henry6 What is simpler than stopping where we are, analyze what we got, determine where we need to go, and decide how we are going to get there. Continuing with conflicting philosophies, economic plans, and political agendas and try to stamp out a single future is not working just building rhetoric and confusion!
What is simpler than stopping where we are, analyze what we got, determine where we need to go, and decide how we are going to get there. Continuing with conflicting philosophies, economic plans, and political agendas and try to stamp out a single future is not working just building rhetoric and confusion!
Do you think that analysing what we got, determining where we need to go, and deciding how we are going get there can be done without encountering any conflicting philosophies?
We debate the same old pro/con arguments over and over again year after year after year…
Meanwhile in China:
Have fun with your trains
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henry6 Your are right, Schlim...these other countries you refer to long ago rationalized their political and economic philosophies when it came to transportation and therefore do not hold rhetorical converstions like this one...they don't have to. And Oldman, what I am saying is that we've got to stop in our tracks right now and rationalize what we need and want asking the many questions I have suggested including your on emissions and imported oil. We have not hammered it out at all, but remain locked in rhtoric anchored in political and economic philosophies forged by our past. In political parlance: it is time for a change, not in rhetoric but in action.
Your are right, Schlim...these other countries you refer to long ago rationalized their political and economic philosophies when it came to transportation and therefore do not hold rhetorical converstions like this one...they don't have to.
And Oldman, what I am saying is that we've got to stop in our tracks right now and rationalize what we need and want asking the many questions I have suggested including your on emissions and imported oil. We have not hammered it out at all, but remain locked in rhtoric anchored in political and economic philosophies forged by our past. In political parlance: it is time for a change, not in rhetoric but in action.
It might be time for all that, but I don't think it's a reasonable goal.
How about we settle for something simpler?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6 The questions above are interesting and important...from both posts. It shows we don't understand what a transportation system is, why it is needed, how it is used, where economic benefits can be attributed to it, what environmental benefits are gained (or lost), in short we don't understand what it is and how it fits into the fabric of our economic and social life. It is not just to drive cars, buses and trucks, fly airplanes, or run trains. It is both a chicken and an egg. Without it we are lost, dead. With a rationalized, economical, environmental, and well run system we will be a strong nation. Transportation system I said, not train or highway or air or waterway...all modes working in unison. We have a entrapenurial philosophy that private enterprise is the answer, the only answer. Yet we are lagging behind other countries in the integration of transportation systems...and HSR is only one small aspect of the overall picture. So, we in this country have to come to terms with the concepts of transportation rather than fight the concepts of modes and poilitical philosophies.
The questions above are interesting and important...from both posts. It shows we don't understand what a transportation system is, why it is needed, how it is used, where economic benefits can be attributed to it, what environmental benefits are gained (or lost), in short we don't understand what it is and how it fits into the fabric of our economic and social life. It is not just to drive cars, buses and trucks, fly airplanes, or run trains. It is both a chicken and an egg. Without it we are lost, dead. With a rationalized, economical, environmental, and well run system we will be a strong nation. Transportation system I said, not train or highway or air or waterway...all modes working in unison. We have a entrapenurial philosophy that private enterprise is the answer, the only answer. Yet we are lagging behind other countries in the integration of transportation systems...and HSR is only one small aspect of the overall picture. So, we in this country have to come to terms with the concepts of transportation rather than fight the concepts of modes and poilitical philosophies.
As such, the government will encourage and get directly involved in its development to varying degrees for various specific reasons. Where we get all tangle up is in the details.
Do you try to level the playing field centered around just the direct, easy to monetize costs and benefits or do you try to achieve broader national goals (like reducing CO2 or imported oil)? Do you do it by fiat or by tax policy or by liaise-fair? Do you you try to link users to costs through fees and taxes or do you just fund it out of general revenue? Do you partner with private companies, states and other non-federal agencies or do it all at the Federal level?
We've protected shipping with a Navy paid by general revenue. We've built canals with state money. We've built roads every which way. Direct Federal investment, partnerships with states, bonds through state and regional authorities, funded them with fuel tax, funded them with income tax, funded them with property tax. We've given private railroad companies eminent domain, land grants, low cost loans and direct grants at the state and federal level.
And, it's all been hammered out, all these years, through politics. And, along the way, we have offended nearly everyone involved with perceived unfairness. So, what else is new?
Please name one country that has the "integrated transportation system" you keep preaching. Most airlines are private enterprise and most of those that were government-controlled have been privatized for years. In many countries, the rail system (passenger and freight) is run by a partially private corporation.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Isn't it odd that we never have this national conversation about the cost of the newest best fighter plane even though the only enemy we seem to have is still riding camels and buying tickets on our own airliners?
Which actually benefits Americans more; a new squadron of even better fighter planes, or a good transportation system?
As I have said before, it's not about the cost it's about priorities.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The private enterprise model is a red herring, someone ANYONE show me ANYWHERE in the world where a decent national or regional rail system (HST or otherwise) isnt publicly funded to one degree or the other? It doesnt exist, and where they have tried to go back (Britain) its been a disaster for service.
We HAD a privately run passenger rail system, it failed because the private railroads couldnt afford it, so we got Amtrak, and now the current Congress has made it clear it wants to 100% de-fund Amtrak despite the fact that Amtrak has always had far more public support than nay-sayers, remember the last time they tried to cut funding? They got so much public responce they actually increased funding. If that funding ever did get cut that means everything from Alcela to the Pacific Surfliner could go away and that would result is massive chaos for commuters. I doubt the Senate would ever allow that to happen but it clearly shows a serious SERIOUS lack of vision or long term planning in our leadership of our nations transportation future. Trains work, thats been proved time and time again from all around the world, its just here that no one gets it.
ndbprr So nobody can come up with any benefits from expending billions for HST. If I were the decision maker here are some questions you need to answer for me to advance your cause:1. How does this increase productivity?2. How many jobs are created and what is the average wage?3. Is it profitable?4. What is the actual cost for other countries?5. SHow me a marketing study that say's the public wants this this
So nobody can come up with any benefits from expending billions for HST. If I were the decision maker here are some questions you need to answer for me to advance your cause:1. How does this increase productivity?2. How many jobs are created and what is the average wage?3. Is it profitable?4. What is the actual cost for other countries?5. SHow me a marketing study that say's the public wants this this
1. Why does this matter?
2. Job creation is a red herring. Best is if you could make it all happen and run all by itself.
3. Define "profitable". Same standard as other transportation modes? Benefit/cost ratio >=1?
4. Is this a sanity test or a benchmark or what?
5. A marketing study would show demand, not a desire for service to exist. Very different animals. Which do you want? An opinion poll or a ridership study? Every rail project gets a ridership study and a benefit cost analysis. No highway project is ever subjected to this rigor.
First of all, you should show an Acela for the US. It does exist, right?
And, over $2B was invested doing the NH to Boston electrification, right? And, none of that money came from Amtrak fares, ticket taxes, rail fuel taxes. None of it.
And, if you read Paul's posts and check his numbers, you'd know that Amtrak's overall subsidy is WAY WAY WAY out of line compared to air and highway.
And, if you read the rest of Paul's posts, you'd know there is little hope for economy of scale. (Vision Report)
So, if you want to be fair and scale Amtrak funding to match air and highway, you'd be in favor of cutting it to 10 or 20% of the current level.
We need Amtrak to be better.
We need sane, targeted investment in passenger rail corridors.
We need better economics on the LD trains if we want them to hang around.
We better get busy pushing for these things or we will have nothing.
HST World Round-up if the Republicant’s have their way
Japan:
China:
Britain:
France;
Germany:
Spain:
Russia:
Taiwan:
Italy:
America:
Yep, that’s the USA they want to give us…drive, take a plane, or walk, no busses left. What I don’t understand is that they constantly whine about Amtrak funding and try every year to kill it, yet don’t blink when they give BILLIONS to airline companies that are still running in the red every bit as bad as Amtrak, maybe worse. Why don’t they cut that funding, let 7 or 8 airlines go belly up (free market in action ya know) and let the chips fall where they will? (could you imaging the resulting chaos?) Meanwhile our bridges are crumbling, and our transit infrastructure is slowly atropheing into 3rd world decrepidness...I dunno, maybe they just enjoy having TSA fist them and work them like a Muppet? Bunch of Hypocrites in my eyes.
If you build it, they will ride.
Phoebe Vet http://www.sehsr.org/ Construction of the southeast high speed (110 mph) rail corridor is well under way. Charlotte to Raleigh to Richmond to DC. Most of the papers have been shuffled, construction is not far away. Of course, all that could grind to a halt if the new politicians manage to revoke the already approved but not yet distributed funding. Many millions have already been spent of the route planning and environmental studies. Charlotte is in the early stages of building a city center Gateway Station that will serve Amtrak, Lynx Red Line, a Sprinter bus to the airport, Greyhound, and CATS buses all in one facility. It will be within walking distance of the Carolina Panthers stadium and the Charlotte Bobcats arena. Greensboro already has a combination facilty, and Raleigh has plans but I don't know the details.
http://www.sehsr.org/
Construction of the southeast high speed (110 mph) rail corridor is well under way. Charlotte to Raleigh to Richmond to DC. Most of the papers have been shuffled, construction is not far away.
Of course, all that could grind to a halt if the new politicians manage to revoke the already approved but not yet distributed funding. Many millions have already been spent of the route planning and environmental studies.
Charlotte is in the early stages of building a city center Gateway Station that will serve Amtrak, Lynx Red Line, a Sprinter bus to the airport, Greyhound, and CATS buses all in one facility. It will be within walking distance of the Carolina Panthers stadium and the Charlotte Bobcats arena.
Greensboro already has a combination facilty, and Raleigh has plans but I don't know the details.
Also, unfortunately, there has been no actual construction money allocated for the Petersburg - Raleigh section. They got skunked in both rounds of Federal Money bingo. In fact, it looks like VA will be doing the Norfolk - Petersburg service first. The money for construction is in hand, but even then, it'll take 3 years before the first train is run. Yeesh!
The Carolina projects, like other state-supported projects, seem to be on the right path. Ideally, having mass urban transit available in cities on a corridor is best. But that takes time and money. In the case of cities that are very "sprawled," station parking and car rentals can make the train viable, at least in the meantime.
Phoebe Vet, it sounds like North Carolina is doing it right. Provide a useful service, and as patronage dictates, upgrade to incrementally higher speeds.
Sometimes I think HSR is being used as a decoy. Back in the sixties it was "Oh, no, rail is obsolete. What we need is a monorail." A couple of decades later it was "Oh, no, rail is obsolete. We need to go to maglev." Now it's "HSR is the way to go." The trouble is, each of these, while glamorous-sounding, is very expensive. The first two are also impractical when it comes to things like switching, and I wonder how maglev would handle a beer can thrown on the track. The Europeans and Japanese have shown that HSR is practical, but they didn't build them out of the blue, where there was nothing. They had high population densities, many of whom were already using public transportation, and the HSR was an upgrade of the service. But city buses and regular trains don't seem very glamorous compared to the expensive sleek shiny bullets.
Lately, I've held off commenting on the many passenger-related topics because we seem to have formed a small choir preaching to each other. Henry6 keeps saying "provide a service, don't just run trains" and I agree. I usually think of it as "integrated and incremental": provide a local transit system connected to regional and inter-city buses and trains, and upgrade as needed all the way to HSR.
Anyway, it sounds like North Carolina is doing it right.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
oltmannd jclass: Phoebe Vet: My opinion on why we need trains: Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies. Dave: I'm a little puzzled by your post. Now, by interstate, the distance can be traveled in 2 1/2hrs with almost innumerable places to start from or end at inbetween. I would think that maintaining that road route would be first priority as far as transportation is concerned. That there is air service between the two cities by major private carriers seems to me to be more of an accommodation on the part of the airlines. Short flights involve the highest costs of flying with little counterbalancing savings that long distance provides. Train service is being addressed from the State level, which to me seems the wise choice at this time, and as you point out is working. To look to Washington for provision would involve inefficient use of government. The drive from Charlotte to Raleigh isn't always a lot of fun. Charlotte has some pretty thick rush hour traffic. Not "Atlanta thick" or "NEC thick", but still, not much fun to deal with. I-85 has some rotten "old interstate" sections in it north to Greensboro and I-40/I-85 is a highly traveled, multi-lane urban style freeway from Greensboro to Raleigh. Not much fun, either. The two biggest problems with the NC trains is that they don't have much in the way of good transit connectivity in most of the locations they serve. Greensboro/Wintson Salem/Highpoint sprawl has two stops on the train, Greensboro and Highpoint, but the whole area is a very low density sprawl. Not too bad if you are originating your trip there - you can drive to the station. But terrible if that's your destination for business. The other problem is poor connectivity to the NEC. It consists of the Crescent, that has a good short route, but runs in the middle of the night, and the Carolinian, which takes a long, round about way of getting there. Perhaps, someday, VA and NC can get the Petersburg to Raleigh direct route rebuilt and Charlotte trains can all be NEC service extensions. Yes, hardly anyone will ride Boston to Charlotte, but there would be quite a bit of Baltimore to Raleigh, Richmond to Greensboro and the like...
jclass: Phoebe Vet: My opinion on why we need trains: Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies. Dave: I'm a little puzzled by your post. Now, by interstate, the distance can be traveled in 2 1/2hrs with almost innumerable places to start from or end at inbetween. I would think that maintaining that road route would be first priority as far as transportation is concerned. That there is air service between the two cities by major private carriers seems to me to be more of an accommodation on the part of the airlines. Short flights involve the highest costs of flying with little counterbalancing savings that long distance provides. Train service is being addressed from the State level, which to me seems the wise choice at this time, and as you point out is working. To look to Washington for provision would involve inefficient use of government.
Phoebe Vet: My opinion on why we need trains: Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies.
My opinion on why we need trains:
Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags.
You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction
BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary.
Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro.
If there was a non stop train it would take much less time.
Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies.
Dave: I'm a little puzzled by your post. Now, by interstate, the distance can be traveled in 2 1/2hrs with almost innumerable places to start from or end at inbetween. I would think that maintaining that road route would be first priority as far as transportation is concerned. That there is air service between the two cities by major private carriers seems to me to be more of an accommodation on the part of the airlines. Short flights involve the highest costs of flying with little counterbalancing savings that long distance provides. Train service is being addressed from the State level, which to me seems the wise choice at this time, and as you point out is working. To look to Washington for provision would involve inefficient use of government.
The two biggest problems with the NC trains is that they don't have much in the way of good transit connectivity in most of the locations they serve. Greensboro/Wintson Salem/Highpoint sprawl has two stops on the train, Greensboro and Highpoint, but the whole area is a very low density sprawl. Not too bad if you are originating your trip there - you can drive to the station. But terrible if that's your destination for business.
The other problem is poor connectivity to the NEC. It consists of the Crescent, that has a good short route, but runs in the middle of the night, and the Carolinian, which takes a long, round about way of getting there.
Perhaps, someday, VA and NC can get the Petersburg to Raleigh direct route rebuilt and Charlotte trains can all be NEC service extensions. Yes, hardly anyone will ride Boston to Charlotte, but there would be quite a bit of Baltimore to Raleigh, Richmond to Greensboro and the like...
Underscores my mantra of having to provide service and not just run trains!
jclass Phoebe Vet: My opinion on why we need trains: Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies. Dave: I'm a little puzzled by your post. Now, by interstate, the distance can be traveled in 2 1/2hrs with almost innumerable places to start from or end at inbetween. I would think that maintaining that road route would be first priority as far as transportation is concerned. That there is air service between the two cities by major private carriers seems to me to be more of an accommodation on the part of the airlines. Short flights involve the highest costs of flying with little counterbalancing savings that long distance provides. Train service is being addressed from the State level, which to me seems the wise choice at this time, and as you point out is working. To look to Washington for provision would involve inefficient use of government.
jclass:
No sarcasm intended, but I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying there is no place for mass transit if you can get there by automobile? One of the goals of mass transit is to reduce auto traffic.
The Piedmont and Carolinian are funded by the state, but they are operated by Amtrak.
Many of the passengers don't have a car available to them for the trip. There are several colleges along the route. Many just don't want to spend 2.5 hours on the interstate. I see people watching movies on their computers. Business people can work on the train during the trip. There is an electrical outlet by every seat and laptops are open at many seats. I even see meetings going on at the tables in the café car.
Phoebe Vet My opinion on why we need trains: Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies.
BUT... The train also stops at and serves the people in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Greensboro, Burlington, Durham, and Cary. Those people do not have the option to fly to either city, and the flight above does not stop there. A person who needs to travel from Kannapolis to Greensboro has to drive to Charlotte, fly to Raleigh then drive to Greensboro. If there was a non stop train it would take much less time. Because they are not as noisy, the NIMBYs don't make you build the train stations out in the boonies.
Phoebe Vet: Thank you for the report. Very encouraging. If the Obama version of HSR is dead, N.C.'s experience contributes to a powerful argument against defunding of Amtrak, especially when Amtrak is helped out by the states.
https://apps.dot.state.nc.us/pio/releases/details.aspx?r=4139
Yes it's well received, and yes I ride it.
It is exactly what I am advocating. Fast, frequent, and on time.
It is currently being upgraded from 79 mph to 90 mph service. NC has been putting millions into upgrades and crossing improvements for several years.
Very few people would take a train from Charlotte to Boston, but a lot of people would take the train among the communities along the way.
Phoebe Vet Here in Charlotte you can fly round trip to Raleigh, the state capital. The round trip cost is $401 unless you have bags to take with you. Taxes, airport fees, and checked baggage fees are not included in that price. The trip takes about 50 minutes each way. Add at least an hour at departure to get through the bizarre security play, and another half hour at destination to claim your bags. You can also take the train. The round trip cost is $52, bags travel free. There are no extra fees. The trip takes 3.5 hours each way. Add 15 minutes at each end if you check bags. Up to two can be carried on, eliminating that time. If you are not checking bags you can arrive 10 minutes before departure. The train runs 3 times a day in each direction
Phoebe Vet, you are well-served, indeed ... this is a flashback to the 1960s. Here, if I want to ride Amtrak, I get to drive 100 miles to catch a single schedule (east or west) in either direction.
Yours seems to be the kind of service you and others -- rightfully, I think -- have been advocating as at least minimally useful to the public. (Multiple departures, reasonable timekeeping, etc.) So -- how is it doing? Does it seem to be well-supported? Do you use it much yourself?
I am not trying to be "smart." In fact, I would like to think that, in some parts of the country outside the NEC -- Chicago-St. Louis, for instance -- passenger rail really does have something useful to do.
Dave: What I can't get over was the idea of making a business trip this Tuesday, $52 vs $939, i.e., a fare 18X the train fare, which is only a little slower, door to door. It is a great example of the corridor services Amtrak (or somebody less burdened with an outdated mission) can develop that will have a huge ridership and thus cover its OE. 3 1/2 hrs,160 miles, 8 stops. With somewhat higher top speeds and less dwell time at stops en route, the time could be cut to 2 to 2 1/2 hours. That is the kind of service in the right locations we should be putting any dollars into; not wasting any more money on labor-intensive long distance cruise ships [sorry, I meant trains] or overly ambitious true HSR projects, for now.
I copied those fares off the two websites. They were both for Wednesday Feb 16 returning the 17th. I chose two weeks out in the middle of the week specifically because airfare is cheaper in the middle of the week than it is Mon and Fri. The train fare doesn't change. Who wants to plan their travel at the convenience of the carrier? I think that the way airfare is calculated is unfair to people who need to travel on short notice and on their own schedule.
Besides that, my real point was that the train serves all the intermediate communities and the airplane does not.
You could get a cheaper fare from USAir if you went through DC or Philadelphia, but then it would take longer than the train, would involve a plane change, and would still cost more than the train.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of the airfare of $401 + tax. As we all know, there are many fares, depending on factors like non-stop vs. 1-2 stops, how far in advance and which day of the week you fly. For example, if I were to fly on the first weekend of March, nonstop RT fare, including taxes and fees, is only $178. But, If I flew next Tuesday, Feb. 1, returning Feb. 2, the fare would be $939!! Clearly, for business travelers (who have to watch costs these days), the train would make sense. But if you are just doing a weekend and can plan well in advance, flying could be an option.
ndbprr so somebody explain reasons (not opinion) why we need HSR and what benefit we gain because I can't see any reason for it especially when run by the federal government.
so somebody explain reasons (not opinion) why we need HSR and what benefit we gain because I can't see any reason for it especially when run by the federal government.
If you look in the latest Trains Magazine and the article about the Swiss tunnel project and how it was undertaken by government and why; 200+mph passenger trains and 99mph freight!. That is the question, the problem, the place we are, here in America. Many projects need tending to. But the investment community wants quick and high returns not long term solutions. So what do we do about HSR or anything else.
But direct to HSR: your question is excellent. Before we answer that we must answer what is HSR. It is a neat catch all term that invokes romantic fancies of literally flying through the country side without know really how fast you are going. 80? 90?100?200? How many miles per hour is high speed. How many miles per hour is practical? And where? I believe there are needs and uses for trains of all speeds in our country. But we must start thinking outside the gas tank and the airport and fancy names like HSR to get to the real answers and the future. The question after that is if the investment community is unwilling to put up the money should the government do it? Next Civil War is close at hand?
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