BaltACD 7j43k Hypothetical: If I drive a car I'm not used to down a road I hardly know on a dark and stormy night, and I arrive at a curve too fast, swerve, and kill two pedestrians, would it be a surprise if I was charged with manslaughter? Or would I walk? I suspect the district attorney would think I should be held accountable for my actions. Is there not a parallel here? Ed Minimal parallel - you are driving a line of sight vehicle. Trains at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.
7j43k Hypothetical: If I drive a car I'm not used to down a road I hardly know on a dark and stormy night, and I arrive at a curve too fast, swerve, and kill two pedestrians, would it be a surprise if I was charged with manslaughter? Or would I walk? I suspect the district attorney would think I should be held accountable for my actions. Is there not a parallel here? Ed
If I drive a car I'm not used to down a road I hardly know on a dark and stormy night, and I arrive at a curve too fast, swerve, and kill two pedestrians, would it be a surprise if I was charged with manslaughter? Or would I walk?
I suspect the district attorney would think I should be held accountable for my actions.
Is there not a parallel here?
Ed
Minimal parallel - you are driving a line of sight vehicle. Trains at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.
That is not an excuse for unsafe operation.
You were not 'qualified' by a 'responsible' authority concerning your abilities to operate safely on that particular stretch of road.
Neither is that one. The implication is that if a "responsible authority" blessed me, I get a get-out-of-jail card. Really?
Your drivers license equates to the engineers certification card in that both of you have been certified to operate the vehicles covered by the certification. However, in railroading a certified engineer must ALSO be QUALIFIED on the specific territory(s) the engineer is permitted and/or required to operate upon. Drivers do not obtain anything like a engineers qualification to operate on any individual road, street or highway.
Still not an excuse to operate in an unsafe manner. "Hey, I'm qualified." Get-out-of-jail card?
The Engineer will be dealt with in a manner that befits the situation.
By whom? The DA of the county where it happened? That's usually who brings manslaughter charges.
Amtrak management also needs to be dealt with for qualifying individuals on the 'new route' that were not in fact QUALIFIED.
Yup! An amazingly slipshod operation.
Everything that happens in the world is not criminal.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Everything that happens in the world is not criminal.
Amtrak's training procedures are criminal.
243129That man should never have been hired for the position of locomotive engineer. He did not possess the acumen for that position.
You and others have suggested the engineer should never have been hired. Acumen implies a lck of a specific form of intelligence. How does Amtrak (or other railroads) determine this attribute? Some type of testing? If the only requirement is a HS diploma, perhaps that is insufficient.
charlie hebdo 243129 That man should never have been hired for the position of locomotive engineer. He did not possess the acumen for that position. You and others have suggested the engineer should never have been hired. Acumen implies a lck of a specific form of intelligence. How does Amtrak (or other railroads) determine this attribute? Some type of testing? If the only requirement is a HS diploma, perhaps that is insufficient.
243129 That man should never have been hired for the position of locomotive engineer. He did not possess the acumen for that position.
An experienced engineer can certainly tell if candidate has the acumen for the position. Amtrak has so far squandered that resource.
Acumen may be lacking, but I think there is something else at work here. Anyone can lose situational awareness. That is an objective fact. But there are two ways in which people can react to that fact. One way is to have the personal resolve that it will never happen to them because they won’t let it. The other way is to say because anyone can lose situational awareness; they are entitled to lose it without being blamed for the consequences. They will say they are only human and therefore cannot guarantee that they won’t lose situational awareness, but they will try not to. They will say that is the best they can offer.
Now it is still true that even the person who resolves not to lose situational awareness may in fact lose it. But the difference between the two individuals is their attitude.
In my opinion, Amtrak as an employer would tend to not make a distinction between these two attitudes. They may not even recognize the difference. I believe that particularly because of Amtrak being a public sector employer, they would tend to encourage the personal empowerment and human right of asserting that anyone can lose situational awareness; as opposed to trying to select people with a sort of “right stuff” in an attitude that they resolve to never lose situational awareness. To some people, the “right stuff” or steely resolve is offensive. It seems too aggressive, and too judgmental. I believe this attitude is quite likely to be strong inside of the Amtrak employment and hiring culture.
I am not saying that Amtrak simply lacks the skills, expertise, intelligence, or wisdom to hire the people with steely resolve. I am saying that they are failing to do it because it goes against their grain. Their hiring culture lacks the same “right stuff” as do some of the people they hire who also lack it.
This engineer of 503 lost situational awareness, and may have failed to realize he had lost it. But in my opinion he is the type of person who would feel he had the right to lose it because it can happen to anybody. And yes it can happen to anybody, but his mistake was indeed a failure to resolve not to lose it, because the issue is so very important. By his nature, he did not try hard enough not to lose situational awareness. If had the resolve to not lose situational awareness, he would have tried a lot harder not to lose it. For example, as soon as he learned about the 30 mph curve, he would have recognized that it comes up in 79 mph territory, and a failure to slow to 30 would be disastrous.
So he would have looked at maps, track charts, and local landmarks. He would have learned mileposts and their relationship with landmarks. He would have made diagrams and sketches. He would have made a strong plan to not fail to slow down for that curve. But that is not the kind of person he was. He was a person who could always forgive himself for his mistakes. In a way that is a virtue, but it also can be a lazy, easy way out.
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 That man should never have been hired for the position of locomotive engineer. He did not possess the acumen for that position. You and others have suggested the engineer should never have been hired. Acumen implies a lck of a specific form of intelligence. How does Amtrak (or other railroads) determine this attribute? Some type of testing? If the only requirement is a HS diploma, perhaps that is insufficient. An experienced engineer can certainly tell if candidate has the acumen for the position. Amtrak has so far squandered that resource.
Possibly so, but a competent HR department prefers to first use objective measures that can be shown to correlate with job descriptions and skills in order to avoid legal problems. An interview with a skilled engineer might follow.
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo 243129 That man should never have been hired for the position of locomotive engineer. He did not possess the acumen for that position. You and others have suggested the engineer should never have been hired. Acumen implies a lck of a specific form of intelligence. How does Amtrak (or other railroads) determine this attribute? Some type of testing? If the only requirement is a HS diploma, perhaps that is insufficient. An experienced engineer can certainly tell if candidate has the acumen for the position. Amtrak has so far squandered that resource. Possibly so, but competent HR department prefer to first use objective measures that can be shown to correlate with job descriptions and skills in order to avoid legal problems. An interview with a skilled engineer might follow.
Possibly so, but competent HR department prefer to first use objective measures that can be shown to correlate with job descriptions and skills in order to avoid legal problems. An interview with a skilled engineer might follow.
Lets face one fact - the man was 55 years of age. He didn't get his Engineer's Certificate yesterday. How many years had he been operating 'successfully' on the old route, or at least operating without catastrophic incident.
Engineers like the rest of us all fit somewhere in the bell curve concerning our abilities to perform specific functions. Not everyone is in the top 1%, not everybody is in the bottom 1% - 98% fit somewhere in between.
HR is not going to hire a work force that doesn't span a large part of the bell curve of human performance - it is the nature of the beast. They will hire the most 'qualified' candidates they can find - but they only have a field of those that apply - not every individual in existance and they also have Management saying we need X number of bodies. (Management views craft positions as 'bodies' - not individuals that are skilled at what they do.) HR may pick the best bodies they can but the may not be getting the best of bodies to choose from.
The reality is the engineer was so lost he never realized that he was lost - that is the worst kind of lost.
BaltACDLets face one fact - the man was 55 years of age. He didn't get his Engineer's Certificate yesterday. How many years had he been operating 'successfully' on the old route, or at least operating without catastrophic incident. Engineers like the rest of us all fit somewhere in the bell curve concerning our abilities to perform specific functions. Not everyone is in the top 1%, not everybody is in the bottom 1% - 98% fit somewhere in between.
Perhaps he had been lucky up to that point and was overconfident. Reading the transcript does suggest a guy with a rather careless attitude toward his duties. I specifically did not suggest an IQ test. But there are instruments that do measure pertinent traits such as conscientiousness, which did seem to be lacking. Someone with lives in their charge better be closer to the mean on that and possibly other dimensions, not near the bottom of the barrel.
charlie hebdo BaltACD Lets face one fact - the man was 55 years of age. He didn't get his Engineer's Certificate yesterday. How many years had he been operating 'successfully' on the old route, or at least operating without catastrophic incident. Engineers like the rest of us all fit somewhere in the bell curve concerning our abilities to perform specific functions. Not everyone is in the top 1%, not everybody is in the bottom 1% - 98% fit somewhere in between. Perhaps he had been lucky up to that point and was overconfident. Reading the transcript does suggest a guy with a rather careless attitude toward his duties. I specifically did not suggest an IQ test. But there are instruments that do measure pertinent traits such as conscientiousness, which did seem to be lacking. Someone with lives in their charge better be closer to the mean on that and possibly other dimensions, not near the bottom of the barrel.
BaltACD Lets face one fact - the man was 55 years of age. He didn't get his Engineer's Certificate yesterday. How many years had he been operating 'successfully' on the old route, or at least operating without catastrophic incident. Engineers like the rest of us all fit somewhere in the bell curve concerning our abilities to perform specific functions. Not everyone is in the top 1%, not everybody is in the bottom 1% - 98% fit somewhere in between.
Should a individual be 'tested' everyday before performing their duties? We are talking real world here. I have never stated he was 'sharpest tool in the box'. I have worked with individuals whose IQ's were in the MENSA range and whose job performance was piss poor. Tests don't highlight all the factors that go into making a competent, loyal, responsible and valuable employee. Presumably the engineer passed any and all tests that were administered at the time he was hired - what those tests were are unknown to us and will remain unknown to us.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - foresight is always 20/400 or worse!
BaltACD The reality is the engineer was so lost he never realized that he was lost - that is the worst kind of lost.
He knew he was lost. He said so himself on the Onboard Image recorder link. Read it.
He knew he was lost yet he never slowed down in order to get his bearings and when he saw the 30 mph curve (which everybody hated) he did not even apply the brakes in emergency! This man should have never been allowed to run trains. Evidentally RFE Beatson is of minimal qualification himself as he did not recognize this man's incompetence. Incompetence is rife within Amtrak's operating department. Amtrak is lucky these disasters have not occured more often. Stay tuned folks because if Amtrak does not submit to oversight from experienced operations personnel there will be more disasters. I would like nothing better than to be wrong but.....
BaltACD . Presumably the engineer passed any and all tests that were administered at the time he was hired - what those tests were are unknown to us and will remain unknown to us. Hindsight is always 20/20 - foresight is always 20/400 or worse!
. Presumably the engineer passed any and all tests that were administered at the time he was hired - what those tests were are unknown to us and will remain unknown to us.
You can pass all the tests but learning to apply what was on those tests can only be taught in the field.
He didn't lose situational awareness- he never had it. He knew he did not have it and operated his train without regard for his own and others lives.
He was 55 years old and been an engineer for 5 years. So compared to engineers of old, he got his license yesterday.
243129He knew he was lost. He said so himself on the Onboard Image recorder link. Read it.
I read it and the only statement coming close to your description is this:
6:17:22ENG.......they’ve been changing so much, I still get lost sometimes down here if they send me down, like, main three down in, like, kelso or something [laughing]
As it is his first revenue run on this route with just familiarization run I doubt it is about this bypass. Kelso, WA is close to the Columbia River.
I haven't found anything else indicating that he realized before the curve that he was lost. If you found something else, please show.Regards, Volker
charlie hebdoNever suggested testing every day. I was talking about employment screening tests to see if this guy should have been even hired. Appropriate tests are used in many fields. Are you suggesting nothing should be done? "Hindsight is always 20/20 - foresight is always 20/400 or worse!" Another cliche. Progress is made by examining mistakes of the past and changing procedures in the present and future, but you seem to subscribe to that mother of all excuses to do nothing: " S*** happens."
It has been my observation of the industry that in non-NEC locations Amtrak did not do the initial hiring and training of Engineers. Many of the people that end up being engineers on Amtrak began their careers on other railroads where they initially obtained their Engineers Certificate.
When Amtrak needs Engineers, they go raiding other railroads offering a 'more stable working enviornment' with more controlled hours and runs than are typically available on Class 1 freight carriers. What form of vetting Amtrak does of the engineers they poach from the freight carriers and what additional training they provide is unknown.
S..t happens when you don't take the time and effort to really investigate and understand why the s..t happened in the first place. Shoot from the hip cause assessment rarely gets to the root cause. Prevention programs can only be effective if they begin by identifying the root cause and then apply sound actions to eliminate both the root and the path from it that ended up being contributory factors in the ultimate failure(s). Managements rarely acknowledge that they are a part of the root cause.
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 He knew he was lost. He said so himself on the Onboard Image recorder link. Read it. I read it and the only statement coming close to your description is this: 6:17:22ENG.......they’ve been changing so much, I still get lost sometimes down here if they send me down, like, main three down in, like, kelso or something [laughing] As it is his first revenue run on this route with just familiarization run I doubt it is about this bypass. Kelso, WA is close to the Columbia River. I haven't found anything else indicating that he realized before the curve that he was lost. If you found something else, please show.Regards, Volker
243129 He knew he was lost. He said so himself on the Onboard Image recorder link. Read it.
This less than two minutes before the disaster:
Here NTSB seems to hope that safety management systems might help. From my own experience I have my doubts.
To make it work Amtrak needs to develop an error management culture, where everyone has to report and document his own mistakes and those of others perhaps anonymously. How that is going to work in an atmosphere were the slightest rule violation is followed by harsh disciplinary action I don't see.Regards, Volker
243129He cites the 30 mph curve as to being hated by all, admits he is lost yet takes no action to deterrmine his location and when he sees the curve (too late) he goes to handle off instead of emergency ???
Where does he cite the 30 mph curve at to being hated by all? I can't find that in the transcript.
Euclid 243129 He cites the 30 mph curve as to being hated by all, admits he is lost yet takes no action to deterrmine his location and when he sees the curve (too late) he goes to handle off instead of emergency ??? Where does he cite the 30 mph curve at to being hated by all? I can't find that in the transcript.
243129 He cites the 30 mph curve as to being hated by all, admits he is lost yet takes no action to deterrmine his location and when he sees the curve (too late) he goes to handle off instead of emergency ???
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/everybody-hated-that-curve-amtrak-engineer-told-of-worries-before-december-crash-south-of-tacoma/
243129This less than two minutes before the disaster: 7:31:20 ENG yeah, ok. pretty good hill right there. looks like we're gonna go down. He is speculating.
Speculating or explaining and an indication that he is lost but not that he already had realized it.
The testimony was how many weeks after the accident? For me it is a recollection as a result quite some time considering what had happened.
I still think he realized is fault when the Charger derailed.Regards, Volker
I think the testimony was 4 weeks after the event. And I agree that recollections can (unconciously or not!) start changing as soon as they're formed--especially when it's in one's best interests.
Far more factual is the transcript of the event.
Why did engineer miss speed restriction ? It was stated somewhere else that visibility is restricted in a Charger , Any truth ? If visibility is restricted maybe at different angles than P-42s maybe engineer without running a charger before did not know how to look around restrictions to observe signage ? Not much of a possibility but something to look into.
I just quickly went through the transcript, again.
I notice he didn't share his concern with the upcoming 30 MPH curve with the conductor, nor did he share how he intended to handle it.
I also think I see in the photo "7:33:38" a red signal ahead at milepost 19.8. That was .2 miles out ahead. If it is red, I am wondering why, in that .2 mile, he never slowed.
Could have helped immensly.
243129 Euclid 243129 He cites the 30 mph curve as to being hated by all, admits he is lost yet takes no action to deterrmine his location and when he sees the curve (too late) he goes to handle off instead of emergency ??? Where does he cite the 30 mph curve at to being hated by all? I can't find that in the transcript. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/everybody-hated-that-curve-amtrak-engineer-told-of-worries-before-december-crash-south-of-tacoma/
Wow. I had never seen that information about the engineer's knowledge and opinions about the curve before. I thought he had just sort of passively learned about it in the training trips, and had not given it further thought. It is just amazing how much thought he had given it. I will have to read that transcript of the conversation he had about the curve with an official prior to the trip. The picture painted by all these details coming to light is just profound. The crash was almost scripted to occur. He was definitely lost and knew he was lost, as you say. And yet he kept going full speed hoping to find the proper approach to the curve so he could slow down for it. Simply unbelievable!
Euclid 243129 Euclid 243129 He cites the 30 mph curve as to being hated by all, admits he is lost yet takes no action to deterrmine his location and when he sees the curve (too late) he goes to handle off instead of emergency ??? Where does he cite the 30 mph curve at to being hated by all? I can't find that in the transcript. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/everybody-hated-that-curve-amtrak-engineer-told-of-worries-before-december-crash-south-of-tacoma/ Wow. I had never seen that information about the engineer's knowledge and opinions about the curve before. I thought he had just sort of passively learned about it in the training trips, and had not given it further thought. It is just amazing how much thought he had given it. I will have to read that transcript of the conversation he had about the curve with an official prior to the trip. The picture painted by all these details coming to light is just profound. The crash was almost scripted to occur. He was definitely lost and knew he was lost, as you say. And yet he kept going full speed hoping to find the proper approach to the curve so he could slow down for it. Simply unbelievable!
All the training in the world won't compensate for being dumb and incapble of good judgment. As they say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
Everybody hated that curve. And yet there was no mention of it at all in the transcript from the cab. If I hated that curve, I think I would have shared my concern with the other guy in the cab. He did, after all, joke around how I didn't know the territory.
And, about that red signal in the distance I mentioned? Any thoughts?
7j43kHe did, after all, joke around how I didn't know the territory.
He joked about getting lost sometimes when sent down, like to Kelso. That is far south from DuPont near the Columbia River.Regards, Volker
charlie hebdoAll the training in the world won't compensate for being dumb and incapble of good judgment. As they say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
To call the engineer dumb might be a bit far fetched. From transcript of his interview with NTSB: Question: Can you give us a little bit of history about your work experience, both at Amtrak and any other previous railroads, or your experience in the transportation industry?
Answer: Well, I have a degree in transportation, a bachelor's in business transportation. And I worked for United Airlines from 1987 to 2004, and I worked at Amtrak from 2004 until now.Regards, Volker
There is a difference between educated and smart.
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