ORNHOOORNHOO wrote the following post 32 minutes ago: In recent hearings the F.R.A. seems to looking at permanent speed restrictions as "hazards" that need to be "mitigated" ; https://www.opb.org/news/article/amtrak-derailment-washington-dangerous-curve/
In the hearings are the following lines:
The engineer operating the Amtrak 501 train had operated just one round trip over the new territory, telling the qualifying conductor that the Dec. 18 trip was “a learning experience for him,” according to investigative documents.
I don't think he actually operated operated a train, I think he just had a ride along.
“Looking back, we have seen gaps in our qualification process and we will address those,” DeCataldo said.
An understatement I believe.
BaltACD charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on? Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience. I hereby declare 243129 the Supreme WINNER of the 2018 Trains Magazine Urine Cup. My most heartfelt congratulations on this accomplishment. May you enjoy your victory in good health for many decades to come.
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on? Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience.
243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on?
charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions.
The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions.
Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on?
Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience.
I hereby declare 243129 the Supreme WINNER of the 2018 Trains Magazine Urine Cup. My most heartfelt congratulations on this accomplishment. May you enjoy your victory in good health for many decades to come.
Ohhh he doesn't want to 'play nice'. I will though. I hereby offer BaltACD a drink from the cup.
Electroliner 1935 ORNHOO ORNHOO wrote the following post 32 minutes ago: In recent hearings the F.R.A. seems to looking at permanent speed restrictions as "hazards" that need to be "mitigated" ; https://www.opb.org/news/article/amtrak-derailment-washington-dangerous-curve/ In the hearings are the following lines: The engineer operating the Amtrak 501 train had operated just one round trip over the new territory, telling the qualifying conductor that the Dec. 18 trip was “a learning experience for him,” according to investigative documents. I don't think he actually operated operated a train, I think he just had a ride along. “Looking back, we have seen gaps in our qualification process and we will address those,” DeCataldo said. An understatement I believe.
ORNHOO ORNHOO wrote the following post 32 minutes ago: In recent hearings the F.R.A. seems to looking at permanent speed restrictions as "hazards" that need to be "mitigated" ; https://www.opb.org/news/article/amtrak-derailment-washington-dangerous-curve/
A gross understatement.
243129 BaltACD charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on? Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience. I hereby declare 243129 the Supreme WINNER of the 2018 Trains Magazine Urine Cup. My most heartfelt congratulations on this accomplishment. May you enjoy your victory in good health for many decades to come. Ohhh he doesn't want to 'play nice'. I will though. I hereby offer BaltACD a drink from the cup.
What can be nicer than declaring the opposition the victor. The winner gets to enjoy all the spoils of victory. Gandhi used the contents as bleach for his teeth as did many civilizations of the past.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD What can be nicer than declaring the opposition the victor. The winner gets to enjoy all the spoils of victory. Gandhi used the contents as bleach for his teeth as did many civilizations of the past.
Gandhi ! How profound. You seem to be well read. I guess that is one of the perks of having a desk job.
Electroliner 1935The engineer operating the Amtrak 501 train had operated just one round trip over the new territory, telling the qualifying conductor that the Dec. 18 trip was “a learning experience for him,” according to investigative documents. I don't think he actually operated operated a train, I think he just had a ride along.
It says he operated the train one round trip. Rather clear.
charlie hebdo Electroliner 1935 The engineer operating the Amtrak 501 train had operated just one round trip over the new territory, telling the qualifying conductor that the Dec. 18 trip was “a learning experience for him,” according to investigative documents. I don't think he actually operated operated a train, I think he just had a ride along. It says he operated the train one round trip. Rather clear.
Electroliner 1935 The engineer operating the Amtrak 501 train had operated just one round trip over the new territory, telling the qualifying conductor that the Dec. 18 trip was “a learning experience for him,” according to investigative documents. I don't think he actually operated operated a train, I think he just had a ride along.
So what does that say about Amtrak's training program?
Originally, I thought the engineer must have just made a mistake somehow. But now, after reading his comments in the cab and in the newspaper article, I see that he was an accident waiting to happen. It is amazing at how obviously predictable this disaster was just in the personality of the engineer. This ought be a news story as big as the accident itself.
Would be interesing to find out if that "one trip" was at track speed.
rdamonWould be interesing to find out if that "one trip" was at track speed.
I believe it was established very early on that it was not. Certainly not at anything remotely close to 79mph.
Now, it was common practice for road-racers in the '50s to walk the course carefully or drive it at lower speed prior to a race, note all the sightlines and markers, and sometimes carefully place a few items in strategic locations, most notably where braking to the apex of a curve was needed. In the days when tire contact patches and suspension damping were almost of 'railroad grade', this was a necessary step in survival.
Race drivers, on the other hand, would have been well-experienced in translating slow-speed investigation to high subsequent driving speed -- and would have had the professional discipline to remember, and act on, the information they had observed. This was a very different thing from just riding over a piece of route and seeing how the curves and grades went.
Euclid Originally, I thought the engineer must have just made a mistake somehow. But now, after reading his comments in the cab and in the newspaper article, I see that he was an accident waiting to happen. It is amazing at how obviously predictable this disaster was just in the personality of the engineer. This ought be a news story as big as the accident itself.
And Amtrak mangement does not possess the knowledge to recognize it. I have stated this to upper management ad nauseam. They don't want to hear it.
Overmod rdamon Would be interesing to find out if that "one trip" was at track speed. I believe it was established very early on that it was not. Certainly not at anything remotely close to 79mph. Now, it was common practice for road-racers in the '50s to walk the course carefully or drive it at lower speed prior to a race, note all the sightlines and markers, and sometimes carefully place a few items in strategic locations, most notably where braking to the apex of a curve was needed. In the days when tire contact patches and suspension damping were almost of 'railroad grade', this was a necessary step in survival. Race drivers, on the other hand, would have been well-experienced in translating slow-speed investigation to high subsequent driving speed -- and would have had the professional discipline to remember, and act on, the information they had observed. This was a very different thing from just riding over a piece of route and seeing how the curves and grades went.
rdamon Would be interesing to find out if that "one trip" was at track speed.
Sadly professional discipline is a term that is foreign to Amtrak.
243129 Euclid Originally, I thought the engineer must have just made a mistake somehow. But now, after reading his comments in the cab and in the newspaper article, I see that he was an accident waiting to happen. It is amazing at how obviously predictable this disaster was just in the personality of the engineer. This ought be a news story as big as the accident itself. And Amtrak mangement does not possess the knowledge to recognize it. I have stated this to upper management ad nauseam. They don't want to hear it.
I understand that Amtrak is the source of the problem because they hired the engineer without detecting the problem. I can also see why Amtrak will never agree with that point. So the only solution is to force Amtrak to change by getting pressure to bear on them from government.
I find it appropriate to post this again. This was sent to President, Boardman, Moorman, Anderson numerous other Amtrak officials since 2014.
July 24, 2014Amtrak: An accident waiting to happen.....again.I am a recently retired locomotive engineer. My career in engine service spanned the years 1963-2014. I started with the New York, New Haven and Hartford R.R. and after a series of takeovers and mergers I ended my career with Amtrak in 2014. I have experienced many different forms of railroad management techniques from five entities and I must say that Amtrak tops the list as the very worst.Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen. I loosely compare Amtrak's 1983 takeover of operations on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) to Robert Mugabe's takeover of Rhodesia. Mugabe expelled the resident farmers and intellectuals who brought prosperity and technology to the country. Amtrak took over the NEC and installed their own management team eschewing input from the resident veterans. Zimbabwe, formerly Rhodesia, continues to be in dire straits, their currency is worthless and their economy is a shambles. Amtrak is still employing the hit and miss, trial and error tactics it has utilized since inception accompanied by inept,wasteful managerial practices and to this day has still not achieved that which it is capable of. Until recently Amtrak has trundled along despite their inadequacies because their veteran workforce was there to 'bail them out'. That resource is now dwindling and it is showing in recent mishaps. That having been said it is time again to focus on Amtrak's hiring and training practices. During the past eight months Amtrak has had two major incidents,the latest with fatalities, that are a result of their hiring and training procedures coupled with grossly unqualified supervision. Since 2011 I have implored Amtrak management to review their training and hiring practices and use the knowledge and input of their dwindling veteran workforce to no avail. I have written to Chairman of the Board Carper, President Boardman, Vice Presidents of Operations Geary and Stadtler, Vice President of Transportation Phelps, Congressmen John Mica, William Shuster, Senator Charles Grassley, Robert Samuelson of the Washington Post, Brian Ross of ABC, Bill O'Reilly and others pleading with them to have Amtrak review their hiring and training procedures and listen to their seasoned veteran workforce. With the exceptions of Phelps and Stadtler I have been ignored. Phelps answered my letter to Boardman after I sent the same letter three times via registered mail return receipt requested. Stadtler patronized me with a visit to Philadelphia with those responsible for the training program where they very politely nodded their heads in faux concern at my presentation. Sensing their disinterest in what I had to say I called an end to the meeting citing that I felt it was an exercise in futility and took the next train back to New Haven.I have stated repeatedly to all who would listen, and those listed above who did not, that with the right combination of these recently trained individuals it could be a prescription for disaster, a 'perfect storm' if you will. They have ignored all warning signs of impending disasters. There was the incident in November 2013 of an inexperienced and obviously poorly trained crew wandering six miles in the wrong direction on a foreign railroad. Still Amtrak did not review it's training and qualification regimens. Then came Frankford Jct.(added 2016)As a rule I try to refrain to telling anyone that 'I told you so' but after Frankford Jct. I felt that it was appropriate to do so in an effort to demonstratively drive home the fact that Amtrak's training and hiring programs are abject failures and downright dangerous. The following is my email of May15 2015 to Vice President of Operations D.J. Stadtler who has absolutely no previous experience in railroad operations. It was ignored Mr. Stadtler:The recent tragic event in North Philadelphia will have once again brought to light the inadequacies of Amtrak's training and hiring procedures. There are folks out 'there'still who have no business operating trains. Your training and hiring procedures, for lack of a better analogy, have come back to bite you in the ass once again. I had previously attempted to effect change by stressing the value and input of your veteran but aging remaining workforce to no avail.I no longer work for Amtrak , I retired in July 2014 after 51 years in the operating department. That being said I still retain the esprit de corps instilled in me by my employer 50 plus years ago and I feel that I would like to help restore the professionalism that existed before Amtrak and it's cadre of inexperienced managers eroded that attribute. I have a template for hiring and training. Should you be interested in seriously entertaining my ideas, this time, I would be happy to impart them, once again, to you.I have attached the presentation I made to CTO Nichols in December 2013 and my correspondence to then Vice President of Operations Richard Phelps for your perusal.In one of my missives I made reference to a prescription for disaster, a 'perfect storm'if you will, which sadly seems to have come to fruition. This past week on my former home division there was another stop signal violation. The individual involved has an atrocious work record in his 3 year career as an engineer, it was the second stop signal violation in 13 months coupled with a forgotten passenger station stop (Mystic CT), overshooting others due to misjudgment, running over a derail on a track belonging to another railroad where he had no business being and sundry other miscues that were 'overlooked'. Where was supervision?Amtrak has the unknowing teaching the unknowing. If one were to check the pedigree of these so called instructors one would find that they themselves have minimal experience. All of the technology such as Positive Train Control, speed control cab signal etc. cannot preclude proper training and experience because if those systems were to fail, and they do, 90% of the present operating workforce, including supervision, would not have a clue as how to operate.I stand behind all I have stated here. I am supported by my fellow veteran railroad men. I can prove or qualify all that I have stated here and am prepared to do so. Hopefully this missive will find it's way to the proper authority and an oversight committee of experienced railroad operations employees can be established to set the proper guidelines for training personnel for railroad operations on Amtrak.
243129 Sadly professional discipline is a term that is foreign to Amtrak.
blue streak 1 Know that displine in the airline industry is starting to be lacking. Don't be surprized if there is a bunch on incidents similar to the 1940 - 50s.
I don't mean to prompt a 30 page paper, but I sure would like to hear to concise and detailed examples.
Ed
This seems relevant enough to post here:
https://www.railwayage.com/safety/more-than-just-a-glorified-truck-driver/
At first I thought 243129 could be Mr. Riddell, but I see from their biographies that they are from different parts of the country.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
An engineer needs and must know the territory he is operating on and he must know to not operate if he does not know it. Mr. Riddell states it very well.
Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple.
Electroliner 1935 An engineer needs and must know the territory he is operating on and he must know to not operate if he does not know it. Mr. Riddell states it very well. Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple.
It appears to be the general consensus as this has been stated previously by others.
Electroliner 1935Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple.
I read from his interview that he felt sure without a RFE in the cab: https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=464926&docketID=61332&mkey=96974 on page 47/48:
Q. So what made you expect that a road foreman would have been there? A. This was the inaugural run of the train over the new route. I expected the train to be crawling with management. Q. Were you disappointed that a road foreman wouldn't be with you? A. I enjoy the company of our road foremen, so yes. Q. Okay. From a safety operations standpoint, were you concerned? A. I wasn't concerned.
We know that the should have been concerned.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR Electroliner 1935 Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple. I read from his interview that he felt sure without a RFE in the cab: https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=464926&docketID=61332&mkey=96974 on page 47/48: Q. So what made you expect that a road foreman would have been there? A. This was the inaugural run of the train over the new route. I expected the train to be crawling with management. Q. Were you disappointed that a road foreman wouldn't be with you? A. I enjoy the company of our road foremen, so yes. Q. Okay. From a safety operations standpoint, were you concerned? A. I wasn't concerned. We know that the should have been concerned.Regards, Volker
Electroliner 1935 Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple.
Management does not have the knowledge to determine if a candidate possesses the acumen for the position of locomotive engineer.
The culture at Amtrak is that they have the unknowing 'teaching' the unknowing. Were one given the opportunity to query an Amtrak operations manager on his or her knowledge of i.e. cutting cars from a consist I am willing to bet that 90% would not be able to accomplish that task.
Amtrak is certainly another accident waiting to happen.
I just applied for an engineer trainee for Amtrak...
I tried to post a link to the you tube video of Merideth Willson's Music Man song about knowing the territory on the previous post. But for unknown reasons it wasn't included. So I will try again. I think it is relevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
Electroliner 1935 Electroliner 1935 An engineer needs and must know the territory he is operating on and he must know to not operate if he does not know it. Mr. Riddell states it very well. Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple. I tried to post a link to the you tube video of Merideth Willson's Music Man song about knowing the territory on the previous post. But for unknown reasons it wasn't included. So I will try again. I think it is relevant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9U4Cbb4wg
Electroliner 1935 An engineer needs and must know the territory he is operating on and he must know to not operate if he does not know it. Mr. Riddell states it very well. Amtrak and he failed to ensure that he knew the territory. Plain and simple. I tried to post a link to the you tube video of Merideth Willson's Music Man song about knowing the territory on the previous post. But for unknown reasons it wasn't included. So I will try again. I think it is relevant.
The coach had major flat spots on it.
243129The coach had major flat spots on it.
Wataya talk, Wataya Talk.
Electroliner 1935 243129 The coach had major flat spots on it. Wataya talk, Wataya Talk.
243129 The coach had major flat spots on it.
What language is that?
243129 Electroliner 1935 243129 The coach had major flat spots on it. Wataya talk, Wataya Talk. What language is that?
Johnny
Some people think rap was invented a couple of decades later than this.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington Some people think rap was invented a couple of decades later than this.
When you research history - you find out that there is rearly anything 'new'. Most of what we have come to accept as 'modern inventions', had their real start back in the foggy mists of time - the idea for the 'invention' was there a long time before the equipment, materials and 101 other things came together to make the 'invention' a viable product.
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