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The Great RDC Race

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 6:09 AM
aegrotatio

Neither, because you were not paying attention to my post.  The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive.  Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels.  There are no batteries on these buses.  These are laid out just like a locomotive.  I saw both kinds.

I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense.  I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive.

 Anyone?

Yes, but why would you? Paul laid it out pretty well. I'll just add that the reason the electric transmission in the DE locomotive is a good fit is that is allows full HP to be applied to the rails on a continuous basis over a wide speed range. You can lug up hill for hours at 15 mph or cruise on the flat at 60 mph with the same locomotive, all at full HP. For an RDC, like a car, you don't need full HP over the whole speed range, you only need enough to accelerate from a stop up to normal operating speed. Simpler is better, so a direct drive through a torque converter fills the bill nicely. The added complexity (and losses) of an electric transmission would only be useful if you were interested in capturing and reusing braking energy or if you had some packaging constraint that prevented a simple direct drive.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, September 8, 2009 5:53 PM

aegrotatio

Neither, because you were not paying attention to my post.  The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive.  Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels.  There are no batteries on these buses.  These are laid out just like a locomotive.  I saw both kinds.

I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense.  I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive.

 Anyone?

They have what are now called "DMUs" (Diesel multiple unit) trains in Europe and other places, and there is a variety of DMU that is a 3-unit articulated light rail car that uses a genset to power the traction motors so they don't have to string trolley wires.

As far as the hybrid bus, they use something called the "two-mode transmission", which is kind of like the Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive, only instead of using a single planetary gear set connecting an engine, an electric motor, and an electric generator, it has, I understand, two planetary gear sets to get a broader speed/torque range.  Either the two-mode transmission or the Hybrid Synergy Drive is a form of electro-motive transmission (engine-generator-traction-motor), only it uses planetary gears in addition to wires to link these elements in order to get by with smaller generator and motor and by transmitting a portion of the torque mechanically. 

There is probably no reason the Hybrid Synergy Drive (one planetary gear set) or the two-mode transmission (two planetary gear sets) could not be used without the battery storage to do what you want.  As such, it would be an electro-mechanical transmission, in contrast with a hydraulic torque converter-gear set combination in the common type of hydro-kinetic transmission made by Voith and others, used in buses and in the CRC DMUs.

I followed the links that got posted about the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulics (primarly on the SP as Rio Grande sold the few units they had to SP, who seemed to have a greater committment to getting this to work).  I am not so sure if the problems with the K-M locomotives were intrinsic to Diesel hydraulic or simply a matter of putting a lot of HP in a small package and then not having it designed it for heavy-duty operations (i.e. running for hours at a time at low speeds in Run 8).

When you think about it, Europe has its version of the Donner Pass on any of a number of Alpine passes, but these are probably all electrified, and in Europe the Diesels get lighter-duty assignments.

Building a high HP Diesel locomotive for lugging trains over the Donner Pass is probably not a simple matter either for Diesel Electric or Diesel Hydraulic locomotives, and perhaps K-M didn't put as much effort into this as EMD and GE over the years.  Come to think of it, the minority brands -- Baldwin-Lima, ALCo, FM -- fell by the wayside as they were never as bullet proof as the EMD offering, and GE probably stuck enough corporate resources into this until they bested EMD when EMD stumbled with the SD60.

So from a theoretical standpoint, one could probably build effective locomotives or DMU cars using either hydraulic or electric drive, and which one is successful in the marketplace probably depends on who works at this hard and long enough.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by aegrotatio on Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:00 PM

Neither, because you were not paying attention to my post.  The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive.  Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels.  There are no batteries on these buses.  These are laid out just like a locomotive.  I saw both kinds.

I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense.  I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive.

 Anyone?

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:59 PM

When you say "electro-motive", do you mean that as "Electro-Motive Diesel" (Canada), or just generic electrically-powered busses?

I'm sure, if they are being tested in NYC, they are a "Bloomberg Boondoggle", with a bit (on the side) for Al Sharpton, et. al. the ladrones.  Wow!  An RDC has a lot of roof area.  Why not "solar-powered" RDCs?  I'm sure our friends in Japan could convert some "Priuses" ("Priii"?) to run a RDC, all profits going to Tokyo.  If a solar-powered RDC were to dwell in Grand Central Terminal or Penn Station, I'm sure ConEd would provide a neat 'tanning bed' overhead.

Now, if you wanted to get home in the winter, or at night, "Sorry Charlie"....

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Posted by espeefoamer on Sunday, September 6, 2009 3:00 AM

cx500

henry6

Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos.  The others have chapters about RDC's.  There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's.

On another note.  I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's!  I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR.  I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.

 

A mail order bookseller in a 1992 Trains magazine advertises, among other titles, "Budd Car: The RDC Story" by "Crouse" for $39.95.  I think there was also another book published about the same time.  One looked better than the other in my local hobby shop, but I neglected to buy either.

According to Ray Corley in a 1967 booklet published by the Upper Canada Railway Society, CNR re-engined  RDC-2 D-204 (later 6204) with Rolls-Royce engines in September 1960, and CPR did the same with RDC-2 9194 in March 1961.  The experiment was successful enough that the two retained the new engines, but as far as I know the experiment was not repeated.

John

There are several books on the RDC. The first is Crouse's book, Another is RDC ,The Budd Rail Diesel Car, by Donald Duke& Edmund Keilty,and the third is The Amazing Journey of Santa Fe's RDC, by Ed Saalig. This book includes a very detailed account of the disasterous wreck of thes cars in Los Angeles in January 1956.

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Posted by aegrotatio on Saturday, September 5, 2009 11:05 PM

 With the new electro-motive buses that are being tested in New York City I would hope to see more electro-motive RDC vehicles.  Is the equipment really that much more space than the hydrostatic transmissions?  It seems it would take less space.  Furthermore, it would appear with the advances shown in the electro-motive buses that technology might have caught up with a simple and lightweight powertrain for a modern electro-motive RDC.

 

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:16 PM

Thanks for the info on the New Haven's FM/Talgo "Speed Merchant", a.k.a. "The John Quincy Adams".  I do remember seeing it, I think, zooming thru New Rochelle.  CRS!  Did any other railroads try/buy it?

I have never been on a Talgo train, but might try one from Seattle, WA to Vancouver, BC shortly, with the reluctant permission of the Canadian Border Protection Services and the U. S.'s Department of Hemorrhoid Scratching.  "Bureaucracy at its Finest"!  Over-funded fools, methinks!!!

Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT  wdh@mcn.net

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Tuesday, September 1, 2009 6:55 PM

I have traveled by rail since I was a wee bairn, almost always "Pullman"/First Class.  I did commute, for a number of years, on the NYC and the NYNH&H, but the bar car made everything cool!  I did make a trip, from Montana to New York on coach ("Cattle Car") a few years ago, but never again.  To me, a LD train must have, at least, two locomotives (and two engineers!), a diner, maybe a lounge car, and sleepers.  That is the difference between riding the rails and "Riding the Dog".  I did do three (short) trips in coach in the past two months, but I'd never want to make a steady diet of it.

Amtrak "Thruway Buses" are okay.  I had to catch one from LAX to BFD, connect with a real cool "San Joaquin" to MTZ, and meet the "Coast Starlight" to get home.  The bus trip was enjoyable and efficient, but that doesn't excuse the Union Pacific of their total disregard for Amtrak and its connections.  We sat in Tucson, on #1, while FIVE freights passed us, all going westbound ahead of us.  There "is a law" and it ought to be enforced!

Bill Hays -- Mad, in Montana (at the UP).

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Posted by cx500 on Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:35 PM

henry6

Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos.  The others have chapters about RDC's.  There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's.

On another note.  I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's!  I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR.  I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.

 

A mail order bookseller in a 1992 Trains magazine advertises, among other titles, "Budd Car: The RDC Story" by "Crouse" for $39.95.  I think there was also another book published about the same time.  One looked better than the other in my local hobby shop, but I neglected to buy either.

According to Ray Corley in a 1967 booklet published by the Upper Canada Railway Society, CNR re-engined  RDC-2 D-204 (later 6204) with Rolls-Royce engines in September 1960, and CPR did the same with RDC-2 9194 in March 1961.  The experiment was successful enough that the two retained the new engines, but as far as I know the experiment was not repeated.

John

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:50 PM

Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos.  The others have chapters about RDC's.  There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's.

On another note.  I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's!  I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR.  I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM

BNSFwatcher

Interesting stuff.  Has anyone written a book?

Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT 

Youse wanna book?  I got yer book . . . right here!

Jason Shron (2007) Turbotrain: A Journey, Rapido Trains, Concord, Ontario.

Louis A Marre (1995) The Contemporaryt Diesel Spotter's Guide, 2nd Edition, Kalmbach, Waukesha, Wisconsin.

Jerry A Pinkepank (1973) The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, Kalmbach, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Geoffrey H Doughty (1997) New York Central and the Trains of the Future, TLC Publishing, Lynchburg, Virginia.

 

Turbotrain: A Journey is a chronical of the United Aircraft TurboTrain, but it has a lot of great not-seen-before pictures.  It is a self-admitted fan piece about the TurboTrain (or Turbo as they called it in Canada), but reading it one gets the sense that it was heavy on maintenance.  And the problems with the Turbo may not have been so much as the turbine engines, although these were adapted from helicopters and had maintenance cycles in the low hundreds of hours, I believe, but with the miriad of details that go into a train.  For example, it had these tiny streetcar wheels combined with tread brakes (instead of honkin' disks as on the Acela), and this made for very short wheel life.

The Contemporary Diesel Spotters Guide has a short section on the TurboTrain -- I guess these could be confused with Diesels and the smart spotter has to know how to spot the difference.  The Pinkepank Second Diesel Spotter's Guide describes the BLH locomotives used with the Dan'l Webster Train-X and the Fairbanks Morse "Speed Merchant" locomotives used with the John Quincy Adams Talgo.  The BLH locomotive was an oddball with a German Maybach Diesel and hydraulic transmission; the Fairbanks Morse (FM) was more conventional in that it was Diesel electric, but on the other hand an orphan that it had the FM opposed piston (OP) engine that one had to take to top end off to get at the pistons for maintenance.

My original point about the Great RDC Race was that something reasonably well engineered for railroad use and not too exotic could maintain a fast schedule and provide a comfortable ride, and that Chicago-DC, considered an LD train, could perhaps be operated as a day train, perhaps serving "corridor" city pairs up and down the route, and do this in a fuel efficient manner.  The schedule, type of equipment, and manner of service seems to be outside Amtrak's thinking (and that of some in the advocacy community who believe an LD train has to have 2 locomotives and the full complement of amenities and sleepers).

 

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:27 PM

Mostly New Haven:

I did find some info on the Budd Co's. "Hot Rod".  Apparently it was the 6-RDC set they sold to the New Haven, named "Roger Williams".  I can't see that they sold any others.  This info is from the NRHS's Phila. Chapter site.  They indicate that all the intermediate units of the train were "blind" -- no controls or engineer's window.  Did the NH rebuild them to normal RDC configuration?

The "Train X" (BLH?) was named the "Dan'l Webster".

The Talgo (powered by whom?  Separate locomotive?) was the "John Quincy Adams".

Apparently NH did not buy an ill-fated "Aerotrain" from Gummint Motors.  "Youse wanna ride a bus?  Buy a bus ticket!".

Guess there were other 'experimentals' out there.  The "Flying Yankee" (joint-venture with B&M) seemed to work.  How many were built?  One is undergoing restoration in New Hampshire.

As for the "turbos", that's another story, although CN seemed to like them.

Interesting stuff.  Has anyone written a book?

Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT 

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Posted by cordon on Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:13 AM

 Smile

Here's a photo of three of the refurbished Budd RDCs of the Trinity Railway Express in Dallas/Fort Worth commuter service.

 

They don't sound quite the same because the engines and transmissions are different from the originals, but that's OK with me.  I still like them.

Smile   Smile

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Posted by cx500 on Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:52 PM

passengerfan

I failed to mention another really excellent RDC route that between Calgary and Edmonton. The service was operated by CPRail and as I recall operated two and three car trains with an RDC2 leading a pair of RDC1s. When the service was upgraded during the action red era CP speeded up the service and added airline style galleys to the baggage compartment. Service was at your seat and the stewardesses were borrowed from CPAir. They really became popular with the passengers and I always felt it was to bad the service did not last. I believe it was due to numerous accidents at grade crossings that was responsible for the service ending.

Al - in - Stockton

 

In the latter days of operation by VIA, it was a single RDC1, two trains each way per day.  The numerous grade crossing accidents certainly influenced the cancellation of the service.  But all too often, I would estimate about 30% of the time,  the train would be replaced by a bus because of supposed mechanical problems.  If a passenger wanted to ride a bus he would have bought a bus ticket to begin with, since they also provided more frequent service.  Another case of the passenger operator being its own worst enemy.

John.

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Posted by passengerfan on Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:37 PM

I failed to mention another really excellent RDC route that between Calgary and Edmonton. The service was operated by CPRail and as I recall operated two and three car trains with an RDC2 leading a pair of RDC1s. When the service was upgraded during the action red era CP speeded up the service and added airline style galleys to the baggage compartment. Service was at your seat and the stewardesses were borrowed from CPAir. They really became popular with the passengers and I always felt it was to bad the service did not last. I believe it was due to numerous accidents at grade crossings that was responsible for the service ending.

Al - in - Stockton

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:42 PM

I should have clarified what I meant by "inflexible".  When a "cab unit" was out of service, and not in the consist, the Roger Williams would have lost its aesthetic appeal.  I guess they could have wyed the train at BOS or run it around a loop-track at NYG (GCT).

The name "Hot Rod" keeps coming to mind as another 'experimental' train.  Guess I'll have to Google that.

I was in Sydney, NS on the last day of passenger service on the CNR in 1989 (?).  A bunch of protestors chained themselves to the track and prevented the "last run" southbound.  Just by chance, I was in Saint John, NB a couple of days later to witness the last RDC arrival.  Sad times!

I didn't ride RDCs enough.  Loved 'em.  Did trips on CNR, CPR, NYC, and C&NW, I think.  Never took a B&M when I was briefly stationed at Ft. Devens, MA in 1959.  Missed chances elsewhere, I am sure.  The WP 'Feather River' train would have been a hoot!  Maybe I should jump up to Vancouver Island, BC post-haste.  CRS!

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, August 21, 2009 4:03 PM

The inability of early RDC's to give a good shunt is notorious...ask the NYC.  They had a bad rear ender in Palmer, MA when an eastbound was stopped at the station and got smacked with much loss of life.  After that RDC's were required to make two stops at stations to assure shunting.  All RDC cars got a special shunt circuit built in to assure safety after that. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, August 21, 2009 3:55 PM

Deggesty

My first trip was in a single car from Baltimore, in the spring of 1968, and our speed was limited because only one car was being operated. My second trip was to Baltimore, on the connection from the Capitol Limited in June the same year. With two cars in the train, we had more braking power, and thus were allowed to run faster.

...

Johnny

The speed limit on the single RDC was not because of braking power.  It was because of signal reliability.  B&O discovered, (I expect the hard way) that at speed RDC's would not reliably activate the track occupancy circuits....thus a Clear signal could be diplayed behind a track circuit that contained a RDC.  Additionally, single RDC's were prevented by Special Instruction from using sand during braking.

CSX has carried this restriction through in it's Rule Book and restricts single unit locomotives to 30 MPH system wide.  Multiple unit engine only consists can move at track speed.

The RDC excursion trip lead to the B&O using RDC equipment on it's Philadelphia to Pittsburgh run....the 3 car RDC's sets were called 'The Daylight Speedliner' and replaced a conventional equipment train on the run. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:11 PM

henry6
The engineer got up to speed quickly then hung his body over the speedometer for a few moments blocking it so I could not see the dial.  He asked me how fast I thought we were traveling and guessed about 70. He sat back revealing the needle at 74.  He whipped the throttle down took a sigh and said, "that's the fastest I'll ever go again in my career!"

I rather doubt that we went anywhere near that fast on my only RDC trip on the B&M (which I had forgtten about when writing my previous post); I went from Boston to Rockport and back in the early spring of 1984. Other than adding both new mileage and RDC travel, I do not remember anything remarkable.

Johnny

Johnny

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:50 AM
daveklepper
The New Haven's RDC-based Roger Williams did not have an inflexible consist.  Amtrak inhereted the equipment and used it with other RDC's with which its equipment would mu like any other RDC equipment.   It handled the "Bay State" run,  New Haven - Boston via Springfield, and often one regular RDC-1 would be in the consist, replacing one of the intermeidate cars or replacing one of the end sloped-front cars.   The train could be lengthened or shortened like any other RDC consist.   It lasted about fifteen years after the other New Haven McGinnis experimentals had been scrapped.   For all I know it might be around today on some tourist line.
Yup. Danbury. http://www.budd-rdc.org/sets/photos/drm8.png I saw the RW pair in Boston in 1978 operating in Amtrak colors, so they were around at least that long

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:29 AM

The B&M did run a remnant of the Montrealer into the winter of 67-68...weekend connections between Springfield and Greenfield, MA to accomodate college and private school students from NY attending Amherst, Smith, Holyoke and several other colleges plus a handful of private schools all the way into VT and NH.  I rode the last round trip run in Feb. of '68; the B&M saw fit to get kids back to school following the Winter Semester break.  It was a Sunday night and among the things I remember most were the fact that it ran north full, that a gull flew up from the warmth of a spring switch's heater into our headlight, and most of all the first few miles on the return trip from Greenfiled.  The car was empty, I was able to get into the cab for the trip back (I was a radio news reporter covering the last run).  The engineer got up to speed quickly then hung his body over the speedometer for a few moments blocking it so I could not see the dial.  He asked me how fast I thought we were traveling and guessed about 70. He sat back revealing the needle at 74.  He whipped the throttle down took a sigh and said, "that's the fastest I'll ever go again in my career!"

Another RDC ride was memorable...this was in the late 80's on the PC's Harlem Division from then Brewster North to Dover Plains and return.  It was a snowey day after Chirstmas and I found I wasn't the only railfan out for a maybe one last RDC ride...the car was full of passengers and railfans.  So full in fact railfans had to find  someplace other than the seats to ride.  There were probably almost 10 fans in each of the vestibules in both directions...I mean, if the public wants a seat with each ticket, who is a railfan to prevent them from getting thier full purchase?  And what railfan wouldn't find a great "fan" spot to place himself, either? 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:48 AM

The New Haven's RDC-based Roger Williams did not have an inflexible consist.  Amtrak inhereted the equipment and used it with other RDC's with which its equipment would mu like any other RDC equipment.   It handled the "Bay State" run,  New Haven - Boston via Springfield, and often one regular RDC-1 would be in the consist, replacing one of the intermeidate cars or replacing one of the end sloped-front cars.   The train could be lengthened or shortened like any other RDC consist.   It lasted about fifteen years after the other New Haven McGinnis experimentals had been scrapped.   For all I know it might be around today on some tourist line.

 The very first RDC operation was on the New York Central's Boston and Albany in Springfield-Boston service.  In the Autumn of 1949, I was having breakfast at MIT's Walker Memorial and saw the headline in the Boston (Globe?) "A New Interurban Car"   A photo and description.  That Thanksgiving or Christman break, I traveled to and from Detroit to visit relatives overnight coach), and the Wolverine Boston section was late.  At Springfield I spied the RDC loading passengers and asked the conductor to return my ticket and mark it so I could ride to Boston on the RDC.   He wrote something on my seat check and said there would not be a problem.   That was my first of many RDC rides.   The meals on the BCR were quite decent as I remember.   International RDC operation occured when RDC's took over the Boston - Montreal Allouette, with usually one CP and one B&M RDC mu'ed.   The last train service between Boston and Montreal after that train was discontinued was the B&M's remaining RDC service to Portland, ME, a taxi across town, and the Grand Trunk Friday and Sunday service to Montreal, with a parlor with meal service on the end.    Trinity Express still runs self-powered RDC's between Dallas and Fort Worth, so the RDC has had a long and useful life.  May it long continue.

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:36 PM

I went to St. Lawrence U., in Canton, NY '56-'59.  We had a "real" train serving Canton on the New York Central's St. Lawrence Division, with baggage car, coaches, a parlor-buffet, and a sleeping car!  It may have gone all the way to Montreal!  Dunno.  I donated all my memorabilia to the New York State Library a while back, including a few St. Lawrence Division timetables.  The train was affectionately known, in Canton, as the "Canton Creeper".  It was supplemented by a RDC train, during the day.  I took both of the trains between Harmon, NY and Canton.  Sometimes the Canton connection was at Utica, sometimes at Syracuse, mostly via Watertown.

The RDC train was usually two units.  Things could get tough, with winter snow in the North Country.  Once, we were stranded in Syracuse.  Solution:  Party!!!  Sixteen, to one motel room (co-ed), was really fun!

I hate to admit it, but on one trip we discovered that, by jumping up-and-down in the rear vestibule (6- or 8-guys), in syncronization, we could get the front trucks of the RDC to lift off the rails!  The engineer would panic (I don't blame him) and stop the unit.  Peer pressure (mostly female) made us cease-and-desist and we made it back to college in one piece.  Stupid?  Yar!!!

My brother was a St. Lawrence alumnus.  He got to ride the "head end", in an Alco RS-3, by telling NYC that he was going to write a story about the trip.  I never saw the story, but remember meeting him at Harmon on trains pulled by NYC's magnificent 4-8-4 "Niagaras".  That 'made' my Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday!

Bill

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Posted by BNSFwatcher on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:06 PM

Thanks for the info and the picture!  Cool!!!  The GM (Now "Gummint Motors") "Aerotrain" flopped because of the flimsy bus bodies it was cobbled together with, along with scant seating capacity.  The B+1 drive wasn't up to the job, either.  The B-L-H "X-plorer" might have made it, with a better prime mover.  The New Haven's RDC-based rigs ("Roger Williams", etc.) were very inflexible, consist-wise.  The Boeing and Grumman and Rohr attempts were doomed.  They didn't consult knowledgable railroaders before plungin into an unknown field.

The NYC RDC "jets" live on, methinks.  I saw one of the jet snowblowers in the Albany-Rensselaer (NY) Amtrak station yard a few years ago.  I never saw one in action.  I would surmise that they were awesome! 

Bill Hays

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:28 PM

All I know from some who were involved in using them was that the technical stuff didn't work or was otherwise cumbersome for railroad application.

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:57 PM
henry6
Too much of the automatic stuff didn't work...doors were a major problem
The doors were Amfleet doors, no? The SPVs were made after the 492 car Amfleet order. What other automatic stuff?

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:19 PM

aegrotatio

 Gee, 2.9 MPG (miles per gallon) per RDC is an order of magnitude better than Colorado Rail Car's 2 GPM (gallons per mile) rating.

 

aegrotatio

 Gee, 2.9 MPG (miles per gallon) per RDC is an order of magnitude better than Colorado Rail Car's 2 GPM (gallons per mile) rating.

 

Having owned a truck with a similar Detroit diesel and only one not two it sounds very possible as I consistently got about six miles per gallon or a little better depending on the terrain I encountered. The Detroit powerplant that was found under the RDCs were originally built for the oilfields to power the pumps that bring the oil up from beneath the ground. In fact there are probably hundreds of them performing that duty to this day, although many have been replaced by electric motors where power is readily available. They were quite reliable and often ran for three or four days before being shut down to check the oil and coolant then restarted.

In later years when the RDCs needed major work some of the operators turned to Cummins as the old Detroits had been all snapped up by the oil companies. The Cummins engines just never sounded the same but as long as they were under an RDC it did not matter to me, I was willing to go wherever the RDC took me. It would be interesting to see how the performance of these two engines compared when both were new.

Al - in - Stockton   

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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:09 PM

BNSFwatcher

How 'bout the New York Central "Beeliner" #M-497?  They put two jet engines on the roof and did 180+ mph, methinks!  I'll have to look it up!  Wish I'd been on board!

Bill Hays

Bill;

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/train_notes.html to  M-497 of NYC RR

 New York Central RDC3 #M497

The NYC was actively seeking to find a way to draw ridership back to rails back in the 1960s.
They invested heavily in three experiments:
1. The GM Aerotrain
2. The Xplorer
3. Testing whether the (then) present-day tracks could handle high-speed passenger traffic.

This is where the M497 comes into play. The B-36-H jet pod was installed to provide sufficient thrust to get a rail car moving at or above 180 mph for purposes of the test. This was the least expensive way to accomplish the goal. Wind tunnel tests were conducted at Case Western Reserve in Cleveland and the pair of jet engines were purchased on the surplus market from the good old USAF.
After the test, the engines were used for snow blower research, so the investment was well made. This was an engineering effort all the way. Some have erroneously labeled it as a PR stunt. The most important thing learned was that the tracks COULD accommodate high-speed travel without special preparation. So, the test proved just what was hoped.
After its moment of glory the M497 went back to Cleveland, where it was dismantled. The torque converters were reconnected and the seats restored. It returned to its Quotidian life as an NYC commuter car. After the tests, M497 spent it's last years as a pedestrian RDC3 running on the Hudson Line between Poughkeepsie and Harmon for Metro North.
As of a result of the Penn Central Merger (1968) M497 was renumbered No. 97, and renumbered again in 1969 as No. 98. It was maintained in Croton Harmon N.Y. and usually used on upper Harlem and Poughkeepsie runs. It was sold to Conrail in May 1976.
The ex-M497, ex No. 97 actually was signed over to MTA as No. 98 but never ran for MTA. The car was shopped and cannibalized and retired in Dec. 1977. After sitting ignominiously in the deadline surrounded by the weeds of Croton East yard for seven years, it was finally scrapped by Metro-North in 1984. - per Hank Morris

The New York Central's jet RDC RDC3 #M497, set the US speed record at 183.681 mph in 1966, in an experimental run between Butler, IN and Stryker, OH. The September issue of Smithsonian's Invention and Technology mag (right in the back) has more about the jet tests. The only practical result of this car was the jet snowblower now used in Buffalo.

So, here's the US rail speed records, as best as I can tell:

Link to photo:  http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=1750056&Quote=False

From: www.trainweborg/passengercars/

 

 


 

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Posted by aegrotatio on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:17 PM

 Gee, 2.9 MPG (miles per gallon) per RDC is an order of magnitude better than Colorado Rail Car's 2 GPM (gallons per mile) rating.

 

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