I don't want to take sides in the above argument at this time, except to say the if the USA has a transportation policy, it is inconsistant as applied the various modes, varies depending who happens to be in the White House and who in the Senate and Congress. Despite all that, things still seem to work better overall in the USA than any other country on this planet, remembering that civilization is not just getting from here to there (and enjoying marvelous scenery) but includes food, housing, clothing, healthcare, longetivity, pleasent environments, and a general feeling of freedom, and other important matters as well. My only point is that Amtrak, whatever mistakes they have made and may still be making, did the right thing to establish the Acela service and to charge a premium fare for it. And that their doing so benefits the public at large, not just those using the service. And it benefits the riders of Bolt Bus as well. And I don't have any indignation, rightous or otherwise, about Bolt Bus or its riders, just to state that they benefit from Acela's high fares and the money spent by the people who use that service and those (often not the riders themselves) that provide that money, and the money of the Amtrak subsidy.
There is a rail alternative to Bolt Bus in part of the corridor. One can ride cheaply and reasonably fast from New York to Philadelphia, Wilmington, and Newark DE, by using a combination of NJT and SEPTA (or use NJT and its River Line and PATCO from Camden to Philadelphia). I would join Sam in saying that Acela should be only one end of the service and a real rail equivalent to Bolt Bus all the way from Boston to Washington at the other end, specifically a twice daily all-stops local that operates as a regular commuter train where tracks are shared with the six different commuter authorities (Boston's T, Shore Line East, Metro North, NJT, SEPTA, MARC) and with the matching low fares. College students might be the bulk of the low-fare through riders. It is a needed service. The NEC does not now benefit one who wishes to go from Aberdeen MD to Guilford, CT or Canton, MA, and it should. They are helping to pay for it. And it would be easy for Amtrak to do it. And it just might be as cost effective as Acela if done right.
Dave, you are espousing my concept of regional rail. Run through trains with certain express stops to change to "locals" on coordinated and complimentary schedules. Almost like the NYC subway come to think of it, but we don't have to talk in terms of across the platform connections every five or ten minutes but across the platform connections just the same. Increase equipment useage, utilize labor (come on now, this is a proposal, a concept, not a working plan) better and economically, just make it a service that people can and will use, help the environment as well as the auto/truck congestion on the highways.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6, I agree with much of what you have been saying about the need for an integrated transportation system, but you said something that I see as a big stumbling block: "buses are creepy." In talking with others, I frequently find a disdain for buses. Maybe they are seen as the last resort for the "lower class," those who can't afford cars; or people just don't want to ride with a bunch of strangers, I don't know. In the last 50 years or so we have been increasingly afraid of being too close to each other. Many, as soon as they can afford it, buy into their dream: a couple of acres outside of town. Well, enough psychology and sociology, but this living pattern makes a shift to more public transportation more difficult.
Back to buses. Rail is expensive and can't be justified without very high traffic density. Before even starting a new rail service, a good justification for it would be an existing heavily patronized bus service along the route in consideration, and after it's built it requires a good network of bus service to feed it. How do you make buses more attractive? I don't know, but as much as I love trains, I'm also a believer in good overall public transportation and the value of different modes supporting each other.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Yeah, I kinda overdid the bus bit in trying to be quick...truth is the bus vehicle is very comfortable and modern. But the feedback is that neighborhoods where long distance bus terminals are are not very nice neighborhoods and a turn off to many would be riders. Another problem with bus travel, and this is from bus drivers, is that more people get sick riding buses than any other form of transportation!! At least that's what they told me. Probably if only because one is unprepared for it unlike airplanes and knowing how one reacts in a car it may be true.
oltmannd daveklepper: Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out! NJT montly pass on NEC ~20 cents per mile Acela NYP-WAS ~90 cents per mile Amtrak Regional NYP-WAS ~50 cents per mile
daveklepper: Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out!
Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out!
NJT montly pass on NEC ~20 cents per mile
Acela NYP-WAS ~90 cents per mile
Amtrak Regional NYP-WAS ~50 cents per mile
Could rail fares be bus-competitive? Assuming Acela at least breaks even at $0.90/mile with 1/4 the capacity of a multi-level suburban train, the suburban train must come close to breaking even at $0.20/mile. For Amtrak, the economy coach fare for a high-capacity economy train of multi-level cars still would be around $45 New York - Washington.
You can't compare inter city service with commuter service because the two work on different business and operating models. Equipment is different, schedules are different, distances are different, frequencies are different and varied. Of course the customer may be the same but is purchasing a different service when he/she is going to and from work than when traveling to another city for business or for pleasure. Can intercity be used for commuting or commuter be used for intercity? Yes and yes. But the comfort, speed, and time differences are often great, too. For instance, an upcoming Ride With Me Henry trip this month includes NYC to Poughkeepsie. In one direction we are using Amtrak @$23 in 1 hour 23 minutes the other we are using MNRR @ $15.75 in 1 hour and 47 minutes. Aside leaving from NYP and returning via GCT, the ride and the service is quite different and our fellow passengers on each train will be different, too. Sure, we're doing if for railfanning and we are not typical of the customers normally using either service, but those along with us will be able to experience and understand the differences for themselves.
henry6 You can't compare inter city service with commuter service because the two work on different business and operating models. Equipment is different, schedules are different, distances are different, frequencies are different and varied. Of course the customer may be the same but is purchasing a different service when he/she is going to and from work than when traveling to another city for business or for pleasure. Can intercity be used for commuting or commuter be used for intercity? Yes and yes. But the comfort, speed, and time differences are often great, too. For instance, an upcoming Ride With Me Henry trip this month includes NYC to Poughkeepsie. In one direction we are using Amtrak @$23 in 1 hour 23 minutes the other we are using MNRR @ $15.75 in 1 hour and 47 minutes. Aside leaving from NYP and returning via GCT, the ride and the service is quite different and our fellow passengers on each train will be different, too. Sure, we're doing if for railfanning and we are not typical of the customers normally using either service, but those along with us will be able to experience and understand the differences for themselves.
Metra for one has express trains on some routes that significantly reduce travel time, just as for your Poughkeepsie ATK-MN example. Granted, ATK seats are bigger too, and this affects train capacity. As for business models that have a public benefit beyond the fare revenue, it makes more sense to maximize ridership and relevance to the public (which is a political component) if it doesn't affect the bottom line negatively. On of my biggest gripes about the Hiawatha service is the high 1-way fare maximizing revenue per passenger and getting few passengers to justify a train while giving away a peak demand service with low monthly fares. The Amtrak monthly pass is less than just the downtown Chicago parking cost, let alone gas & toll out of pocket costs. That parking cost is not the case in Milwaukee and explains in part the lower ridership.
Note that I am simply suggesting (as is Henry) a way to use existing manpower and physical resources more effiently. Off peak commuter trains can use extra business, and by connecting them and filling in the very short gaps, at least twice a day, some more cars will be taken off the highways because people will again find it convenient to go from Towsand Md to Branford, CT by train, where now three different tickets and two train changes are needed. This does not mean that trains are necessarily competitive with buses for this type of bubsiness NE Corridor. I am reaally mostly addressing Sam'scomplaint by wishing to balance Amrtak's desire to please the most affluent (and serve everybody's interest in doing so) by pleasing the least affluent as well.
I don't believe there is anything equivalent to Bolt Bus between NY and Philly, but there probably is between NY and Washington. The market for a Bolt Bus between NY and Philly is well taken care of by the connecting services of NJT and SEPTA, who make available each other's schedules at NEC stations and at least at one time (currently?) did provide through ticketing, and for a very short time through equpment. No reason a commuter service cannot also carry long distance riders who want to travel more economically. On a trip from my White Plains office I had business in Glencoe and Rocikford, IL. I used Metro North to NYC, the subway to Penn Station, Lake Shore to Chicago,. Metra to both Glencoe and Harvard, where my Rockford client met me.... So the through service would serve three groups of passengers, those traveling between major cities wanting a bargain and willing to put up with longer travel times, people traveling between towns that are bypasssed by the regional and Acela trains, and the off-peak local riders that are riding now.
daveklepper I don't believe there is anything equivalent to Bolt Bus between NY and Philly, but there probably is between NY and Washington. The market for a Bolt Bus between NY and Philly is well taken care of by the connecting services of NJT and SEPTA, who make available each other's schedules at NEC stations and at least at one time (currently?) did provide through ticketing, and for a very short time through equpment. No reason a commuter service cannot also carry long distance riders who want to travel more economically. On a trip from my White Plains office I had business in Glencoe and Rocikford, IL. I used Metro North to NYC, the subway to Penn Station, Lake Shore to Chicago,. Metra to both Glencoe and Harvard, where my Rockford client met me.... So the through service would serve three groups of passengers, those traveling between major cities wanting a bargain and willing to put up with longer travel times, people traveling between towns that are bypasssed by the regional and Acela trains, and the off-peak local riders that are riding now.
Amtrak and transit operators have compartmentalized rail services that railroads once blended to fit the need. Until 1963(?) CNW ran an overnight mail train out of Chicago on the Harvard Line that departed at 11pm and made all intermediate stops. Some Chicago-Milwaukee trains made a greater number of suburban stops than the 400's, including Cudahy and South Milwaukee in Wisconsin.
Amtrak got rid of the services and local, metropolitan transit agencies or authorities took over commuter operations, thus the disconnections. Part of the reason for and the fun of my Ride With Me Henry trips it to utilize the connections and services which are not advertised and often not recognizable at quick glimpses of timetables. Any place on NJT to Trenton, SEPTA to downtown Philadelphia or anyplace else on SEPTA is easy...as is across the platform (alright, up the stairs, across the mezzanine, down the corridor) to the LIRR at NY Penn then to anyplace on LI is just as easy. On 5/16 we will come to NYP from Hackettstown, NJ then Amtrak to Poughkeepsie, NY, MNRR to Grand Central, subway to NYP or PATH to Hoboken, then NJT back to H'twn. LInks in NJ include Hudson-Bergan LIght Rail, Newark City Subway, The River LIne, PATCO in Philadelphia and Camden, bus when and where if needed. There is no interline ticketing, no "connection" schedules published. But, to me, that's the fun of Ride With Me Henry.
But I must add that MNRR-CONNDOT and NJT have been using NJT trainsets and through schedules/tickets from New Haven to Secaucus Jct. for NY Giant football games, and LIRR does through ticketing for same, on a trial basis. It is a step in the right direction for regionalizing the rail network...Would anybody (besides Ride With Me Henry) actually ride Providence to Wilmington? Probably not, but the utilization of a trainset instead of sets which might otherwise be deadheaded, the service of one seat/one ticket ride through 30th St, or Newark or NYP or New Haven just might be both a marketable and an efficient transportation operation. I am sure Chicago's METRA having taken over so many different railroad operations might be able to find through line ticketing and connections which would be an attractive service, too.
NJT does have an inexpensive and unique ticketing of NJT interline connections. Ticket cost is based on the longest line-ride segment. But they don't advertise or promote interline ticketing as a money savings way to travel. Say, Hackettstown on the Morristown/Montclaire-Boonton Line to High Bridge, NJ on the Raritan Valley line: $15.75, the same as Hackettstown to Hoboken instead of plus the trip to High Bridge. And with the Sr. discount I can do it for $6.75! But if it weren't for my doing the Ride With Me Henry excercises I would never have found that out!
henry6 ...Probably not, but the utilization of a trainset instead of sets which might otherwise be deadheaded, the service of one seat/one ticket ride through 30th St, or Newark or NYP or New Haven just might be both a marketable and an efficient transportation operation. I am sure Chicago's METRA having taken over so many different railroad operations might be able to find through line ticketing and connections which would be an attractive service, too. ....
...Probably not, but the utilization of a trainset instead of sets which might otherwise be deadheaded, the service of one seat/one ticket ride through 30th St, or Newark or NYP or New Haven just might be both a marketable and an efficient transportation operation. I am sure Chicago's METRA having taken over so many different railroad operations might be able to find through line ticketing and connections which would be an attractive service, too.
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Some through services for Chicago were considered in 1973 but never pursued. These involved running Aurora (BN) and Joliet (RI) trains through through Union Station to Fox Lake (MDN) and Elgin (MDW) respectively. This followed ridership analyzes and forecasting for Cleveland and Chicago (L-DR & H-DR), the latter done by the IDOT Office of Research & Development instead of the Chicago Area Transportation Study. Chicago had five separate suburban terminals between 1971 and about 1976 until the NW Orland Park train was taken over by Metra and shifted from the Polk Street Annex (Dearborn Station) to Union Station.
Probably could be thought of more today as there is less variety, more standardization of equipment, more solidarity among the crews working for one railroad, etc.
Uh, Sam, who paid for the highway the Bolt Bus travels on? Your trip to the grocery store is subsidized by the taxpayer. There is no transportation system in this country, save rail freight that is not subsidized in some way. I run commuter passenger trains for UP under the Metra aegis. Quite frankly, the passenger operations are the only things operating on our tracks south of Lake Bluff on the Kenosha Sub, and only a wayfreight east of Seeger on the Harvard Sub. Those aren't going to pay the freight for the passenger operations, yet none of our riders would probably think the cost is too high to keep running the scoots. We parallel the Edens and Kennedy for a few miles, always packed at rush hour. If we were to cease our passenger operations, can you imagine what several thousand extra automobiles would do to that traffic? I agree that money should be spent wisely and watched very carefully, especially in the light of the Phil Pagano affair and other scandals. But that said, we need more than just air and highway modes for our future.
Of course your regular commuter who has a monthly pays far less for his ride than your one-way Metro North ticket/
From about 1970 through 1995 I was a regular commuter on Metro North, reverse commuting from NYC to White Plains N. Station. I thought the service good and the fares reasonable. On weekends | often served as a volunteer at Branford, and used Metro North to and from New Haven, usually only having to pay a step-up on my commuter ticket, which was good on the New Haven line as far as Harrison. But on occasion, after a long day at Branford, I would spring for the extra cash and buy the far more expensive one-way Mew Haven - NY coach ticket to enjoy regular Amfleet coach comfort and the availability of a snack-bar. Did not have the kind of income to do this very often, however.
One day I did do it, and on the platform, watched the GG-1 backing down on the train, with an old friend leaning out of cab window as engineer. Got a cab ride to Penn Station as a result. Did give the conductor my ticket at Penn Station. The day happened to be the 75th Anniversary of the amalgamation the formed the New Haven Railroad, but by then it was Conrail or PC and operated for Amtrak. I put that in my book along with rideing the very last eastbound UP City of LA.
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