henry6 It was, I believe, an ICC regulation that a passenger train could not leave a given station before its scheduled time. The idea was that a public timetable was a written contract between the railroad and the public where the railroad would provide that service at that time. Unless otherwise noted; like in commuter zones during peak hours where it is good railroading to keep the trains moveing providing passsengers with a quick ride usually homebound. It is based on the idea that there are few if any passengers boarding at these stations in the given direction at that time of day.
It was, I believe, an ICC regulation that a passenger train could not leave a given station before its scheduled time. The idea was that a public timetable was a written contract between the railroad and the public where the railroad would provide that service at that time. Unless otherwise noted; like in commuter zones during peak hours where it is good railroading to keep the trains moveing providing passsengers with a quick ride usually homebound. It is based on the idea that there are few if any passengers boarding at these stations in the given direction at that time of day.
The ICC may have had something to say about it at some point, but for all practical purposes, scheduled times have their roots in timetable and train order operation. All companies' rule books specified that a regular train must not leave a station (read: a place mentioned in the timetable by name) before the time whown in the timetable. This was so that opposing inferior trains would have a time to run against, clearing the superior train by the time shown. There were a thousand variances to the general statement, so let's not get off into that territory, at least for now.
While scheduled times were, in point of fact, for the use of employees, and were shown in the employee timetable, a railroad's public timetables followed the same general script, but for a different reason: the train should not depart until the time shown so passengers had a benchmark or departure time against which boarding became problematic if not impossible, as the train's markers rolled off into the sunset.
In any event, Amtrak carries on the tradition set so many years ago, and it is the OP's responsiblity to either ask if they do not understand, or take the time to read the section of the timetable clearly marked "How To Use This Timetable"., rather than trash the railroad and turn the conversation into something political, an issue rightfully taken up in the February 2010 issue of Trains.
DeggestyConsider that the Silver Service trains, the Cardinal and the Crescent do not take passengers at Alexandria or any stop north of there, and the Carolinian does not take passengers at Washington or at any stop north of there
It is a bit more complicated now than old timetables.
South bounds - Carolinian drops passenger every stop except Newark. Star, Cresent, Palmetto drop passengers at ALX. Cresent drops at ALX
Northbounds - Carolinian receive pass at ALX
Newport news all stops both north and southbound.
I have been on these trains when they would violate these rules whenever any Regional train was very late up to available seats to/from WAS. In fact a few times a regional train was tacked onto front or rear of one of these trains.
Conversely, except for the Carolinian, which only receives at Newark and does let passengers off at the other stops, the above named trains, when operating in the reverse direction do not carry passengers to these points. Southbound, the trains that run through Washington, except for the Crescent, have no arrival time shown.
Johnny
schlimm Sam1Texas Eagle who are traveling from points north of San Antonio (SA) to points west of the Alamo City and vice versa. South and west bound they arrive in SA. at 9:55 p.m., but they do not depart until 5:40 a.m. East and north bound they arrive in SA at 9:30 p.m. and depart at 7:00 a.m. What's the rationale for 9+ hour layovers anyway?
Sam1Texas Eagle who are traveling from points north of San Antonio (SA) to points west of the Alamo City and vice versa. South and west bound they arrive in SA. at 9:55 p.m., but they do not depart until 5:40 a.m. East and north bound they arrive in SA at 9:30 p.m. and depart at 7:00 a.m.
What's the rationale for 9+ hour layovers anyway?
The Texas Eagle is not really a through train. This may be part of the answer. Only two cars go through from Chicago to LAX and vice versa. They are taken off the Eagle at SA and coupled to the Sunset Limited or vice versa.
The arrival and departure times of the Eagle in SA are probably geared to the fact that most of the people who are still on the train after it leaves Austin will detrain at SA and most of the people traveling up the line from SA begin their journey in SA. It had a daily average of 134 boarding or detraining passengers in 2009. Frequently, I have been on the through sleeper when the occupancy rate was less than 25 per cent.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It appears that Amtrak does have truth in dealing with the NEC. Checking last Thursday and Friday almost all were on time PHL - NYP both ways and the few that were late made up some time. Best Acela time was 1:04 and Regional was 1:16 for trains that departed either treminal late.
The Eastern Air Lines shuttle in the mid 1960s when they went to turbo props and could get 1:00 (vs 1:30 pistons) from LGA airport to DCA and Bos had a quantum jump in riders.
When Amtrak can get NYP - PHL to 1:00 and NYP - WAS in 2:00 ( will take yrs longer ) then that 1 hour they advertise may attract many more passengers to both Acela and Regionals ( 1:15 timing).
Laying over is not new to Amtrak....passenger trains often had such padding if you will. Mostly it was for servicing the train, changing engines, changing out cars, changing crews, etc. as has been stated. The DL&W had a 20 to 30 minute stop at Scranton on several trains ostensibly for those reasons. However, one of the real reasons unstated, but whispered about, especially on the westbound runs when often there was no engine change, was simply that the Board of Managers consisted of NYC people. So in deference to them and the mighty 20th Century Ltd., the DL&W could not better the time between NYC and Buffalo! Don't know how true it was, but was often told to me that way.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
The worst delay that I can think of afflicts those passengers on the Texas Eagle who are traveling from points north of San Antonio (SA) to points west of the Alamo City and vice versa. South and west bound they arrive in SA. at 9:55 p.m., but they do not depart until 5:40 a.m. East and north bound they arrive in SA at 9:30 p.m. and depart at 7:00 a.m.
There is nothing sneaky about the layovers. They are clearly stated in the timetable. However, on two recent trips on the Eagle, several fellow passengers expressed shock when they learned how long they would be lying over in the Alamo City. Apparently they had not read the timetable.
The long layovers in SA have at least two positive consequences. If the trains are on-time, which has largely been the case for the past year or so, the layovers give the through passengers plenty of time to visit some of the watering holes along the famed SA River Walk or just the walk for teetotalers. And for those passengers in the through sleeping car who do not sleep well whilst the train is moving, they can count on little movement during the night whilst laying over in SA and, therefore, hopefully have a more restful night than would be true if the train was moving.
Nevertheless, I hope the Eagle replaces the Sunset Limited west of SA, as has been discussed in a previous posting, and the dwell time in SA is reduced to a reasonable time.
henry6It was, I believe, an ICC regulation that a passenger train could not leave a given station before its scheduled time
I cannot speak directly on the above. However in the days of airline regulation by the CAB airplanes could not block out early due to CAB and postal regulations. Now days all mail for a given flight has to be at aircraft so many minutes early. I have on more than one occasion left gate as many as 10 minutes early if all passengers on board. Also some flights are no longer mail flights these days as much goes on all cargo flights that may leave as much as an hour early. ie got your load? -- Go!
So, what you are telling us is that you do not know how to read a timetable. Amtrak, and any other carrier's timetable shows departure times at stations from the point where the letters Dp appear, and departure times apply at all stations (as evidenced by the yellow arrow) until the reader finds the letters Ar for arriving time. After that, there may be Dp again, indicating the departure time from the station shown and for all others, etc., etc. No. 8 departed at 1143? Wow....in early and out on time, how about that? The 21 minute dwell is so that the train does not depart early, a policy and operating rule in effect since the Stone Ages of railroading. Truth in timetabling ensures that the train will be there for passengers, right up to departure time. The schedule pad is in there to accomodate our friends at the host railroad, who from time to time, lose their minds and forget how to run a passenger train, or for weather delays, or any number of other operational issues.
And that nasty old No. 7 departed on time as well? Someone ought to have their hand slapped.
Sorry bud, but the traveling public at large is at odds with you on at least two counts, both clearly researched and documented by DOT and Amtrak:
1. The want their trains to run on time if at all possible
2. They are largely non smokers.
Seems like Amtrak is doing is best to meet those two requirements. And it sounds like this was more of a complaint to be lodged against the anti smoking crowd.
BNSFwatcherI'd like you to cite some proof that smoking is "bad for your health". Bugwash, methinks. "Second hand smoke"? Another "crock-of'-s***"".
So just to disprove all that, I'd encourage you to conduct an experiment with n=1. Smoke 10 packs of camels or whatever each day for three years and check back with us.
I am 67 and haven't had a cig since 1991...I started in 1957! And there is a lot to say against smoking including first and second hand smoke dangers. I find that I can shovel snow, walk many miles, and all kinds of work and play that I couldn't do when I was smoking. I cannot condone smoking and I heartily agree with all the health warning and anti smoking rules being enacted and enforced. But someone above insinuated that smoking stops have to be made by Amtrak to accomodate smokers and that he would like to see smoking cars or rooms on trains. None of this can happen in my experience with my cessation of smoking and its affects on me and those around me. Not opinion: fact.
And the cost of keeping a train clean or a given "smoking area" policed is costly and unjustified given today's knowledge and financial constraints. Oh, wait, why not have each smoker scrub down the car or room or go around and pick up the area wherever he/she smoked! Nah, didn't think that sounded too acceptable either.
Wow! Youse be WAY older than I am, unless you started smoking at 5 y-o-a! I'd like you to cite some proof that smoking is "bad for your health". Bugwash, methinks. "Second hand smoke"? Another "crock-of'-s***"". I don't believe any (Amtrak) trains are scheduled to accomodate smokers. They have their 'dwell times' to accomodate the lazy (HR/EO) employees they are forced to hire. We are lucky, and don't have many of those employees in Montana. An occasional... sorry, got to stop at that.
Hays
OK. I smoked for damned near 40 years and have been off cigs for almost 20. I don't care what smokers think or how the feel about the habit: it is bad for your health and everyone else's around. I wouldn't have lasted this long if I hadn't quit, I feel good, I urge all who do smoke to quit and those who don't smoke to not start.
But worst or all is scheduling trains to accomodate smokers! I wouldn't support a train or train company which would do this.
I have sat on #48 west of ALB, listening to my scanner, for over 30 minutes while the Amtrak 'troops' squabbled about what to do with the train. I hope this intra-mural warfare is gone! The solution might be a second train ("The New England States"?), running on a schedule to make meets with the "Vermonter" at Springfield. No more split/joint at ALB. This would be great, especially if "The Vermonter" ever reaches Montréal again. Fat chance, I'm afraid, with the Border and Customs loons out of control on both sides. They might even shut down the "Adirondack"!
Okay. Require everyone to strip naked before entering the smoking compartment. Air-lock doors will be installed. Require smokers to shower before leaving, with special attention given to hair.
Reinstate the draft. Very few, who have been in the military, will discard their cigarette butts improperly. Provide a squad of police (increase employment!) to ticket the litterers, be they "Draft Dodgers" or COs or whatever.
Every problem has a solution. Non-smokers can ride their bikes. Sharing the cost? Got any idea what the tax on a pack of cigarettes is? I'll stop before I get into "Designer Water".
BNSFwatcher I think Amtrak would be praised if they adopted a "Truth in Timetabling" policy. Yar, they would take some hits, especially with weather-related delays, but they are supposed to be big kids. I will cite some examples from the "Empire Builder" schedules. #8 (EB) arrives in Shelby, MT at 1122 (not advertised). It departs at 1143, a 21-minute dwell for a 5-minute crew change, as scheduled for #7, baggage handling included).
I think Amtrak would be praised if they adopted a "Truth in Timetabling" policy. Yar, they would take some hits, especially with weather-related delays, but they are supposed to be big kids. I will cite some examples from the "Empire Builder" schedules. #8 (EB) arrives in Shelby, MT at 1122 (not advertised). It departs at 1143, a 21-minute dwell for a 5-minute crew change, as scheduled for #7, baggage handling included).
The main way that BNSF is compensated for their operating the Empire Builder is running the train on time, and not just from endpoint to endpoint. BNSF receives incentive payments if the train is on time for each of five segments: Portland-Spokane, Seattle-Spokane, Spokane-Shelby, Shelby-Minot, and Minot-St. Anthony (St. Paul). In each case, there is padding at the end of these segments, that allows the train to make up time that it might have lost in that segment.
People don't ride long distance trains for their speed. I would guess that people would rather know when the train is going to show up, than wait for a delayed train. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing the Empire Builder schedule cut an hour or so. The westbound train can be up to 3 hours late at Minot and still arrive in Seattle on time. If the train's running time was cut only about an hour, it could, for instance, have a guaranteed connection to 510 at Everett for Vancouver, BC, which would be a dramatic improvement over a bus ride from Seattle. It would also improve station times at Whitefish and Spokane.
Amazingly, however, the Empire Builder has had its schedule lengthened less than the other long distance Amtrak trains over the years.
Mark Meyer
BNSFwatcher Bringing back the horrible, filthy smoking sections, downstairs in a coach, would satisfy us smokers. The technology is available to keep the fumes from bothering other passengers, if Amtrak really cared. Not "PC", I guess! Hays
Bringing back the horrible, filthy smoking sections, downstairs in a coach, would satisfy us smokers. The technology is available to keep the fumes from bothering other passengers, if Amtrak really cared. Not "PC", I guess! Hays
Please let's not do this. Smoking sections on any public transportation discriminates against people who choose not to smoke. Smokers don't see it this way, but when Amtrak had smoking areas in coaches downstairs, this took away from revenue space that could be sold, thus reducing the amount of revenue the train could produce and in theory increasing the cost for everyone. Another cost of smoking sections is that they need to be cleaned more often and more thoroughly than non-smoking areas. More cleaning costs more money, and that cost is passed on to smokers and non-smokers alike. There is no technology in existence that can keep smoke from bothering non-smoking passengers. It's true, because when you come out of the smoking area and sit next to me, you still smell of it! It's in your clothing and it really never goes away. Most smokers are oblivious to what an imposition upon others this is. Amtrak probably doesn't designate smoking stops because it is cognizant that this discriminates against non-smokers by forcing a delay to accommodate the uncontrolled drug habit of other people. But Amtrak conductors do make such announcements on board the train. Next time you're on board (whether you smoke or not), step out and take a look at all the cigarette butts all over the platform and in the ballast. I bet 100 percent of this littering was done by smokers. Periodically, this needs to be cleaned up, yet ANOTHER cost passed on to everyeone, smoker or not.
When smokers step up to the plate and agree to pay their share for cost of their habit, then they should have some consideration. But I haven't seen any do that...yet.
BNSFwatcher BNSF has a state-of-the-art re-fueling facility (4-position) at Havre, MT. It is located at the east end of the platform. The WB "Empire Builder" stops there to re-fuel, then pulls into the depot afterwards to do "passenger business". Dwells 25+ minutes, then heads west. It usually arrives in Shelby 30-35 minutes early, sometimes more, and departs at 1722. That is not "truth in timetabling". The fuel truck is NOT used to re-fuel the "Empire Builder". I suspect it is used for the yard engines, but dunno, fur sure. The train is re-fueled at Minot by truck(s) while it is parked at the depot. Minot is a crew change point and it takes on dining car supplies, ice, etc.. It is, also, the first "smoke break" after the overnight WB trip and the last one EB for quite a ways.
BNSF has a state-of-the-art re-fueling facility (4-position) at Havre, MT. It is located at the east end of the platform. The WB "Empire Builder" stops there to re-fuel, then pulls into the depot afterwards to do "passenger business". Dwells 25+ minutes, then heads west. It usually arrives in Shelby 30-35 minutes early, sometimes more, and departs at 1722. That is not "truth in timetabling". The fuel truck is NOT used to re-fuel the "Empire Builder". I suspect it is used for the yard engines, but dunno, fur sure. The train is re-fueled at Minot by truck(s) while it is parked at the depot. Minot is a crew change point and it takes on dining car supplies, ice, etc.. It is, also, the first "smoke break" after the overnight WB trip and the last one EB for quite a ways.
The fuel trucks at Havre are used to fuel through trains. The "state-of-the-art" fueling facility at Havre is no such thing. It's pretty much only good for eastward trains (except the westbound Empire Builder). Many westbound trains are fueled with the fuel trucks you see. This takes extra time and manpower (that BNSF would undoubtedly charge Amtrak for). So it's much faster and cheaper for Amtrak to stop the westbound Empire Builder at the east fuelers before arriving at the station.
You state that after fueling, the westbound Empire Builder pulls into the station at Havre and "Dwells 25+ minutes." This has never happened and never will. The 25-minute dwell is meant to cover the fueling. The westbound Empire Builder is scheduled to make the trip from Malta (the stop prior to Havre) to Havre in 74 minutes for the 89 miles. That's over a 72 MPH average. The last several miles approaching the station at Havre (due to yard operation) are not at the maximum 79 MPH (some is 20 MPH), so the 74 minutes is pretty much the optimum running time from Malta to Havre (and that's if there are no delays, like meeting the eastbound Empire Builder). So, when one considers that the timetable arrival time in Havre of 239 PM at the east fuelers is just about the best the train can do, and it takes 8-10 minutes to fuel, that really only leaves about 15 minutes dwell time, which is not unreasonable for an about 6 1/2 hour trip from Minot, its last point where people can get off and stretch their legs.
The "Empire Builder", and the "Late Shore Limited" are different animals. They are, aktch'ully, two-trains-in-one. #7 & 8 serve CHI & SEA, #27 & 28 serve PDX & CHI. They combine/split at SPK. The SEA sleepers are, usually, 9 or 10 cars from the PDX sleeper. When the train is late, the dwell time at SBY is five minutes, which includes a crew change. The "Late Shore Limited" is a different horse. The WB Boston Section is scheduled in ALB at 1735. Departure, after it is combined with #49, is set at 1905, a 1:30 "dwell". Granted, about 30 minutes are required to combine the trains. 1:30, to me, is excessive. Again, if #49 or #449 is late, bite the bullet and inform the passengers.
If you are a First Class passenger and a one-stop policy in in effect at a dinky station in Wisconsin, would you want th schlepp your luggage thru four or five cars, including the diner &/or Sightseer Lounge to get to your accomodations? I doubt it! That would not be "First Class" travel! Lengthen the platforms. Money, apparently, is available.
schlimmIs there something inherently slow about passenger boardings in Montana and Albany that it requires 20-30 minutes for a stop?
Although I'm not versed in all the schedul padding at Albany one has to wonder if once the double track is restored from Albany - Schenectady that there may be less padding?? There will not be the problem of a train waiting at ALB or SDY for a train to clear that single track 18 mile up to 30 minute schedule times between the two stations.
BNSFwatcherI'd settle for "average run times", ILO "optimum run times", for the TT. Stop the "padding". The "Empire Builder", sitting here in Shelby, MT for 20+ minutes, most days, is rediculous, as is the 25+ minute dwell in Havre, only 103 miles to the east. The 1:30 dwell for #449, the "Late Shore Limited" Boston section at ALB is criminal, even with the internal warfare (Operating Crews vs. Station Personnel vs. Dispatchers vs. Yardmasters, etc.) subsiding!
Although I think the LD trains should be eliminated, I agree with Bill. Is there something inherently slow about passenger boardings in Montana and Albany that it requires 20-30 minutes for a stop? Heavily patronized commuter trains in the US and intercity trains in Europe can get in and out of stations in 2-3 minutes.
One of the points about Amtrak dwell times at stations is because there is a travelling public that either needs, wants, or uses trains! If no one was using trains, they wouldn't have to stop at all!
All right. Why can't Amtrak, either through reservations or by train crew, just make sure that all passengers for one stop are at the one to whatever number of vestibules that fits the given platform?
I'd settle for "average run times", ILO "optimum run times", for the TT. Stop the "padding". The "Empire Builder", sitting here in Shelby, MT for 20+ minutes, most days, is rediculous, as is the 25+ minute dwell in Havre, only 103 miles to the east. The 1:30 dwell for #449, the "Late Shore Limited" Boston section at ALB is criminal, even with the internal warfare (Operating Crews vs. Station Personnel vs. Dispatchers vs. Yardmasters, etc.) subsiding! BTW, the "Empire Builder" is on-time, most of the time. Yar!, winter weather and loons, parked on the tracks, as well as deer crossings can knock everything a-kilter. Passengers would accept that, if the on-board crew told them what is going on. That's the least they could do, methinks.
BNSFwatcher BNSF has a state-of-the-art re-fueling facility (4-position) at Havre, MT. It is located at the east end of the platform. The WB "Empire Builder" stops there to re-fuel, then pulls into the depot afterwards to do "passenger business". Dwells 25+ minutes, then heads west. It usually arrives in Shelby 30-35 minutes early, sometimes more, and departs at 1722. That is not "truth in timetabling". The fuel truck is NOT used to re-fuel the "Empire Builder". I suspect it is used for the yard engines, but dunno, fur sure. The train is re-fueled at Minot by truck(s) while it is parked at the depot. Minot is a crew change point and it takes on dining car supplies, ice, etc.. It is, also, the first "smoke break" after the overnight WB trip and the last one EB for quite a ways. With the combining of the PDX and SEA sections in SPK, the EB "Empire Builder" has the SEA cars on the head end and the PDX cars on the rear. Every time I have taken it we did double-taps in the little burgs mentioned. I guess it is easire to position the "shorts", for those stations, in one end, obviating the pull-up, for the WB train. 5+5+5+5 minutes does add up to real time, as does the dwell time at Shelby! I don't think 'padding' the TT for unexpected delays is right. Bite-the-bullet, if they happen, but have the on-board crew notify the passengers about it! Fat chance!!! If I had HSR money to spend, I'd replace BNSF's "stick rail" between Grand Forks and Minot, ND. It is pretty bad. Fasten your seatbelt, if you are in a sleeping car! Real incremental improvement -- not HSR is the answer, methinks! Hays
With the combining of the PDX and SEA sections in SPK, the EB "Empire Builder" has the SEA cars on the head end and the PDX cars on the rear. Every time I have taken it we did double-taps in the little burgs mentioned. I guess it is easire to position the "shorts", for those stations, in one end, obviating the pull-up, for the WB train. 5+5+5+5 minutes does add up to real time, as does the dwell time at Shelby!
I don't think 'padding' the TT for unexpected delays is right. Bite-the-bullet, if they happen, but have the on-board crew notify the passengers about it! Fat chance!!!
If I had HSR money to spend, I'd replace BNSF's "stick rail" between Grand Forks and Minot, ND. It is pretty bad. Fasten your seatbelt, if you are in a sleeping car! Real incremental improvement -- not HSR is the answer, methinks!
Schedules are designed to be maintainable....the best possible times are not consistantly maintainable....be that the operation of Planes, Trains or Automobiles....and for that matter water borne vessels.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am not sure what you mean about 'Truth in Timetabling'. Long station stops have been around even before Amtrak. GN transcon trains many time made fuel/engine changes and even washing the domes at Havre for years. It has always been a long stop. The same thing happened on the NP at Livingston. I suspect that the mainline fueling at the depot stopped with all of the 'spill/collection' requirements, and Amtrak found that getting truck to do the refueling was a cost effective solution. IIRC, Amtrak was refueling at Minot as well, from a local fuel oil distributor's truck.
The current Empire Builder on the ex-Milw route has short platforms at Red Wing, Tomah, Wisc Dells, & Columbus for sure, but La Crosse, Winona, and Portage have longer platforms. The only time I have seen a double stop was when several PV's were on the back of the train, and they took on special guests. The original Hiawatha did not even stop at Red Wing.
Amtrak's Empire Builder schedule is 'padded' and allows for recovery when there are delays. The EB train has 77 minutes scheduled between Red Wing and Winona(63 miles). It usually is at the Winona depot early. The current schedule for EB trains is a running time of 7 hours, 55 minutes - not too bad for over 400 miles. Not the 6 hour, 30 minute scheles of Hiawatha days, but there is not 100 mph speeds allowed any more as well. With no cab signalling, no double track, and restrictive maximum allowed speeds - the current schedule is reasonable.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Don't know but probably Amtrak believes most of the people riding the EB aren't in any hurry to get anywhere or they wouldn't be riding it. How did the platforms get shortened anyway? They must have been longer in the old CMStP&P Hiawatha days. The Lake Cities example is another inexcusable Amtrak absurdity.
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