Please contact your congressperson to stop this desecration of our temple
http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/breaking_ground/2016/03/amtrak-unleashes-plan-to-expand-cramped-union.html#i1
Have you been to Union Station in Washington? There's nothing classical to desecrate in the current concourse area. Me thinks anything they can do to improve the crowded conditions there is a good thing. Trying to board a train there is ridiculous with lines stretching halfway through the concourse for a NE Regional.
I agree the concourse is too narrow and hard to get through the crowds and honestly looks similar to the artists rendering today.
I think the Original Poster was thinking more about the Lobby part of Washington Union Station which like other Union Stations has a barrel vaulted ceiling and done in the Roman classical style.
It is hard to tell but it looks like the lobby remains intact. The concourse expands north with more natural lighting.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnPI agree the concourse is too narrow and hard to get through the crowds and honestly looks similar to the artists rendering today.
I am not sure why we keep getting OPs that don't take the time to follow up with actual source material, for example this Amtrak fact sheet on the Passenger Concourse Modernization Project:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwj73KvggvDLAhUFbiYKHScADDYQFggwMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.amtrak.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2FWAS2C-Concourse-Modernization-Factsheet_FINAL.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHoUavnmlOMi8JMiCZYk6ZrTE1O0g&cad=rja
(the URL betrays how I found it; it's clickable even though the color isn't there, some quirk of the new Forum programming, perhaps...) - This contains an illustration of what will be replaced by the 'new and improved' modernization. A very logical place to follow up for more details would be the architects involved (who are listed in the Amtrak sheet).
CJtrainguy Trying to board a train there is ridiculous with lines stretching halfway through the concourse for a NE Regional.
Trying to board a train there is ridiculous with lines stretching halfway through the concourse for a NE Regional.
The lines are a mess at D.C.'s Union Station. They are not much better at 30th Street, Philadelphia or Penn Station, New York.
Having business class passengers line-up at 30th Street like they were in the chow line at MCRD Paris Island made me wonder if my DI retired and got a job figuring out the boarding process for Amtrak's trains?
Amtrak could manage the lines better with assigned seating or at least by group boarding. Group boarding works pretty well for Southwest Airlines.
Even Megabus has figured out the assigned seating issue for passengers willing to pay a small surcharge for an designated seat.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Apparently I have really missed something for the past thirteen years when traveling out of Washington, for I have had the use of the first class lounge every departure but one since then; I have had no difficulty in boarding.
Johnny
Deggesty Apparently I have really missed something for the past thirteen years when traveling out of Washington, for I have had the use of the first class lounge every departure but one since then; I have had no difficulty in boarding.
The overwhelming majority of Amtrak's passengers don't travel first class.
On my last trip from Philadelphia to New York, which was business class on a NE regional train last year, everyone lined up at the top of the stairs. The line snaked around the stairwell.
Approximately 10 minutes before the train was due, we were released to go down to the platform. Where we had an opportunity to stand in line again until the train arrived!
Only a government run passenger railroad with little sense of customer service would lay this off on its customers and continue to get away with it.
The Amtrak experience is entirely different for first class and coach class passengers and that's a shame. I think the solution to the awful situation decribed by JPS1 is for Amtrak to do what works all over Europe: assign coach seats by number. No matter how much cost and effort this would take on the company's part initially, in the long run it would be productive in many ways, not least in customer satisfaction and repeat business.
It should be no surprise that Washington Union Station and Penn Station are already at or over capacity, since they were planned and built at a time when the population was a fraction of what it is now. The 160 million Americans of my high school years are now some 310 million or so. Who in 1905 could have built that kind of capacity into their stations?
Perhaps cities like these ought to build more Amtrak and commuter railroad stations; after all, in Europe every big city has several stations. Prohibitively expensive, you say? What is the long term cost of trying to use an inadequate early 20th century station in the later 21st century? Does China have just one big central station in their major cities?
America needs to think along the lines of Daniel H. Burnham, the architect of DC's lovely and impressive station, and
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency. Remember that our sons and our grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."
For a start, could we simply have a ticket with a seat number on it so we can know which car we're looking for and not have try to muscle our way on board?
I expect romance when I travel by train like something otta a Humprey Bogart Film-
http://www.cincinnativiews.net/images-3/Train%20Concourse%20full%20view.jpg
I tired of everything and everywhere looking alike you think we would have learned from the 1970s
http://www.cincinnativiews.net/images-3/Train%20Concourse-looking%20west.jpg
If in the pre-computer days, the railroads were able to assign cars and seats to coach passengers, why is Amtrak not doing so now? This was done even on the trains that ran over two or more railroads.
RMEI am not sure why we keep getting OPs that don't take the time to follow up with actual source material, for example this Amtrak fact sheet on the Passenger Concourse Modernization Project:
The internet is full of posters that refuse to do research. Thats why we have not really resolved a whole host of issues in this country that should be relatively simple to fix.
My favorite article this past week was on the TOW Missile defeating tanks in Syria (I am a former TOW gunner). The article was written by a GWOT Marine Infantryman that did his homework and reported it was the BGM71 TOW.......you have all sorts of idiots reporting the missile was useless as it only damaged the Russian tank. Including all sorts of over confident Russians boasting about their reactive tank Armor. Well the BGM71 TOW stopped being used by Active Army Units in the early 1980's. The TOW they use now is two generations later and is called the ITAS TOW. The fact that a early 1980's missile damaged a modern Russian tank that it no longer operated was a important fact lost on 90% of the readers of the article (hopefully Russian intelligence is better for our deterrence to work). You even had some saying the U.S. gave the missiles to the ME rebels.........also not possible since the missile is no longer in the U.S. Inventory.....obviously it came from another ME country like Saudi Arabia.
This is why I think we need to add a critical thinking or news media analysis course to our educational system as a requirement. Even when given enough facts, a large portion of Americans will outsource their thinking to an author or news commentator instead of arriving at their own conclusion after some thinking and digesting / research of the news article. I wonder what that GWOT Marine Infantryman is thinking when he reads the comments to his article.......has to be demoralized or at least rolling his eyes.
JPS1The overwhelming majority of Amtrak's passengers don't travel first class. On my last trip from Philadelphia to New York, which was business class on a NE regional train last year, everyone lined up at the top of the stairs. The line snaked around the stairwell.
Philadelphia is a another station that needs rework. I took a train out of there about three years ago to D.C. Just like you described, line up the stairs then everyone runs to the train or walks fast like scared chipmunks running to their holes..........it was ridiculous. If I wanted that experience I would fly to Spain for the running of the Bulls.
Deggesty
That is a good point. I have been on Amtrak trains from Florida, Tennessee and Wisconsin in the past 40 years . It is odd that there has never been assigned seating. It would make things a lot easier. By the way, All Aboard Florida plans to have assigned seats plus marked boarding points on the platforms (digital signs) for individual cars. I guess Amtrak really can't learn and improve in the modern age after all these years. It isn't just because of funding issues, it's lack of leadership. Why can't I take a train from Tampa to DC and know exactly where I will sit before I board?
In a word: Amtrak sucks. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. We need better. I hope AAF takes over passenger rail in Florida and brings us modern passenger rail service here.
In the late 1950's, I often came into WDC's Union Station from Connecticut to go to school and it seems to me that what is now the shopping/food court was the train concourse being very wide and having lots of room for passengers to sort themselves out as they headed to and from various tracks. While the US population is much bigger now, the percentage traveling by train was much larger than today and while today's most common WDC passenger is probably a commuter, back a few decades there were plenty of long haul passengers including many switching railroads for more destinations. Adding 20,000 sq. ft. is a symbolic improvement only: possibly adding another zero would make sense.
CMStPnPYou even had some saying the U.S. gave the missiles to the ME rebels.........also not possible since the missile is no longer in the U.S. Inventory.....obviously it came from another ME country like Saudi Arabia.
Obsolete (not in current inventory) US weapons are often given to other combatants by non-DOD US agencies.
I’m pretty familiar with Washington DC Union Station. As pointed out in one of the prior posts, the existing concourse area is nothing like the original concourse (except for the building shell). The interior is a jumble of inadequate waiting areas, shops and ticketing facilities all of which are modern. The original concourse area, in contrast was pretty much open. From the pictures, the WDC “modernization” plan appears designed to remove much of the existing jumble in favor of more open space and larger waiting areas, which would be more faithful to the original design of the building than what’s there now.
With respect to the suggestion that Amtrak use “assigned seating”, my question is what problem this would solve. As a practical matter, NE corridor regional trains are more like commuter trains than long distance intercity trains, with lots of people constantly getting on and off at intermediate stations. Throwing in assigned seating would simply increase station dwell times. If the goal is to reduce lines at major stations, there’s a much simpler solution that doesn’t require the complexities of seat assignments – boarding groups.
The airlines provide a good example of this. I fly pretty regularly (although not as regularly as I did before I retired). My experience is that Southwest Airlines, which does not use assigned seating, consistently boards aircraft much faster than airlines which use assigned seating. Southwest’s current procedure is to assign each passenger a number in 3 boarding groups (A1-60, B1-60 and so on), and the passengers line up one group at a time behind numbered pedestals. The system seems to work pretty well – most people stay seated until their group is called because there’s no advantage in getting into the boarding que first. The boarding numbers are generally assigned based on the order the boarding passes are obtained (Amtrak would have to use something else – perhaps ticket purchase time/date). More recently, Southwest has instituted options where, for an additional charge, a passenger can get a better boarding number (but not an assigned seat), an income opportunity which Amtrak could also use if it made use of a similar system. Another advantage to a system like this is that it would not have to be used at all stations or at all times
So historically, did passenger always have to wait in the station area (and not on the platforms)? My local amtrak stations (on the Keystone Line) always seemed simple: you get your ticket, and go down and wait on the platform. Then you get to 30th street, and all the people are lined all over the place while the platforms sit empty between trains. Never made much sense to me.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Another thing to remember is that at major stations, while several hundred people may be waiting to board, several hundred are getting off, too. Leaving the platform empty makes it easy to handle passengers who are disembarking. You can get them out of the way and then make the same platform available to the new group getting on. The train won't leave without you. Everyone is in too much of a hurry. Common sense has long been left behind.
pajrr Another thing to remember is that at major stations, while several hundred people may be waiting to board, several hundred are getting off, too. Leaving the platform empty makes it easy to handle passengers who are disembarking. You can get them out of the way and then make the same platform available to the new group getting on. The train won't leave without you. Everyone is in too much of a hurry. Common sense has long been left behind.
Yet transit/subways use their platforms for simultaneous deboarding and boarding every day multiple times a day with many more people.
It seems a lack of common sense to jam up station interiors with the cattle call lines.
Union Station and Ogilvie Center in Chicago are both very busy. Yet passengers can go to the platform for commuter trains before it arrives.In Germany, all stations permit/require passengers to go to the platform before the train's arrival. Since often there is only 2 minutes' dwell time, you need to line up on the platform where you coach will be or else you would miss the train. I really do not see any valid reason why we need cattle call lines.
Anybody ever ride Vancouver's Sea Bus. The cataraman Ferry that crosses Vancouver's harbor to North Vancouver. Arrives at the terminal, all doors (6) on one side open, and everybody exits, then the doors open on the other side and all the new passenger board. They seat 385 people plus standies. A very efficient operation. Crossing time is about 10 to 12 minutes and the turnaround time is about 3 minutes. They are scheduled for departure every 15 minutes. At each end are bus (diesel and trolley) terminals for multiple routes that fill these ferrys. If you are a transit fan, this is an operation to see.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBus
schlimm Union Station and Ogilvie Center in Chicago are both very busy. Yet passengers can go to the platform for commuter trains before it arrives.In Germany, all stations permit/require passengers to go to the platform before the train's arrival. Since often there is only 2 minutes' dwell time, you need to line up on the platform where you coach will be or else you would miss the train. I really do not see any valid reason why we need cattle call lines.
My thoughts exactly.
What we need is something more classical to match the rest of the station with Terra-Cotta Columns and Greek Statues of chizled half naked Greek gods and goddeses... Since Amtrak is Goverment does there archetecture have to be as blaa and brutalist as other tasteless Gov buildings (Like the FBI headquarters). How long wil the Sani-White Color scene of the proposed concorse last before it turns into a pudding yellow?
I am hopeing for something more classical. Now I have been downstairs the to food court and see the track numbers and blocked off holes for the platforms but how did the passengers flow upstairs was there a ramp of some sort?
Dave Klepper: DB's ICE-3 trains in Germany can carry up to 441 passengers. Sometimes two are combined. Yet they seem to manage to stop, unload and load, all in 2-3 minutes. Platforms are often packed with passengers awaiting the arrival. They line up at the denoted location on the platform opposite the car their seats are in. Disembarking passengers step down and off, and then the embarking ones board. Thus, there is frequently an exchange of several hundred people. Having all doors open automatically or by touching a green pushbutton helps. There is no rational reason why a similar system could not work here.
Southwest, the nations largest air doesn't assign seats either. Its cheaper, and certain more efficient than the traditional air lines. If you want to have more control of where you sit on SWA, you up grade ( ie pay more ) no one in the air line industry can aurgue that SWA doesn't have the shortest dwell time and some if the best utilization numbers for its fleet.
Travel has changed its all about making it quick and easy. Amtrak could offer some reserved seating as an up grade. But perhaps its a north east thing. Its how they load long distance, corridor and commuter trains. If your not comfortable with that, Upgrade to first class or business class. If not you get the SWA travel experience. Which works well for them.
traveling has changed. Its no longer a grand journey which took days at a time. People dont dress up to catch s flight. Many folks want to spend as little time as possible at the station or air port. Stations like air ports are no longer the great cathedral's they use to be. Just beginning and end points, not a destination upon themselves.
Just saying, my take on life in 2016.
CandOforprogress2 Please contact your congressperson to stop this desecration of our temple http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/breaking_ground/2016/03/amtrak-unleashes-plan-to-expand-cramped-union.html#i1
The plan for expansion of the "Claytor Concourse" isn't all that bad: http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/WAS2C%20Concourse%20Modernization%20Factsheet_FINAL.pdf
As mentioned by others the waiting area gets rather crowded these days; especially when you are denied used of the lounge f.k.a. Metropolitan because a former female Secretary of State happens to be riding that day but I won't mention any names.
When one looks back at all the open waiting space that was lost the whole thing becomes ironic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Train_concourse,_new_Pennsylvania_Station_4a23931v.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USO_Lounge_Union_Station_Washington_D.C._ppc.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:21_interior_waiting_room_union_station_030030pu.tif
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:29._apparently_ca._1915_INTERIOR,_WAITING_ROOM_030038pv.jpg
But if you think the new expansion is a desecration, just wait until you see the what they have in mind for the future: http://www.wnyc.org/story/286851-pics-heres-what-a-revamped-d-c-union-station-would-look-like/
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
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