HarveyK400 Money will be spent to increase speed to 110 mph; why undermine the effectiveness of this betterment with arcane ticket collection.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeatonI don't think that the number of doors opened or limited platform length is going to be any problem for the Milwaukee-Chicago service. I am sure that by far the largest passenger counts are at the terminals of the service.
That sounds right but if you check 2008 Hiawatha service, it shows total ridership of 750,000. The two intermediate stops are Glenview, IL - 66,000 and Sturtevant, WI - 74,000. A fair number of people board or get off at those two stops - almost 20% or 27 people per train. The same situation occurs on the three Amtrak trains through Champaign, IL 152,000 or 70 people per train. I don't know how long in duration those stops are (not shown in timetable) but I bet it's more than a couple minutes.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
jeatonI don't think that the number of doors opened or limited platform length is going to be any problem for the Milwaukee-Chicago service. I am sure that by far the largest passenger counts are at the terminals of the service. Assuming the train crew consists of just the conductor and one assistant, they might only open two doors at the intermediate stops, but I doubt that the passenger counts at those stops cause any significant delays. Given that the Talgo car doors are at or very close to the platform level, I suspect that movement into and out of the car will be quicker than that for the Amfleet or Horizon coaches. The conductors lifting tickets on the platforms at the intermediate stops is not for security. It is just the method being used to be sure they get a ticket from every passenger.
I don't think that the number of doors opened or limited platform length is going to be any problem for the Milwaukee-Chicago service. I am sure that by far the largest passenger counts are at the terminals of the service. Assuming the train crew consists of just the conductor and one assistant, they might only open two doors at the intermediate stops, but I doubt that the passenger counts at those stops cause any significant delays.
Given that the Talgo car doors are at or very close to the platform level, I suspect that movement into and out of the car will be quicker than that for the Amfleet or Horizon coaches. The conductors lifting tickets on the platforms at the intermediate stops is not for security. It is just the method being used to be sure they get a ticket from every passenger.
60-70 passengers got off #339 at Sturtevant the last time I was up there in June. The train was in the station for over a minute. Assuming almost everyone had a monthly pass and evenly divided between doors, that still takes a minute more to board than using all doors.
Metra has little problem in checking tickets and taking cash fares on board. From my and others experience, tickets are collected on board in Europe to keep down dwell time at intermediate stations.
If on-board fare control is unacceptable for security reasons, then most stations can be fenced and secured and boarding controlled by station personnel as I suggested previously.
How much faster would the train have to run to make up for that extra minute for boarding? What happens if another stop is added at Truesdale? Together with MAS and Glenview or another stop, those four add four minutes to the schedule between Chicago and Milwaukee. Money will be spent to increase speed to 110 mph; why undermine the effectiveness of this betterment with arcane ticket collection.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Sssshhh!
(Amtrak hq is in DC)
In any case, if so-called homeland security is so important, why aren't those same standards applied to Metra, Marta, etc.? Logic?
I certainly agree with you; and think the security threat is overblown. What's more, computerized car and seat assignment would not be that difficult; and signage along the platform would mark one's boarding location.
In the present environment, secured access is possible, even if there is a breach in security boarding at a Metra station "westbound" to Wisconsin.
Perhaps the ticket checking process needs to be changed to on board, like Metra, where it works fine. Can you imagine how long it would take to board a rush hour Metra with only one door open?
The problem is not the number of doors on the train; but the number of doors opened at the stations - see earlier post. As with Metra, European train ticket processing is carried out on board and in route. 9-11 just reinforced the common, but not universal, US railroad and subsequent Amtrak practice of checking tickets at the door.
As for door layout, each 43(?)-foot, 30-passenger Cascade Talgo intermediate unit has a vestibule and door in the end suspended by the adjacent unit. There is an accessible toilet with water and sanitation tanks, electrical panel, and luggage rack between the vestibule and seating area. The HVAC and possibly brake valve and reservoir are located ahead of the wheels and suspension.
Question: What's the door layout of the Talgoes (or talgo-like cars) in other settings? Do they have so few doors? I wonder because one of the factors that allows quick times on European trains is the short pause time for loading/unloading on platforms, often as short as one minute.
Fourteen 43-foot coach units would indicate the need for a platform 562 feet long over the train doors. If the practice with a small crew continues that only two or three doors are opened to check tickets and IDs before boarding, platform length is not a great concern.
However the limited number of open doors extends the dwell time for boarding and alighting by minutes. Minutes can be saved by using all train doors and spreading seat assignments to utilize those doors. Even if alternate intermediate units were without doors, toilets, and wheelchair tie-downs for increased seating, seven doors would be available and cut dwell time to only about half a minute to load and go.
It seems that platform access could be controlled at MAS and Sturtevant. Tickets and IDs could be checked and passengers could wait for the train in a departure lounge or on the platform. This might facilitate reducing on-board crew; but also require additional station personnel. Passengers needing assistance could be accommodated with either station or on-board personnel.
The Talgo car design that is FRA compliant is about 43 feet. The 14 car train set might be longer than the platforms at Milwaukee Airport and Sturdevant, but I don't think there is a problem at Milwaukee, Glenview or CUS.
Actually, I was wondering more about whether the locomotive would be articulated power cars or independent units that require articulated train end units. These end units are said to be rougher riding; explaining their frequent use as an auxiliary (train) power or baggage car instead of revenue space.
The published description of 14 cars and 420 seats corresponds with the normal capacity of 30 seats per intermediate unit and indicates that the end units would be used for revenue space and no business class or food service would be available on the trains. The trains could be lengthened with additional intermediate units with some proportionate impact on acceleration.
Someone asked why so many cars were needed; and the answer is in part that each Talgo intermediate unit has less than half the number of seats of a conventional Amfleet or Horizon coach. While the additional capacity was intended for future growth and the attraction of a faster service, the recent bump in ridership consumes virtually all that reserve capacity. In case anyone missed it, Hiawathas are now running with solid Amfleet consists of six cars with perhaps as many as 444 seats (I don't know what the current seating configuration may be).
jeaton....the order is for 2-14 car trains sets with options for two more.....
You can Google Wisconsin & Talgo for some more information, but the order is for 2-14 car trains sets with options for two more. The release I saw stated that "existing" locomotives will be used for the service. Since the service will continue to be operated by Amtrak, one can assume they will use the Gensis locomotives now in the service.
Anybody have information on locomotives for Talgos ordered by Wisconsin for Hiawatha service?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.