Wick Moorman at Amtrak, Any Big News Yet??

[oltmannd]

So, this is a zombie thread....

But, we all speculated a lot 2-1/2 years ago.  What'd we get right?  What'd we get wrong?

New locos?  Yes. 

New corridor equipment?  In progress. 

New LD equipment?  Not yet. 

Routes?  Anderson says 5-10 LD routes as "exeriential" trains ala Canadian.

Service:  New interiors, revamped cafe car menus. 

LD food: still a hot potato.  Or a cold potato.  Or a flash frozen convection oven heated potato.

[conrailman]

When Amtrak gets a good bill from Congress or Trump. Amtrak should place big order of Superliners cars and more Viewliners, New LD engines, New Cars for NEC too. Amtrak needs to think Big not small like they was think for years.

[CMStPnP]

conrailman

New Cars are better to maintain than 35 years old cars. They don't make the parts anymore for old cars.

Plus, Amtrak's Beach Grove is known more for Passenger Car bastardization (specifically mentioned was improper welding, band-aids vs perm repair to cracks, etc) then properly fixing a passenger car.......at least that is what the Private Passenger Car Owners say and I don't know a single one that uses Beach Grove for contractual repairs.   A number of those IP Cars were formerly maintained by Beach Grove.

  Agreed I would prefer newer equipment than riding on those older cars.

[conrailman]

n012944

 

conrailman

New Cars are better to maintain than 35 years old cars. They don't make the parts anymore for old cars.

 

 

 

 

Its amazing what one can do with a good machine shop and a fleet of cars to take parts off of.

Since certain posters like to make comparisons between aircraft fleets and railcar fleets, well....

 

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/delta-buys-sas-md-80s-parts

 

 

 

 That Why Amtrak got rid of AEM-7 Engines on NEC , because they don't make parts for that engine anymore.

[n012944]

conrailman

New Cars are better to maintain than 35 years old cars. They don't make the parts anymore for old cars.

 

Its amazing what one can do with a good machine shop and a fleet of cars to take parts off of.

Since certain posters like to make comparisons between aircraft fleets and railcar fleets, well....

 

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/delta-buys-sas-md-80s-parts

[conrailman]

New Cars are better to maintain than 35 years old cars. They don't make the parts anymore for old cars.

[n012944]

oltmannd

 

 

 

 

Age doesn't matter.  It might make sense to retruck the Superliner 1's with Amtrak's current standard, though.  

A rebuild would otherwise make them "like new".  Strip down to carbody and completely rewire and bring plumbing up to snuff.  Rebuild all the mechanicals and support equipment. New interior and away you go for another 20-25 years or so.  Good as new at half or 2/3 the cost of new.

 

 

But, but older cars are bad.  I would much rather ride an Acela coach through the farm lands of middle America......

[schlimm]

CMStPnP

 

 

ROBERT WILLISON

Who thinks that Iowa Pacific Hoosier state cars received the same kind of rebuilding, other than cosmetically being touched up and work mandated by the 40 year inspection.

 

 

 

The other thing I don't understand with Mr. Ellis.    Why he would pay good money to paint over stainless steel when he could have acid washed it instead.    It isn't cheap to paint a passenger car and I am not sure it is less expensive than an acid wash and refinsh of the stainless steel.    But not an expert.    Would be curious to find out.    Understood they all look better in the same paint scheme but in the long run maintenance wise wouldn't it have been cheaper converting the painted cars over to stainless steel cover?

 

I guess he was an IC fan?

 

[CMStPnP]

ROBERT WILLISON

Who thinks that Iowa Pacific Hoosier state cars received the same kind of rebuilding, other than cosmetically being touched up and work mandated by the 40 year inspection.

The other thing I don't understand with Mr. Ellis.    Why he would pay good money to paint over stainless steel when he could have acid washed it instead.    It isn't cheap to paint a passenger car and I am not sure it is less expensive than an acid wash and refinsh of the stainless steel.    But not an expert.    Would be curious to find out.    Understood they all look better in the same paint scheme but in the long run maintenance wise wouldn't it have been cheaper converting the painted cars over to stainless steel cover?

[schlimm]

ROBERT WILLISON

Who thinks that Iowa Pacific Hoosier state cars received the same kind of rebuilding, other than cosmetically being touched up and work mandated by the 40 year inspection.

 

The usual suspects will!!  

Hoosier State passenger loadings Oct-Dec 2016 were about 9.6% above the period one year earlier. This amounts to 726 more passengers, less than 14 more per run.  One wonders if it was worth the contract? 

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Who thinks that Iowa Pacific Hoosier state cars received the same kind of rebuilding, other than cosmetically being touched up and work mandated by the 40 year inspection.

[conrailman]

Electroliner 1935

During a Nov 7th Cincinnati Railroad Club  tour of Amtrak's Beech Grove Repair Facility shops, we saw a number of Superliners in various stages of refurbishment. They put them on shop trucks, strip all paint and decals off the exterior, remove all of the interior, replace the HVAC, deep clean the waste retention tanks, rewire what needs upgrading, install new water heaters, etc. Rebuild the trucks, repaint the exterior and send a car that is ready for years of service. I did not get a feel for how many cars were in plans for rebuilds. They had reduced the head count and I suspect that they are not rebuilding as many as need rotation through the shops.

 

 

 Any Pictures??

[Electroliner 1935]

During a Nov 7th Cincinnati Railroad Club  tour of Amtrak's Beech Grove Repair Facility shops, we saw a number of Superliners in various stages of refurbishment. They put them on shop trucks, strip all paint and decals off the exterior, remove all of the interior, replace the HVAC, deep clean the waste retention tanks, rewire what needs upgrading, install new water heaters, etc. Rebuild the trucks, repaint the exterior and send a car that is ready for years of service. I did not get a feel for how many cars were in plans for rebuilds. They had reduced the head count and I suspect that they are not rebuilding as many as need rotation through the shops.

[oltmannd]

conrailman

 

 

oltmannd

 

JPS1

 

 

oltmannd

 

.....I'd root for AC rebuilds of P42's, though.  Most bang for the buck and not icky Tier 4 involvement.

.....My hunch is that we'll see new NEC cars before we see new or more Superliners.  Those things will last forever and Amtrak doesn't need more. A good refitting is in order, though.  Perhaps Viewliner coaches? 

 

 

Oltmannd:

What would be the practicable life expectancy for a rebuilt P42?  Same question with respect for rebuilt Superliner cars.

I would be surprised if there is any money for new cars for the long distance trains.  It appears Amtrak will have to rely on what they have and refurbish it. 

 

 

 

 

I would think you could get another 20-25 years out of them, just doing the usual heavy maintenance along the way. Converting them to AC should help with reliability, too.

 I agree that we won't see any new long distance cars, but complete rebuilding would certainly be a necessity, probably soon.

There just isn't any new technology (other than AC conversion of locomotives) that would render any the P42s or Superliners obsolete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Superliners 1 are 35 plus years old and Superliner 2 are 23 years old cars. We should least replace the Superliners 1 with a New Car Order. Since the 1 are 35 years old.

 

Age doesn't matter.  It might make sense to retruck the Superliner 1's with Amtrak's current standard, though.  

A rebuild would otherwise make them "like new".  Strip down to carbody and completely rewire and bring plumbing up to snuff.  Rebuild all the mechanicals and support equipment. New interior and away you go for another 20-25 years or so.  Good as new at half or 2/3 the cost of new.

[conrailman]

oltmannd

 

JPS1

 

 

oltmannd

 

.....I'd root for AC rebuilds of P42's, though.  Most bang for the buck and not icky Tier 4 involvement.

.....My hunch is that we'll see new NEC cars before we see new or more Superliners.  Those things will last forever and Amtrak doesn't need more. A good refitting is in order, though.  Perhaps Viewliner coaches? 

 

 

Oltmannd:

What would be the practicable life expectancy for a rebuilt P42?  Same question with respect for rebuilt Superliner cars.

I would be surprised if there is any money for new cars for the long distance trains.  It appears Amtrak will have to rely on what they have and refurbish it. 

 

 

 

 

I would think you could get another 20-25 years out of them, just doing the usual heavy maintenance along the way. Converting them to AC should help with reliability, too.

 I agree that we won't see any new long distance cars, but complete rebuilding would certainly be a necessity, probably soon.

There just isn't any new technology (other than AC conversion of locomotives) that would render any the P42s or Superliners obsolete.

 

 

 

 The Superliners 1 are 35 plus years old and Superliner 2 are 23 years old cars. We should least replace the Superliners 1 with a New Car Order. Since the 1 are 35 years old.

[oltmannd]

JPS1

 

 

oltmannd

 

.....I'd root for AC rebuilds of P42's, though.  Most bang for the buck and not icky Tier 4 involvement.

.....My hunch is that we'll see new NEC cars before we see new or more Superliners.  Those things will last forever and Amtrak doesn't need more. A good refitting is in order, though.  Perhaps Viewliner coaches? 

 

 

Oltmannd:

What would be the practicable life expectancy for a rebuilt P42?  Same question with respect for rebuilt Superliner cars.

I would be surprised if there is any money for new cars for the long distance trains.  It appears Amtrak will have to rely on what they have and refurbish it. 

 

I would think you could get another 20-25 years out of them, just doing the usual heavy maintenance along the way. Converting them to AC should help with reliability, too.

 I agree that we won't see any new long distance cars, but complete rebuilding would certainly be a necessity, probably soon.

There just isn't any new technology (other than AC conversion of locomotives) that would render any the P42s or Superliners obsolete.

[PJS1]

oltmannd

 

.....I'd root for AC rebuilds of P42's, though.  Most bang for the buck and not icky Tier 4 involvement.

.....My hunch is that we'll see new NEC cars before we see new or more Superliners.  Those things will last forever and Amtrak doesn't need more. A good refitting is in order, though.  Perhaps Viewliner coaches? 

Oltmannd:

What would be the practicable life expectancy for a rebuilt P42?  Same question with respect for rebuilt Superliner cars.

I would be surprised if there is any money for new cars for the long distance trains.  It appears Amtrak will have to rely on what they have and refurbish it. 

[RR Johnson]

RR Johnson

 

 

bill613a

It would be hard to add any LD routes as AMTRAK has no extra equipment.  What could be done is to revisit the PRIIAs of 2008-2010 to reconfigure the existing network.

1. Transfer a sleeper and at least one coach from the LSL to the CL to provide thru service to Philadelphia and NYC.  Make the PITT-NYC segment a section of the CL and negotiate with Pennsylvania for a second NY-PITT train. Reroute the tain thru Fort Wayne and Butler, IN.

2. Split the METEOR at Jacksonville with the Miami section running via the FEC.

3. Extend the PALMETTO to Jacksonville.

4. Whenever the Wisconsin Talgos enter California service the freed up Horizon and Amfleet cars along with several of the new Viewliner II sleepers should be put in service on the proposed NO-ORL train. 

5.Get the VERMONTER into Montreal.

6. Bisect the CARDINAL. Run a daily NY-CIN service combing with

the PALMETTO NY-DC together with a daily

CIN-IND-CHI train on a schedule that makes the western connections.

 

 

 

 

All:  Why not extend the Heartland Flyer to meet #3 & 4 (the SW Chief) at Newton, KS overnight using the same equipment, instead of leaving it sit at Oklahoma City, all night. Run the San Joaquin's with connecting buses to LA overnight. Run the Cascades overnight. Run the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack overnight, all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City; and why not scrounge up some of the now surplus Iowa Pacific equipment including maybe a sleeper or two, and run overnight between Chicago, Milwaukee and the Twin Cities!!  These are huge untapped markets!!...............Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson).

 

 

All: (continued) You know, if you throw enough crazy, outside the box ideas against the wall, some of them just might stick. Almost all of these city pairs had overnight trains running until the 50's and 60's. With the ongoing financial and thermodynamic collapse of the fossil fuel industry (rapidly declining net energy), I truly believe that there will soon be an enormous demand for many new passenger start-ups, including overnight trains. And yes, let's put mail and express on them again, also.  The airlines will soon be on their knees again do to the coming financial catastrophe. We haven't been able to even begin to fix our crumbling highway infrastructure (the U.S. reached peak concrete consumption in 2005 and this a very good gauge for assessing our freeway maintenance   decline). Freight traffic on all modes will be in a general decline, as most consumers, corporations, governments are completely maxed out in massive unprecedented debt in truly epic terms. There will soon be lots of room on our excellent freight railroads for more passenger trains with a maximum speed of 79mph to 90mph. Now, if we could just get the politicians and a few billionaires on board, like daddyWARRENbucks, (aka Mr Buffet). There are many, many geologists in the fossil fuel industry, that are painting a very dark near future for our hustling industrial civilization. Some predict that most gas stations in our country could be gone in 5 to 10 years, and they won't be replaced with hi-tech, self driving electric cars, either. We may have trouble just keeping the lights on (see Ted Koppel's book "Lights Out"). Meanwhile, most highly distracted Americans, continue to live in delusiostan, thinking they will go on joyriding forever, and their firm believe that the tooth fairy with furnish all the fuel and electricity that they'll ever need (just more hopeium). ....... Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)   

[RR Johnson]

RR Johnson

 

 

bill613a

It would be hard to add any LD routes as AMTRAK has no extra equipment.  What could be done is to revisit the PRIIAs of 2008-2010 to reconfigure the existing network.

1. Transfer a sleeper and at least one coach from the LSL to the CL to provide thru service to Philadelphia and NYC.  Make the PITT-NYC segment a section of the CL and negotiate with Pennsylvania for a second NY-PITT train. Reroute the tain thru Fort Wayne and Butler, IN.

2. Split the METEOR at Jacksonville with the Miami section running via the FEC.

3. Extend the PALMETTO to Jacksonville.

4. Whenever the Wisconsin Talgos enter California service the freed up Horizon and Amfleet cars along with several of the new Viewliner II sleepers should be put in service on the proposed NO-ORL train. 

5.Get the VERMONTER into Montreal.

6. Bisect the CARDINAL. Run a daily NY-CIN service combing with

the PALMETTO NY-DC together with a daily

CIN-IND-CHI train on a schedule that makes the western connections.

 

 

 

 

All:  Why not extend the Heartland Flyer to meet #3 & 4 (the SW Chief) at Newton, KS overnight using the same equipment, instead of leaving it sit at Oklahoma City, all night. Run the San Joaquin's with connecting buses to LA overnight. Run the Cascades overnight. Run the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack overnight, all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City; and why not scrounge up some of the now surplus Iowa Pacific equipment including maybe a sleeper or two, and run overnight between Chicago, Milwaukee and the Twin Cities!!  These are huge untapped markets!!...............Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson).

 

 

All: (continued) You know, if you throw enough crazy, outside the box ideas against the wall, some of them just might stick. Almost all of these city pairs had overnight trains running until the 50's and 60's. With the ongoing financial and thermodynamic collapse of the fossil fuel industry (rapidly declining net energy), I truly believe that there will soon be an enormous demand for many new passenger start-ups, including overnight trains. The airlines will soon be on their knees again do to the coming financial catastrophe. We haven't been able to even begin to fix our crumbling highway infrastructure (the U.S. reached peak concrete consumption in 2005 and this a very good gauge for assessing our freeway maintenance   decline). Freight traffic on all modes will be in a general decline, as most consumers, corporations, governments are completely maxed out in massive unprecedented debt in truly epic terms. There will soon be lots of room on our excellent freight railroads for more passenger trains with a maximum speed of 79mph to 90mph. Now, if we could just get the politicians and a few billionaires on board, like daddyWARRENbucks, (aka Mr Buffet). There are many, many geologists in the fossil fuel industry, that are painting a very dark near future for our hustling industrial civilization. Some predict that most gas stations in our country could be gone in 5 to 10 years, and they won't be replaced with hi-tech, self driving electric cars, either. We may have trouble just keeping the lights on (see Ted Koppel's book "Lights Out"). Meanwhile, most highly distracted Americans, continue to live in delusiostan, thinking they will go on joyriding forever, and their firm believe that the tooth fairy with furnish all the fuel and electricity that they'll ever need (just more hopeium). ....... Yours truly, Edward Johnson (aka RRJohnson)   

[schlimm]

bill613a

Who said anything about sleepers? On a trial basis why not a weekemd only CHI-STL & CHI-DET service to tap the numerous colleges on these routes and people going to/from Chicago?

 

Amtrak has several additional Midwest routes that serve colleges. But night trains make little sense on ~2-6 hour runs.

[daveklepper]

I generally slept well in sleeping cars.  There were a few exceptions, the Buffalo shuffle, well reported. and similarly in an Everglades 14-roomette ACL car at Florence.  Otherwise, in everything from Double Bedroom to single Slumbercoach and a Newfoiundland narrow-gauge upper berth, no complaints.  I found it far, far more convenient and relaxing to sleep overnight than to rush on an evening flight or fast train to spnd a night in a hotel.  I must have used the Owl between Boston and NYC at least 200 times, and the Federal Boston - Baltimore or Washington 100 times.

Somehow, the PRR Harrisburg shuffle was never as bad as the Central at Buffalo.  And the few I times I was able to use the Century, I appreciated the lack of Buiffalo shuffle.  And somehow, when the name trains were discontinued, and we only had the "The Steel Fleet," the shuffle was ameliarated and did not get worse.  Wonder why?  Maybe more time to do the car sorting?  Possibly the fact that cars were now grouped as to origin and destination, without pure separation of sleeper and coach, helped.

[bill613a]

If you had taken an earlier train into Chicago you could have stayed for a Cubs or White Sox night game.

[MidlandMike]

bill613a

Who said anything about sleepers? On a trial basis why not a weekemd only CHI-STL & CHI-DET service to tap the numerous colleges on these routes and people going to/from Chicago?

 

On the Detroit Route the big colleges along the line are WMU in Kalamazoo (which I attended) and UofM in Ann Arbor and Wayne State in Detroit.  i never would have gotten up in the middle of the night to take a coach to Chicago 3 hours away. 

[bill613a]

Who said anything about sleepers? On a trial basis why not a weekemd only CHI-STL & CHI-DET service to tap the numerous colleges on these routes and people going to/from Chicago?

[ROBERT WILLISON]

schlimm

 

 

MidlandMike

 

 

RR Johnson

... Run the Cascades overnight...  all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City...These are huge untapped markets!!...

 

 

 

Run overnight trains on 5 hour routes?  These are not untapped markets, these are irrational markets.

 

 

 

 

As Mike says, why would anyone other than some nostalgia buffs want to ride in a sleeper for a night ride of 9-10 hours (9pm-7am) on a line where 5 hours is standard and you could sleep much better in a hotel.

CHI-MSP might work.  The Milwaukee Road ran the Pioneer Ltd. on a 9-9.5 hour overnight schedule as late as Oct. 1968.

The Burlington ran the Blackhawk on a 9.5 hour overnight schedule as late as June 1968, but it was combined with the Mainstreeter and Western Star which ran to Seattle.

 

I think to a certain extent you boys have this wrong. I rode the lake shore for over a year, Albany to Chicago, making the round trip  twice a month on the company dime on a sleeper. I found the sleeper count was almost divided equally between long distance thru sleeper passengers and the ones you say don't exist. Short haul sleeper passengers boarding in Kingston, NY, Hudson NY, Albany, Schenectady, Syracuse,Rochester and Buffalo NY.  Why? Air service is either non existent, inconvenient or expensive.  The lsl normally runs with 2 NYC sleepers and back then a bos sleeper. The sleepers often sold out.  I often booked the sleeper  ,on #  449, the bos slerper, if #  49 was sold out. Let's not be so hasty to say no markets exist for this kind of service, I experienced it first hand and was a short haul passenger.

[schlimm]

MidlandMike

 

 

RR Johnson

... Run the Cascades overnight...  all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City...These are huge untapped markets!!...

 

 

 

Run overnight trains on 5 hour routes?  These are not untapped markets, these are irrational markets.

 

As Mike says, why would anyone other than some nostalgia buffs want to ride in a sleeper for a night ride of 9-10 hours (9pm-7am) on a line where 5 hours is standard and you could sleep much better in a hotel.

CHI-MSP might work.  The Milwaukee Road ran the Pioneer Ltd. on a 9-9.5 hour overnight schedule as late as Oct. 1968.

The Burlington ran the Blackhawk on a 9.5 hour overnight schedule as late as June 1968, but it was combined with the Mainstreeter and Western Star which ran to Seattle.

[Deggesty]

MidlandMike

 

 

RR Johnson

... Run the Cascades overnight...  all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City...These are huge untapped markets!!...

 

 

 

Run overnight trains on 5 hour routes?  These are not untapped markets, these are irrational markets.

 

A night mail train might be reasonable--but the Cascades are not mail trains.

[MidlandMike]

RR Johnson

... Run the Cascades overnight...  all done with existing equipment that is now idling overnight. The same goes for the Midwest: overnight between Chicago and Detroit, Pontiac; between Chicago and St Louis; between St Louis and Kansas City...These are huge untapped markets!!...

Run overnight trains on 5 hour routes?  These are not untapped markets, these are irrational markets.

[blue streak 1]

oltmannd

It seems that Wick Moorman is focusing on getting Amtrak's house in order.  

Only when that is completed, Amtrak can focus on ways to grow that make economic sense.  That's probably a year or so off.  

 

WE need to really listen to Oltmannd.  As stated Moorman needs to make Amtrak better not bigger.  Actually we all know Amtrak's limitations to even become better.  Reliable and enough equipment are some items.   The December monthly report gives us some idea of what Moorman is trying to do.

 

Bear maintenance has produced 5 more Amfleet overhauls 1st quarter than planned which cars probably were welcome for Christmas. The financials show $1.2 M more spent  for those overhauls but Amtrak only plans to meet budget amounts by end of September. Report also shows that Bear waiting for cars to work on. It stated cars will come 2nd quarter and wreck repairs deferred to 2nd quarter.  6 Amfleet food service cars slated for conversion to coach but none done so far.

 

 No loco repair noted at Wilmington so probably the wrecked ACS-64s not scheduled for this FY ?  5 switchers are noted for overhaul.   3 NPCUs scheduled for overhaul this FY year and 4 at Beech which may be F-40s ?

 

Beech report did show 3 superliners and two surfliners down with all work in progress.   MPR showed $5M not spent yet .That may be result of  the ongoing problem of Beech not getting replacement parts in a timely manner.  It may be Beech procurement may need a shake up ?  V-1 sleepers had 2 WIP giving 23 for Christmas.  Guess that is how Meteor got its extra Christmas sleeepers  ?

 

Now Loco repair at Beech another matter.  5 shown as original FY year plan for overhaul but under budget of $6.0M.  MPR shows excess spend of $12M by end of year.  It may be there needs a longer lead time for those overhauls and MPR does not yet show revised schedule of numbers ?

 

Acquisitions showed budget of $53M but planned for ~ $59M.  We can only hope that means more V-2  deliveries than originally anticipated ?  Just $2.2M shown spent for 1st Quarter. Anyone remember how many V-2 bags delivered then ?  May we guesstimate how many V-2 diners and sleepers expeced by Sept 30th ?s

 

Reference MPR

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/620/1010/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-December-2016.pdf

pages A4.6 and A4.8

 

The above should enable better on time departures from train  originating terminals.  ( CHI take note ). As well fewer loco failures enroute ? Other points of getting OBS into more passenger friendly service will be harder.  Any one know if Mooreman has addressed the long station dwell problem ? If the above is sucessfully implemented then Amtrak can grow because it will give in the non quote words of a certain politician "" A world class RR system ""

 

Now the items Moorman cannot control yet is acquistion of additional rolling stock.  Only then can Amtrak be better on present routes by meeting demand for 90 - 95% of year.  The demand for more routes that follows may have congress rising to meet demand ?