Just what we need, a third party to repackage back to us what we could purchase directly from Europe ourselves:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/China-to-bid-on-US-highspeed-apf-4135137999.html?x=0
Well, China has lent us so much money, China has backed our debt. China is doing a large part of our manufacaturing in production. So now they can take us over without firing a shot! And they're coming by train!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
We should at least try to build them ourselves. Buy American, folks...
But of course, Europe is a less unsavory option than China.
If possible, we should "Buy American." Unfortunately, a lot of what is needed for HSR (including ROW engineering, electrification as well as rolling stock) isn't made by American companies. So it is hardly surprising that "outsiders" are stepping into the void. Perhaps the best we can hope for is products made here by subsidiaries of foreign-owned corporations that employ a lot of US workers (eg., Siemens US has 60,000 employees here).
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
IIRC, correctly General electric has stated that they want to find a Chinese partner as they seek to enter the electrified HSR market. I do wonder if this would mean that GE would be a party to "Pirating" European technology..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndDevil's advocate: Let's say we start bidding out HSR and we can get twice as much from the Chinese as we can from anybody else. You for it or against it? ..and why?
Oh gee, I think I am against it. Were we to purchase components for HSR from anyone but Americans, that would be a great shame regarding our inability to compete -- it would be pathetic. And the Chinese are unsavory as are the Europeans although less unsavory than the Chinese. Can't tell if people from China or Europe indeed taste bad (are unsavory) as the only women I have ever kissed are all Americans, but I guess that makes me an unrepentant jingoist as none of the women I ever dated were immigrants, from China, Europe, Canada, or any other such place. I dated a woman from Puerto Rico, who tried to teach jingoistic me some Spanish, but Puerto Rico is really America.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Considering how much we are indebted to China now it is difficult to want them to give us more. Our investor community has to learn to do with less: work for long term return, work with lower rate, work with sense of responsibility to the United States as a whole and not to their individual personal gain to the greatest extend possible. They will of course come back on me that it is union labor that causes off shore manufacturing and supply when it has been their greater greed. The U.S. can do it, we just have to wait for the ripening of the fruits of our labors instead of taking down payments and letting the future generations suffer for it.
henry6Considering how much we are indebted to China now it is difficult to want them to give us more. Our investor community has to learn to do with less: work for long term return, work with lower rate, work with sense of responsibility to the United States as a whole and not to their individual personal gain to the greatest extend possible.
What does this have to do with our investor community? HSR is not going to built by investors. It will be built by government borrowing money from the future taxpayers.
henry6The U.S. can do it, we just have to wait for the ripening of the fruits of our labors instead of taking down payments and letting the future generations suffer for it.
Didn’t we just take an $8 billion dollar down payment, leaving the future generations to suffer for it?
Bucyrus, you know nothing has been done re: HSR so it is entirely possible that somebody along the way will have it or part of it done by private industry with government insured loans if not government loans period. Look at today's gaspipeline story in Trains newswire.
And that $8 billion downpayment is exactly why I fear China, it's power and influence on us now and for the future and fear making that indebtedness...financial and othewise...larger.
Buy Chinese? Are we not forgetting the multiplier effect of any construction or equipment purchases. That is part of what 'buy USA" is about.
blue streak 1Buy Chinese? Are we not forgetting the multiplier effect of any construction or equipment purchases. That is part of what 'buy USA" is about.
Are these mutually exclusive positions? Is there some measurable optimum combination?
US bidders???? Are there any??? I cant think of a single US based company that has any kind of proven track record producing HST trains or technology. Bombadier is Canadian based. Every successfull HST project around the world is based on proven, mostly French, German, or Japanese technologies, now the Chinese are trying to horn in on this market while all we do here is continue argueing over pointless political bickering while our infrastructure collapses.
Have fun with your trains
Not everybody believes in the so-called multiplier effect. A lot of people say that it is like scooping water out of the deep end of the pool and dumping it the shallow end to make that end deeper. If the government had a large pool of saved, unspent revenue money, it could indeed stimulate the economy with it. But, as it is, the government has no money. So when it spends money to make a multiplier effect, it must borrow the money from other countries or mortgage the future taxpayers to get it. The money the government spends to create a multiplier effect is pure debt, so there is nothing to multiply.
Think about it. If governments could actually create wealth by borrowing and spending money, there would be no poverty in the world. There would be no want. It would be like creating prosperity by magic.
Generally when governments spend money to get a multiplier effect, the only thing that gets multiplied is the size of government.
BucyrusNot everybody believes in the so-called multiplier effect.
Not everybody believes in a round earth or landing on the moon, either!
oltmanndSo, you vote HSR is mostly about jobs rather than transportation? I think that is really the two possible reasons to do it. One is jobs. You plow money into any endeavor and someone has to do it - including the multiplier effect. You could pay people to do anything at all, and get this. The other is to provide a good or service. Whoever can do it for the least, does the most good for all of us. We get to have it for the least cost. That "unspent" money can go for some other stuff for us all to have.
No:: It is about both as all infrastructure projects should be. I take umbrage with make-work jobs that do not contribute to the overall long term welfare of our country such as many studys.
Jobs that are important right now will not provide as much multiplier effect because so many of the persons getting these jobs will have to pay off debt and will only help the banks. But still there will be persons purchasing items that are past useable life and needs replacing. that means more jobs building replacement inventory. One criticism of the multiplier effect I've had is this replacing of debt. The opposite may have fueled our race to the present economic problems esp banks.
henry6 Bucyrus, you know nothing has been done re: HSR so it is entirely possible that somebody along the way will have it or part of it done by private industry with government insured loans if not government loans period. Look at today's gaspipeline story in Trains newswire. And that $8 billion downpayment is exactly why I fear China, it's power and influence on us now and for the future and fear making that indebtedness...financial and othewise...larger.
I agree with your fear of China holding too much U.S. debt, but I also fear just the prospect of too much U.S. debt period, no matter who holds it.
So far, I have not heard any mention of the consideration of our national HSR being funded by private investment. You mentioned government-backed loans to private developers, but that still has all the attributes of a publicly financed project. I just don’t think that the majority of proposed HSR has the money-making potential to attract private investment. It is not being promoted in a way that suggests it will make more money than it costs. It is being promoted as simply a public good.
While we have talked about my objection to unfair distribution of HSR costs to those who will not use it, that is the least of my concerns. So just to be clear, here are the four reasons I oppose national HSR in order from least concern to highest concern.
1) The unfairness of the personal disparity between users and the payers.
2) The overall disparity between total cost of HSR and its total usefulness.
3) The detrimental economic effect of the deficit spending needed to build and operate HSR
4) The inefficiency of building and operating HSR as publicly funded, government-run endeavor.
If HSR is built with private investment, as you suggest, then my four abovementioned concerns evaporate.
Bucyrus henry6 Bucyrus, you know nothing has been done re: HSR so it is entirely possible that somebody along the way will have it or part of it done by private industry with government insured loans if not government loans period. Look at today's gaspipeline story in Trains newswire. And that $8 billion downpayment is exactly why I fear China, it's power and influence on us now and for the future and fear making that indebtedness...financial and othewise...larger. I agree with your fear of China holding too much U.S. debt, but I also fear just the prospect of too much U.S. debt period, no matter who holds it. So far, I have not heard any mention of the consideration of our national HSR being funded by private investment. You mentioned government-backed loans to private developers, but that still has all the attributes of a publicly financed project. I just don’t think that the majority of proposed HSR has the money-making potential to attract private investment. It is not being promoted in a way that suggests it will make more money than it costs. It is being promoted as simply a public good. While we have talked about my objection to unfair distribution of HSR costs to those who will not use it, that is the least of my concerns. So just to be clear, here are the four reasons I oppose national HSR in order from least concern to highest concern. 1) The unfairness of the personal disparity between users and the payers. 2) The overall disparity between total cost of HSR and its total usefulness. 3) The detrimental economic effect of the deficit spending needed to build and operate HSR 4) The inefficiency of building and operating HSR as publicly funded, government-run endeavor. If HSR is built with private investment, as you suggest, then my four abovementioned concerns evaporate.
But compare it to the aforementioned ethanol pipeline: private enterprise looking for 80% gurarentee from the US government.
From the forum comments, you would think that the deal would not only have China supplying ballast, the caps on top of the catenary suppports and everything in between. And the labor.
HSR is not rocket surgery. We have the expertise necessary to design, build maintain and operate. Want a surprise? Much of that expertise can be found at Amtrak. What we don't have right now is an American company with a modern design for passenger cars on a shelf and an existing plant to manufacture the vehicles. Such a company is not going to come into existance without some reasonable level of risk that a market will exist long enough to be a profitable venture. Of course there are a number of passenger car builders that are headquartered in foreign countries, but if we insist they will build or buy the parts and assemble the cars in the U.S.
There is one thing foreign companies do not have, and that is the expertise to work through our permitting process. That is the biggest reason that I do not expect a foreign based company to ever do a grounds up equipment and all turn-key HSR service in the U.S.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
schlimm BucyrusNot everybody believes in the so-called multiplier effect. Not everybody believes in a round earth or landing on the moon, either!
While it is anecdotal, more members of my family receive their income from public employment- teachers, librarian, soldier, psychologist, rocket scientist-than from the private sector. Don't know of any that burn their paychecks in a fire in the fireplace.
China also is proposing a Eurasian HSR link through India, Iran, and the Balkans in exchange for natural resources. Maybe it's the same deal China would offer a cash-strapped US that would be hard to turn down. We can't compete with China's money for world oil supplies; and may be obliged to go by bike, bus, and train instead of auto. It was okay for businesses to sell out; why not the government? China certainly is more functional than the US at this point. Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?
I must say that I agree with the comments above that are not in favor of buying railroad equipment from China. I believe we should make it here.
To answer the question about whether I would prefer to make it here even if we could get twice as much for the same price from China, I say, "Yes." The hidden price we pay when we buy something "cheaper" from overseas is the American jobs lost because we are not buying from Americans.
Band Aid products now come from Brazil. I buy Nexcare, made in U.S.A. And I gladly pay more because I know there's an American job on the other end of the transaction.
The reason China has money and that we owe them a lot is that we keep buying stuff from them while we are putting Americans out of work.
When we pay an American worker a dollar it can stay here, unless the worker spends it overseas. When we pay someone overseas a dollar, it's gone. Not one penny goes to your local gas station, your grocer, your hair dresser, your doctor, etc.
Railroads made America great, and America made great railroads. We need to restore those practices, starting now.
American investors want to much return on their money, too fast. American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible. Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.
henry6American investors want to much return on their money, too fast.
I also think you are wrong. There is an awful lot of money sitting if FDIC insured passbook accounts - safe but earning very little. There are an awful lot of folks still paying on their underwater mortgages that they'd be better off walking away from. If the almighty $$ was all that was driving them, you wouldn't see this behavior.
henry6 American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible.
People make these value judgments all the time. What we have the right to, is open markets.
henry6Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.
The way this is supposed to work is, if everyone does what they do best, then production is maximized. if I buy trains from China, then China has money to by corn from the US. And, I have some money left over to buy some cars from Germany, so Germany can buy some beef from the US. If I buy my trains in the US, then China isn't buying any corn and Germany isn't buying any beef and the US doesn't get any German cars.
HarveyK400 Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?
cordonWhen we pay an American worker a dollar it can stay here, unless the worker spends it overseas. When we pay someone overseas a dollar, it's gone. Not one penny goes to your local gas station, your grocer, your hair dresser, your doctor, etc.
If you live in GA and buy a car made in Ohio, are you putting a Georgian out of work? If you live in Cleveland OH and buy a toy made in Hudson OH, are you taking a job away from a Clevelander?
jeatonWhat we don't have right now is an American company with a modern design for passenger cars on a shelf and an existing plant to manufacture the vehicles. Such a company is not going to come into existance without some reasonable level of risk that a market will exist long enough to be a profitable venture. Of course there are a number of passenger car builders that are headquartered in foreign countries, but if we insist they will build or buy the parts and assemble the cars in the U.S.
So, we might want to develop some passenger car design and build expertise as a strategic resource - which it seems Amtrak's purchase plans are all about - however goofy they seem otherwise.
oltmanndhenry6American investors want to much return on their money, too fast. Who gets to decide how much is the right amount? I also think you are wrong. There is an awful lot of money sitting if FDIC insured passbook accounts - safe but earning very little. There are an awful lot of folks still paying on their underwater mortgages that they'd be better off walking away from. If the almighty $$ was all that was driving them, you wouldn't see this behavior. henry6 American consumers believe in the God given right to have everything and at as cheap a price as possible.Generally, yes. This is rational behavior. If I can buy a 2x4 at Home Depot for $3 but Lowes has is for $2, I'm buying it at Lowes (unless they are all warped - so a lesser value) People make these value judgments all the time. What we have the right to, is open markets. henry6Too often cheap isn't as cheap as they think.Caveat Emptor. Then the purchaser suffers the natural consequences of his behavior. The way this is supposed to work is, if everyone does what they do best, then production is maximized. if I buy trains from China, then China has money to by corn from the US. And, I have some money left over to buy some cars from Germany, so Germany can buy some beef from the US. If I buy my trains in the US, then China isn't buying any corn and Germany isn't buying any beef and the US doesn't get any German cars.
That all is a very niave belief that it all works that way. What is a fair return? Others elsewhere seem to be more patient in the long run and will take less than what our investors believe is fair in the short run; our investors what quick huge returns as soon as possible with no long term committment to quality of product or service nor to longevity of investment. And that money in FDIC accounts means nothing to this argument: the money is being used by investment bankers to shore up the return on investment, the fact that the government insures it means nothing to the investment community except to take advantage of the money and the money's depositors.
People will go to Lowes to pay $2.95 on a Home Depot item at $3.00! The only time the American buyer becomes concerned with quality or service is after the act of buying. And as far as the buy from China who then buys corn from US to buy car from Germany, is a great theory which doen't always work in practice; we've allowed it to go too far without covering our internal nut. The fact is that American investors in search of quick and high returns will go for off shore manufacturing. And they can do it because the American buyer is willing to buy so cheap. Then we all stand around pointing fingers at the other guy for not having jobs and income in this country. There is a good arguement for interdependence but it also has to be tempered with responsible management.
oltmanndHarveyK400 Now who's going to bury whom, Ronald Reagan?I think you have your politicians mixed up. Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev said "We will bury you!". Ronald Reagan said, "...tear down this wall!"
I think you missed the sarcastic reversal..
henry6People will go to Lowes to pay $2.95 on a Home Depot item at $3.00! The only time the American buyer becomes concerned with quality or service is after the act of buying. And as far as the buy from China who then buys corn from US to buy car from Germany, is a great theory which doen't always work in practice; we've allowed it to go too far without covering our internal nut. The fact is that American investors in search of quick and high returns will go for off shore manufacturing. And they can do it because the American buyer is willing to buy so cheap. Then we all stand around pointing fingers at the other guy for not having jobs and income in this country. There is a good arguement for interdependence but it also has to be tempered with responsible management.
Most of this does sound a little like we have become TOO conscious of our billfold. At the same time grabbing for the bigger home and ELOC and all that. Wonderful combination. Then you throw this into the mix and the kvetching begins. One other thing---find the $2.75 piece at Lowes----but in order to get it then have to drive for 20 minutes to "save" .25 cents----but how much $$$ got drained out'n the gas tank in the process?
The thing I also get a kick out of as well is the issue of our local knowledge base. We've exported a lot of that out and/or closed a lot of the apprenticeships down without thinking about what happens then. Where did all of that go? Into saving the dollar bill. Short term thinking rules over any kind of longer term ideas.
I'm not saying that saving $$$$ should be thrown out but that we may have to re-introduce SOME kind of idea based in/around the concept of "investment" IN the country. I like the idea that some kind of a market for my products exist here.
Can you imagine a market that is about 30% "poorer" than it is now? Never mind taxes and all that. Just 30-40% poorer overall. A mainly pastoral economy? Some argue that for a sustainable economic base. Is this a picture some would like to see? Yet, I hear a fair bit of that. That debt load weighs awfully heavy in these pictures I've seen -----
What does all this have to do with HSR? A fair bit. Who is going to be able to travel on it for one thing. Is it affordable for a company to invest in it if you have a very small customer base? What would the price point on a HSR round trip ticket be if it was between, SF and Los Angeles, for example?
aargh---all kinds of things to peruse----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.