henry6 It was, I believe, an ICC regulation that a passenger train could not leave a given station before its scheduled time. The idea was that a public timetable was a written contract between the railroad and the public where the railroad would provide that service at that time. Unless otherwise noted; like in commuter zones during peak hours where it is good railroading to keep the trains moveing providing passsengers with a quick ride usually homebound. It is based on the idea that there are few if any passengers boarding at these stations in the given direction at that time of day.
It was, I believe, an ICC regulation that a passenger train could not leave a given station before its scheduled time. The idea was that a public timetable was a written contract between the railroad and the public where the railroad would provide that service at that time. Unless otherwise noted; like in commuter zones during peak hours where it is good railroading to keep the trains moveing providing passsengers with a quick ride usually homebound. It is based on the idea that there are few if any passengers boarding at these stations in the given direction at that time of day.
The ICC may have had something to say about it at some point, but for all practical purposes, scheduled times have their roots in timetable and train order operation. All companies' rule books specified that a regular train must not leave a station (read: a place mentioned in the timetable by name) before the time whown in the timetable. This was so that opposing inferior trains would have a time to run against, clearing the superior train by the time shown. There were a thousand variances to the general statement, so let's not get off into that territory, at least for now.
While scheduled times were, in point of fact, for the use of employees, and were shown in the employee timetable, a railroad's public timetables followed the same general script, but for a different reason: the train should not depart until the time shown so passengers had a benchmark or departure time against which boarding became problematic if not impossible, as the train's markers rolled off into the sunset.
In any event, Amtrak carries on the tradition set so many years ago, and it is the OP's responsiblity to either ask if they do not understand, or take the time to read the section of the timetable clearly marked "How To Use This Timetable"., rather than trash the railroad and turn the conversation into something political, an issue rightfully taken up in the February 2010 issue of Trains.
DeggestyIf a train is scheduled to discharge and not receive passengers, it may leave as soon as the passengers who are to detrain are off the train. Consider that the Silver Service trains, the Cardinal and the Crescent do not take passengers at Alexandria or any stop north of there, and the Carolinian does not take passengers at Washington or at any stop north of there. No departure time is shown at Washington for these trains--change the engine and go!
Hey! Someone who can actually read and comprehend the timetable! Very good. There are a lot of little nuances such as "D" for discharge passengers only. This does in fact permit a train to depart ahead of a scheduled time, however it must be shown as such in the timetable. Further, deadhead equipment to/from a location where passengers might board may also be a non stop move without scheduled times, at least in this modern era.
An argument might be made that today's passenger operations are more complex than the older eras, but I tend to disagree, simply by virtue of the sheer volume of trains and movements then, in addition to the fact that the types of operations previously described (discharge only, receive only, no baggage, deadhead equipment, etc) were every bit as prevalent then, if not more so, than now.
4merroad4man Hey! Someone who can actually read and comprehend the timetable! Very good. There are a lot of little nuances such as "D" for discharge passengers only. This does in fact permit a train to depart ahead of a scheduled time, however it must be shown as such in the timetable. Further, deadhead equipment to/from a location where passengers might board may also be a non stop move without scheduled times, at least in this modern era. An argument might be made that today's passenger operations are more complex than the older eras, but I tend to disagree, simply by virtue of the sheer volume of trains and movements then, in addition to the fact that the types of operations previously described (discharge only, receive only, no baggage, deadhead equipment, etc) were every bit as prevalent then, if not more so, than now.
As to conditional stops, Amtrak is quite simple--some stops are flag stops, some are receive only, and some are discharge only. If you had occasion to use the Guide in the days of yore, you remember, I am sure, the great variety of reasons that trains stopped at various stations; indeed some tables had so many different reasons that it could be difficult to find a particular note in the table of reasons because not only letters were used to denote a conditional stop, but various symbols had to be used--and there was, of course, no rhyme or reason to the order they were listed in the table of explanation.. The condition for a stop could be quite involved--take the condition in effect in January of 1930 for IC #2 to stop in Wesson, Miss.: "Stops Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday to leave revenue passengers from New Orleans and to take for north of Grenada."
It would be wonderful to have even half the long distance trains listed in that issue--and to have good passenger loading on all of them.
Johnny
Sam1 The worst delay that I can think of afflicts those passengers on the Texas Eagle who are traveling from points north of San Antonio (SA) to points west of the Alamo City and vice versa. South and west bound they arrive in SA. at 9:55 p.m., but they do not depart until 5:40 a.m. East and north bound they arrive in SA at 9:30 p.m. and depart at 7:00 a.m. In terms of actual minutes of dwell, yes, they are pretty substantial, but in terms of when the occur, they are minimal, since most passengers sleep right through the delay. There is nothing sneaky about the layovers. They are clearly stated in the timetable. However, on two recent trips on the Eagle, several fellow passengers expressed shock when they learned how long they would be lying over in the Alamo City. Apparently they had not read the timetable. The long layovers in SA have at least two positive consequences. If the trains are on-time, which has largely been the case for the past year or so, the layovers give the through passengers plenty of time to visit some of the watering holes along the famed SA River Walk or just the walk for teetotalers. And for those passengers in the through sleeping car who do not sleep well whilst the train is moving, they can count on little movement during the night whilst laying over in SA and, therefore, hopefully have a more restful night than would be true if the train was moving. Hopefully the delays get reduced to something a little more resonable if the schedules change in October, however there is only so much that can be done, for San Antonio conducts a 1500 mile inspection on the train, provides other services to the equipment and all that usually takes around an hour to an hour and a half, minimum. None of this can be accomplished until the trains are switched out, a process that takes up even more time. So the dwell is not based on schedule recovery alone; there is necessary work that must be allowed for, as well, and it is that work that will generally drive the dwell time. Nevertheless, I hope the Eagle replaces the Sunset Limited west of SA, as has been discussed in a previous posting, and the dwell time in SA is reduced to a reasonable time. Time will tell on that one Sam.
The worst delay that I can think of afflicts those passengers on the Texas Eagle who are traveling from points north of San Antonio (SA) to points west of the Alamo City and vice versa. South and west bound they arrive in SA. at 9:55 p.m., but they do not depart until 5:40 a.m. East and north bound they arrive in SA at 9:30 p.m. and depart at 7:00 a.m.
In terms of actual minutes of dwell, yes, they are pretty substantial, but in terms of when the occur, they are minimal, since most passengers sleep right through the delay.
There is nothing sneaky about the layovers. They are clearly stated in the timetable. However, on two recent trips on the Eagle, several fellow passengers expressed shock when they learned how long they would be lying over in the Alamo City. Apparently they had not read the timetable.
The long layovers in SA have at least two positive consequences. If the trains are on-time, which has largely been the case for the past year or so, the layovers give the through passengers plenty of time to visit some of the watering holes along the famed SA River Walk or just the walk for teetotalers. And for those passengers in the through sleeping car who do not sleep well whilst the train is moving, they can count on little movement during the night whilst laying over in SA and, therefore, hopefully have a more restful night than would be true if the train was moving.
Hopefully the delays get reduced to something a little more resonable if the schedules change in October, however there is only so much that can be done, for San Antonio conducts a 1500 mile inspection on the train, provides other services to the equipment and all that usually takes around an hour to an hour and a half, minimum. None of this can be accomplished until the trains are switched out, a process that takes up even more time. So the dwell is not based on schedule recovery alone; there is necessary work that must be allowed for, as well, and it is that work that will generally drive the dwell time.
Nevertheless, I hope the Eagle replaces the Sunset Limited west of SA, as has been discussed in a previous posting, and the dwell time in SA is reduced to a reasonable time.
Time will tell on that one Sam.
That brings up another reason there were/are elongated schedules on overnight trains...to allow the sleeping car passengers proper sleep times...say after 10 at night until probably 7 in the morning and might inlcude breakfast aboard going into end terminals. PRR used to have a sleeping car open at 8PM at NYP which was picked up by the overnight Owl from Boston for D.C. after midnight...maybe even close to 3 in the morning. Accomodating customers or Customer Service was what it was called. The railroads weren't running trains they were providing a service.
EDIT: To enlarge upon the above. Many railroads allowed terminating sleeping cars to be occupied for several hours after terminal arrival or before departure. This happened where cars were set off or were picked up or ended on a branch line terminal.
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henry6 PRR used to have a sleeping car open at 8PM at NYP which was picked up by the overnight Owl from Boston for D.C. after midnight...maybe even close to 3 in the morning.
I can't remember for sure but didn't Amtrak in its early years continue this service with Heritage sleepers?
Henry, you do mean the Federal, do you not? The New Haven's Owl was strictly a Boston-NY train. There was a time when the northbound Federal added a sleeper in New York, for the benefit of passengers who prefered leaving from Penn Station rather than Grand Central. There was no correspoding service southbound, at least in February of 1950.
There was also interchange of cars between trains in the middle of the night, as some of the cars coming into Nashville on the Hummingbird left on the Georgian, and vice versa.
blue streak 1I can't remember for sure but didn't Amtrak in its early years continue this service with Heritage sleepers?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I know Amtrak "continued" the service for sometime so it may have been a PC service but I thought it was NH to PRR, too. And I thought it was the Owl but a check of my June 1955 Guide indicates it would have had to have been the Federal.
Col DqnThe only time that counts is the leave time at t he orgination station of the train, .....
Even in these days of radio and track warrents and lots of single track, that is not a true statement. From an operation and safety point of view, all have to know the expected whereabouts every train. From an service point of view, you've got to be reliable and deliver what you promise at least. From a marketing point of view, you've got to provide a usable service. And you certain cannot leave a point before the advertised time, unless otherwise noted and provided for, for all of the above reasons, too. And you know, adhering to the schedule will give those involved in the operation a sense of pride and accomplishiment which means they will try again next time, and again and again after that! Don't poo poo a schedule becaus of what might happen, work to make the schedule happen and everybody wins.
We came in late, so we will leave late. Was it weather? Was it traffic?
I'm talking Airlines !!!
The Pilot (Captain) can't just say load up, close the doors, let's go! He must revise his flight plan, coordinate with other aircraft/airlines for space in the air traffic control system, and get a new depature time.
Amtrak, except for parts of the Northeast, runs on other railroad's tracks. The freight railroads are money makers. The freight railroads run long trains at 1/2 to 2/3 the speed of an Amtrak passenger Trains. They run them often, in some cases hourly! Like the lowly airliner above, once the Amtrak Train is late it will need a new "time slot".
Albany to Boston, PC single tracked the line and CSX is stuck with it west of Framingham MA. The State now wants to extend the double tracking from Farmington to Worcester to aid Commuter Rail.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
DMUinCT Albany to Boston, PC single tracked the line and CSX is stuck with it west of Framingham MA.
Not to beat a dead gato...er, caballo, the prefered policy would be to tell the truth. #8 is scheduled to depart Cut Bank, MT at 1045. The run is 24 miles to Shelby, which it departs at 1143. Granted, most of the distance is not 79 mph running, but still leaves a 20-minute stop at SBY for 5-minutes of business. It would be nice to chop that time off the sked. As for the arrival time at Havre, the 1439 time is for arrival at the fueling facility. The public isn't told it will spend ten minutes there before pulling into the depot. The vestibules get quite crowded during that time. Sometimes the on-board crew actually announces it! Albany is more of a mess.
Hays
How 'bout this, Anti-Smoking N***: put a "Canadian Pacific-type Tourist Car", or even a gondola with folding chairs, on the end of every LD train? Might be a bit uncomfortable in Minot, ND in January, but... Us drug addicts have some (not many) rights, too.
The more uncomfortable it is for one to smoke the better for all of us. I love to see the huddle around a building door in sub zereo temperatures and deluging rain inviting pneumonia into their lungs on top of whatever is the the cig Even their funerals will be cheaper on our health system than if they just if they just get sick!
oltmanndDMUinCT Albany to Boston, PC single tracked the line and CSX is stuck with it west of Framingham MA.Actually, Conrail single tracked it in the mid-80s when they replaced the truly ancient ABS signalling with cab signals w/o wayside. The B&A has an ancient alignment, too. Lots of curves and one big and one little grade to get over. Even with some curve straightening and modernization over the years, it's still a pretty slow piece of RR.
Forgot about Conrail, always thought of them as the "good guys". Down in CT it was PC that wanted to distroy the old New Haven Railroad. In fact a PC crew was arrested for tearing up track that should have reverted to the State.
henry6The more uncomfortable it is for one to smoke the better for all of us. I love to see the huddle around a building door in sub zereo temperatures and deluging rain inviting pneumonia into their lungs on top of whatever is the the cig
I wonder if our engineers can smoke in their cabs?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmI wonder if our engineers can smoke in their cabs?
Most offices and stores are smoke free so I believe all Amtrak empoyees are also prohibitd from smoking while on duty.
Yup! And 90% of them are government employees. Your tax dollars "at work"!
BNSFwatcher Yup! And 90% of them are government employees. Your tax dollars "at work"! Hays
HUH? What do you mean?
Duh! "Two wrongs don't make a right". Ever travel Amtrak? At a "smoke stop", the on-board crew is among the first to light up! Horrors!
I have no idea of what you're talking about or where you're coming from! Doesn't matter who smokes or wants to smoke, it is not a good thing, costs everybody health and attnending wealth, and I don't want it to be the reason a train has to lose any amount of time in its'schedule.
I may be missing something in his various postings but Hays is coming across like a re-incarnation of Lucius Beebe, a snob who could not deal with the various economic, technical and social changes that occurred since the end of the First World War and wanted to accomplish nothing as much as turning the clock back.
Yes, those training missions are saving our bacon, but, at least for the pilots they are having all the fun they can have with their clothes on.....and on our tax dollars. Go NAVY, Go Amtrak.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCHI may be missing something in his various postings but Hays is coming across like a re-incarnation of Lucius Beebe, a snob who could not deal with the various economic, technical and social changes that occurred since the end of the First World War and wanted to accomplish nothing as much as turning the clock back.
Beebe had a lot of class.
Yar! I was a "Preppie", a "Trust Funder", and a "Snob" long before they invented "Yuppies". I have no truck with the nouveau riche. As far as the "others" go, "Let them eat cake!".
Hays (still on Standard Time!)
CSSHEGEWISCH I may be missing something in his various postings but Hays is coming across like a re-incarnation of Lucius Beebe, a snob who could not deal with the various economic, technical and social changes that occurred since the end of the First World War and wanted to accomplish nothing as much as turning the clock back.
DeggestyLucius Beebe did produce some books that I have enjoyed for more than fifty years. It is true that he decried some of the accepted wisdom of his time--in the early fifties he presented the idea that instead of levying a surcharge for the privilege of getting from Chicago to the West Coast in as short a time as possible, the railroads should levy a surcharge for the luxury of spending three or more days on one train.
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