CSX's through trains only providing a stay of execution until 1996. The real tragedy is that the line wasn't turned into a fast, joint VIA/Amtrak route. But that would have required commitment and cooperation among various governments, apparently asking too much.

[Miningman]

If you go to Classic Trains and look at the thread Titles you will find quite a lot on the CASO, St Thomas, New York Central. I recently posted a 6 part 'time line' of selected major events on the CASO from the beginning to the end. String Lining is found on the Trains site, did a lot on Port Burwell and a large photo essay of modern day Niagara Falls operations just before they tore it all up. That was a year ago. Sorry I did not 'tag' things but they are easy to find. 

[Convicted One]

Miningman

So true. I've posted numerous photo essays and commentaries over the years on Trains, a lot in String Lining, and many stand alone discussions on over on Classic Trains.

 

Links? I'd like to read those.

[wjstix]

Steve B500

But absolutely nobody in Michigan ever uses the term "Upstate Michigan."

 

 

Yup, you're either a troll living under the bridge in the mitten, or a yooper up in da U.P.

[wjstix]

CandOforprogress2

In his song "My old School" he talks about taking the Wolverine up to Annadale but I only found 2 towns with that name one in MN and the other one in VA

I cant find a Annadale Michigan but I did find a Annadale Minnisota.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annandale,_Minnesota? Was there a Train called the Wolverine that ran in Minnisota? This seems likely.

 

 

Annandale Minnesota was on the Soo Line, my grandparents lived there. Only Wolverines here in Minnesota are when the University of Michigan brings the Little Brown Jug to visit Minnesota before returning it to Ann Arbor, which is pretty much it's permanent home now....

[Backshop]

The clearances in the tunnel were improved after its sale.  Conrail could have done it.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Canada Southern became redundant as a Penn Central and Conrail route since it added unnecessary complications to an East Coast-Michigan route.  Two sets of customs clearances were involved and the Detroit River Tunnel has some major clearance restrictions.  Carfloats were an expensive way to get trilevel auto racks and similar size cars across the Detroit River.

[Miningman]

Hope you waved to Jumbo the elephant who overlooks the city from on high and welcomes all.

Not only the CASO but it was the Canadian backshops and HQ for the Wabash and the Pere Marquette. Their were numerous roundhouses, a long backshop building that had a transfer table serving many stalls and multiple other buildings. They built steam locomotives there as well, for the New York Central, Wabash and Pere Marquette and the Grand Trunk pre CNR. 

The CASO assigned Hudsons were outshopped and Class 1 repairs were done to quite a number of them in 1952. 

The CNR, CPR and London & Port Stanley were also present. 

Quite the place busy busy busy. Things slowed down with the demise of steam but the Central ran two 4-6-0's until 1957 for the St Clair branch. 

CNR and CPR steam lasted a bit longer late into '59. 

Ford plant shut down its last dedicated assembly line for one model only , the Crown Victoria. A last minute massive order from Saudi Arabia kept it open for some time but the end was nigh. 3 on the tree and standard I believe. Crown Victoria's made for great police cars. 

All of South Western Ontario along Lake Erie and all the branches were tore up. The London and Port Stanley is still going, bisecting what once was numerous rail on its path from London to Lake Erie. 

I often wonder if someone at Conrail had the foresight to keep the CASO. I think it could have become a CSX-NS shared asset and a very busy line. 

[Backshop]

I was in St Thomas a couple of years ago and was surprised to see the CASO backshop in use by the railroad museum there.  For some reason, it was closed on Sunday (I would think weekends would be busier) and I didn't go in.  St Thomas has a nice old main street that looks sorta decrepit now due to the railroad and Ford Motor both leaving.

[Miningman]

So true. I've posted numerous photo essays and commentaries over the years on Trains, a lot in String Lining, and many stand alone discussions on over on Classic Trains. Outside of yourself and Dave Klepper there are few comments or queries or further discussion.

Outside of a diminishing group of folk that live in St Thomas it has been forgotten. Even it's effective endpoints of Buffalo Union Station and the Michigan Central/NYC station in Detroit became abondoned decrepid eyesores. No one talks about the vitally important and magnificenty engineered CASO line. 

[Overmod]

Backshop

CandOforprogress2

CSAO?

No, CASO.  Canada Southern.  Nor Conrail Shared Assets Operations.

I don't think C&O quite understands how amazing the CASO was as a means of reaching lower Michigan from New York via the part of the 'Water Level Route' east of Buffalo.

Or how astounding it was, and is, that the whole of that high-speed railroad has been so effectively extirpated, first from existence and now, increasingly, from memory.