Phoebe VetActually, city center is exactly where the terminal should be. You then bring the suburban and rural riders in on local light rail or subway trains. Federally funded high speed rail is the major artery the trains should only stop at the center of large cities. State governments need to supply the intercity trains to the smaller cities and villages and local governments need to supply the capillaries to the suburbs and neighborhoods. All train stations should be served by local mass transit. Check out Grand Central, Penn Station in NYC, Union Station in DC, etc. Here in Charlotte we are in the process of building our new multimodal facility in city center.
Actually, city center is exactly where the terminal should be. You then bring the suburban and rural riders in on local light rail or subway trains.
Federally funded high speed rail is the major artery the trains should only stop at the center of large cities. State governments need to supply the intercity trains to the smaller cities and villages and local governments need to supply the capillaries to the suburbs and neighborhoods. All train stations should be served by local mass transit.
Check out Grand Central, Penn Station in NYC, Union Station in DC, etc. Here in Charlotte we are in the process of building our new multimodal facility in city center.
Consider for a moment the Amtrak stops at Newark, NJ, New Carrollton, MD, and Alexandria, VA that are there for a purpose. Suburban stops work.
Work is underway to finalize the Environmental Assessment (EA) required to utilize Federal funding for the Charlotte Gateway Station project.
FTA expects to issue a Finding of No Significant Impacts (FONSI) this spring
NCDOT hopes to advance the RFQ for a Master Developer for the Charlotte Gateway Station this year
Blue Streak: There is a fly in the ointment of your proposal. The Carolinian is 2 trains; one starting at each end each day. The Crescent is 4 trains. The trip each way takes 2 days. Perhaps the answer is another train running the same route as the Crescent but only from Atlanta to DC & back.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The above substituting of equipment works both ways. The beauty of this solution is that Amfleet I cars could be used for the overflow loads and that would not be too bad for a three hour trip on the train from Charlottesville to /from Wash. However I believe the equipment on the Carolinian is better than that.
The second is that no switching costs other than an extra hour engineer/conductor time (?) would be incurred in Charlotte as that is a crew change point and the required switching - placing cars could be done at the end or beginning of a shift. I don't know if they do the Carolinian turning now. Phoebee do you know?
I've had times when friends said they couldn't get a seat on the Cresent Wash - North and when I checked sets were available to Charlottesville but not further on so they flew (PERMANENTLT LOST PASSENGERS)
Phoebe Vet Harvey: I don't think your post was misleading, and that does seem to be what Bluestreak was suggesting. Though he might have been suggesting moving some cars from one train to the other. I was just pointing out a couple of political realities of which someone from out of state might not be aware.
Harvey:
I don't think your post was misleading, and that does seem to be what Bluestreak was suggesting. Though he might have been suggesting moving some cars from one train to the other.
I was just pointing out a couple of political realities of which someone from out of state might not be aware.
ASbsolutely do not reroute the Piedmont or Carolinian. My suggestion is from 6 Months ago. When the booking on the Cresent north of Charlotte are above the assigned seating capacity (this is the high passenger load on the Cresent) take one or more coaches from the Caolinian after it arrives in Charlotte, Clean and restock then connect them to the northbound Cresent. At the same time place the needed replacement car(s) on the southbound Cresent; when it arrives in Charlotte drop the cars and the northbound Carolinian pick them up and run the normal consist. This move will probably require the installation of a switch(s) to expedite the move.
Phoebe:: Has stimulus money started the building of the new Charlotte intermodal passenger station??
HarveyK400 I have no idea why it could possibly cost $313 billion for HSR between Dallas-Fort Worth and San Antonio unless Halliburton gets a no-bid contract from the Governor. By comparison, California is estimating just $40 billion for a 700 mile long HSR, 220 mph network. The Southeast Corridor may be a tad more between Washington and Jacksonville for the 220 mph corridor alternative. There aren't that many other full HSR corridors close to implementation. Illinois and Wisconsin are looking at improvements for 90-110 mph services that would take only half a billion each. So maybe the the first phase may be around $100 billion - just a guess.
I have no idea why it could possibly cost $313 billion for HSR between Dallas-Fort Worth and San Antonio unless Halliburton gets a no-bid contract from the Governor. By comparison, California is estimating just $40 billion for a 700 mile long HSR, 220 mph network. The Southeast Corridor may be a tad more between Washington and Jacksonville for the 220 mph corridor alternative. There aren't that many other full HSR corridors close to implementation. Illinois and Wisconsin are looking at improvements for 90-110 mph services that would take only half a billion each. So maybe the the first phase may be around $100 billion - just a guess.
The General Accounting Office (GAO) released recently a report of its audit of select proposed high speed rail projects in the U.S. The GAO is considered by experts to be one of the best audit organizations in the country, primarily because of its ruthless objectivity.
Amongst the projects that it reviewed is the status of high speed rail in Texas. It found that as of March 2009, Texas has taken no further action to establish a high speed rail system since the failed Texas TGV proposal. However, a grassroots organization of local elected officials and others is pursuing high speed rail in the Texas Triangle. It is important to note that the Texas Legislature has not sanction any high speed rail for the Lone Star State.
The Texas TGV, which was first proposed in 1982, would have provided high speed rail between Dallas/Fort Worth, Dallas/Fort Worth Airport, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. Service was to have commenced between DFW and Houston in 1998, with service to Austin and San Antonio beginning in 1999.
The project failed because the proponents could not raise sufficient funds in the private capital markets, and the legislature refused to fund the project, although it authorized the formation of the Texas High Speed Rail Authority (THSRA). The THSRA issued requests for proposals. Two of three applicants met the criteria. Texas TGV Corporation (Morrison Knudsen, Bombardier, Alstom, Credit Lyonnais, Banque IndoSuez, Merrill Lynch) was granted the franchise after evidential hearings were held on the franchise applications.
Southwest Airlines filed suit to block the project, but the Texas court of jurisdiction dismissed its lawsuit. Contrary to popular belief, Southwest Airlines was not the major reason the project fell over. The project never got beyond the environmental impact study phase.
The estimated cost of the project was $4 billion, with a projected ridership of 11.3 to 18 million by 2015. Since 1982 the CPI has increased 120.5 per cent, which means the $4 billion would be equal to $8.82 billion today. A better inflation indicator would be the construction cost deflator, which would be somewhat different than the CPI, but it is more difficult to get. In any case, it appears that $313 billion to build HSR in Texas, if that is what the DOT person said, even after allowing for an extension of the line to Little Rock and Tulsa, is not well founded.
The GAO also found that the estimated cost of the California High Speed Rail project as of July 2008 is $32.8 to $33.6 billion, which is considerably less than the $40 billion being thrown around by people who have not been able to review the primary source documents. The GAO had access to these documents.
Atlanta has nice plan for a multimodal station plan, too. I'm not holding my breath. Big news here is they are going to rename an HOV-2 lane to an HOT-3 lane and use the tolls to buy a few more busses and P&R lots. I can hardly stand the excitement!
NC and Charlotte are doing a smart thing! (IMHO...)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BT CPSO 266 Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful.
Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful.
HSR won't overlay well on existing fly/drive America. But, it will likely be part of a gradual change to living in cities (this is already happening), more transit to support that urban living, more dense suburbs and transit to support commuting, and a slowdown in the rate of sprawl. The increasing cost of energy is going to drive these changes.
So, you won't need train stations that look like an airport. Just train stations that look like train stations, with much of the access by local train and transit.
Our multimodal facility will be a station for Amtrak, CATS Commuter Rail, CATS street car, CATS buses, and Greyhound. CATS is the Charlotte Area Transit System, consisting of City Buses, Van Pools, Light Rail, Trolley, and coming soon, Commuter Rail and Street Cars.
The problem with putting it outside the city is that cities grow. My house was miles outside the city of Charlotte when it was built in 1978. Now it is inside the city, and not even near the city border. The current Amtrak station is on the opposite side of town and not convenient to get to. It would take a couple of bus transfers to get there, and neither the current light rail, nor any of the planned rail expansions go to it.
BT CPSO 266 Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful. Also what exactly is a mulitmodal facility?
Also what exactly is a mulitmodal facility?
If your local airport has rail service and the l-d buses call there too, that would be one example of a multimodal facility. In Trenton, NJ, Amtrak and NJ Transit commuter trains share the facility with a light-rail line and commuter buses. That is another example.
Maglev What is new is President Obama's anti-airline rhetoric: ""Imagine boarding a train in the center of a city," Obama urged Americans in the speech. "No racing to an airport and across the terminal, no delays, no sitting on the tarmac, no lost luggage, no taking off your shoes. Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 mph, walking only a few steps to public transportation, and ending up just blocks from your destination. Imagine what a great project that would be to rebuild America."Finally, we have a leader who recognizes the aesthetic and cultural importance of convenient, safe, comfortable, fast, and DIGNIFIED transportation.
What is new is President Obama's anti-airline rhetoric:
""Imagine boarding a train in the center of a city," Obama urged Americans in the speech. "No racing to an airport and across the terminal, no delays, no sitting on the tarmac, no lost luggage, no taking off your shoes. Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 mph, walking only a few steps to public transportation, and ending up just blocks from your destination. Imagine what a great project that would be to rebuild America."
I agree that it is a great thing that High-speed Trains can take us directly into cities. However, what if the populariy picks up and we need huge terminals like airports have. If the trains offer the same level of service as those in Europe and Asia they could become the prefered use over planes. What if someone wants to drive from a rural area to a major city to catch a train. I saying this could really catch on in America. If we want to have a network someday that goes coast to coast then we are going to need bigger hubs and the center of cities is not the place for them.
MaglevWhat is new is President Obama's anti-airline rhetoric: ""Imagine boarding a train in the center of a city," Obama urged Americans in the speech. "No racing to an airport and across the terminal, no delays, no sitting on the tarmac, no lost luggage, no taking off your shoes. Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 mph, walking only a few steps to public transportation, and ending up just blocks from your destination. Imagine what a great project that would be to rebuild America." Finally, we have a leader who recognizes the aesthetic and cultural importance of convenient, safe, comfortable, fast, and DIGNIFIED transportation.While downtown usually represent the largest concentration of travel markets for a major metropolitan area, the point has been made recently that suburban stops are a good thing. Obviously, it can avoid time-consuming back-tracking from the near side of a metropolitan area and also can provide convenience to the far side. Sam1 suggested the latter for San Antonio from Houston which might work well from Dallas-Fort Worth as Well. Another example would be to extend corridors past Chicago Union Station to O'Hare Airport using the existing and under-utilized run-through tracks.
Finally, we have a leader who recognizes the aesthetic and cultural importance of convenient, safe, comfortable, fast, and DIGNIFIED transportation.
While downtown usually represent the largest concentration of travel markets for a major metropolitan area, the point has been made recently that suburban stops are a good thing. Obviously, it can avoid time-consuming back-tracking from the near side of a metropolitan area and also can provide convenience to the far side. Sam1 suggested the latter for San Antonio from Houston which might work well from Dallas-Fort Worth as Well. Another example would be to extend corridors past Chicago Union Station to O'Hare Airport using the existing and under-utilized run-through tracks.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
ndbprr So if Texas alone is $313 Billion ...
So if Texas alone is $313 Billion ...
Sounds like this is what the highway investment needed for Texas to keep up. Sure that wasn't what he meant?
I think your logical conclusions are based on bad facts/assumptions in the first part of your "IF" statement.
ndbprr This is slower than the current service.
I don't think so..... check your facts again.
ndbprr I've tried keeping up with the current train on the drive to Springfield and you have to drive 85 -90 to do it
The max speed now is 79 mph. Are you saying you paced the train at 85-90?
ndbprrThis is not high speed rail, cost effective or of any value
Nobody, expect some goofy news folk, are claiming HSR. Most of what I've read, even by some goofy news folk, has been very clear that the $8B is for 90-110 mph max speeds. How do you know it's not cost effective? If the best estimates show good cost/benefit ratios compared to alternatives, then how is this bad?
None of the $8B precludes any future investment in higher speeds, in fact, it actually tills the ground for it. If you can get door to door trip times that are competitive with driving and get the freqency of operation up, then you can start working on upgrading the slower sections with true, high speed ROW.
Will this work? Probably - provided you pick the best candidates. An example: Phila to Harrisburg was upgraded from 80 mph max to 110 mph max. Trip times were reduced from 2:00 to 1:40. Frequency was already pretty decent on this route, but it was enhanced. Ridership increased by ~25% in two years.
This is from a CHicago Tribuine article:
"Chris Lippincott, spokesman for the Texas Department of Transportation, said his office was excited about advancing plans to build high-speed lines from San Antonio to Dallas and then up to Little Rock and Tulsa. But he added that the "nation's rail needs will exceed a single injection of money," citing estimates that just staying even with current level of congestion in his state will cost $313 billion over the next 20 years.Some say the investment is too small, Obama acknowledged. "But this is just a first step. We know this is going to be a long-term project," he said."
So if Texas alone is $313 Billion and let's assume that the average state cost is $20 billion fifty states would cost a minimum of one trillion dollars. Now if the cost is more like $100 billion per state that jumps the cost to five trillion dollars at today's costs. All the pigs better get to the trough fast to get on board this one. What's another five trillion in debt (or more likely far more)?
There is no way that the Carolinian will ever follow the route the Crescent does. The Carolinian is supported by funding from NC, and the route of the Crescent does not go through Raleigh, the state capitol. Notice that the two trains that NC funds do. In addition, the Carolinian serves several cities in NC that no other train does, and is the only train that goes from Charlotte and Raleigh to Richmond.
The Chicago Tribune published a chart of "time savings" for all the midwest destinations from Chicago. I tried to find it on the Trib web site and couldn't but the important FACT here is the best projected time savings over driving was the trip to St. Louis where the total savings was twenty minutes. I've tried keeping up with the current train on the drive to Springfield and you have to drive 85 -90 to do it. This is slower than the current service. All other destinations were ten minutes or LESS! This is not high speed rail, cost effective or of any value. It is pork and should not be allowed to proceed if that is all that can be gained (or lost) from it.
blue streak 1Phoebe VetIn the past week, I rode the Crescent between Charlotte and DC twice, the Regional between DC & Baltimore once, and the Acela between Baltimore and DC once. The Acela was the only one of the four that was not functionally sold out. It was pretty full, but it did have a few empty seats. On the other three Phoebe Vet: It constantly appears that the Cresent is always sold out Charlottelville - WASH. Until the new WASH - Lynchburg train is started I believe that my idea of rotating the Carolinian equipment onto the Cresent for CLT - WASH may have merrit. Of course AMTRAK has to wait for some Amfleet I's to be overhauled.I hope you aren't suggesting alternating the Carolinian as a way to get service to Lynchburg. With sufficient demand from the NEC to western Virginia, a train following the Crescent in both directions may work once equipment comes available. I urge using new tilting Acela cars, and it will take two sets due to the possible tight but unreliable turnaround at New York.The greater market and priority may be to put on a late morning departure from Charlotte arriving New York 12 hours later after #80 taking the Crescent route. Similarly, a late morning departure from New York could arrive in Charlotte before midnight. This too would be a candidate for Acela cars. A morning train out of Washington, DC to Atlanta seems feasible with early afternoon service at Raleigh and early evening service at Charlotte. An early morning return out of Atlanta would go back to Washington, DC. Given the low-level platforms, TALGO equipment would be another equipment possibility for existing and additional services from Washington, DC, Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta and south.
Phoebe VetIn the past week, I rode the Crescent between Charlotte and DC twice, the Regional between DC & Baltimore once, and the Acela between Baltimore and DC once. The Acela was the only one of the four that was not functionally sold out. It was pretty full, but it did have a few empty seats. On the other three
Phoebe Vet: It constantly appears that the Cresent is always sold out Charlottelville - WASH. Until the new WASH - Lynchburg train is started I believe that my idea of rotating the Carolinian equipment onto the Cresent for CLT - WASH may have merrit. Of course AMTRAK has to wait for some Amfleet I's to be overhauled.
I hope you aren't suggesting alternating the Carolinian as a way to get service to Lynchburg. With sufficient demand from the NEC to western Virginia, a train following the Crescent in both directions may work once equipment comes available. I urge using new tilting Acela cars, and it will take two sets due to the possible tight but unreliable turnaround at New York.
The greater market and priority may be to put on a late morning departure from Charlotte arriving New York 12 hours later after #80 taking the Crescent route. Similarly, a late morning departure from New York could arrive in Charlotte before midnight. This too would be a candidate for Acela cars.
A morning train out of Washington, DC to Atlanta seems feasible with early afternoon service at Raleigh and early evening service at Charlotte. An early morning return out of Atlanta would go back to Washington, DC. Given the low-level platforms, TALGO equipment would be another equipment possibility for existing and additional services from Washington, DC, Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta and south.
htgguy Harvey, is it fair to interpret what you are saying as the $8 billion being only a start on federal funding for a HSR system? If so, how much will the entire system cost? It's fair to discuss what it will cost. It's also fair to discuss what the ongoing operational cost will be. Who is going to subsidize the operation of HSR as long as it continues to operate? Whatever someone's views on fiscal responsibility of the federal government's fiscal responsibility over the last many years (I personally believe both parties have failed the citizens spectacularly) we have an obligation to think about how our kids are going to pay the interest on the debt we are handing over to them. Just because deficit spending and waste has become the pattern in our nation, that's no excuse to advocate for it to continue in the future. That's not change.
Harvey, is it fair to interpret what you are saying as the $8 billion being only a start on federal funding for a HSR system? If so, how much will the entire system cost?
It's fair to discuss what it will cost. It's also fair to discuss what the ongoing operational cost will be. Who is going to subsidize the operation of HSR as long as it continues to operate?
Whatever someone's views on fiscal responsibility of the federal government's fiscal responsibility over the last many years (I personally believe both parties have failed the citizens spectacularly) we have an obligation to think about how our kids are going to pay the interest on the debt we are handing over to them. Just because deficit spending and waste has become the pattern in our nation, that's no excuse to advocate for it to continue in the future. That's not change.
According the Obama's speech, etc, the $8B is a start. It's supposed to buy upgrades to a half dozen or so corridors to allow big chunks of 90-110 mph running. When, how, if there are futher upgrades to true HSR along these routes and what other routes might be funded and what the costs may be are anyone's guess right now, but I'd bet a lot depends on how well the $8B is spent.
As for operating subisdies, there have been some studies that suggest that upgraded corridors could/should/would cover their operating costs and then some. In fact, there have been some inklings that private companies may be "for profit" operators. Amtrak is not the pre-ordained operator. It wouldn't surprise me to see the improved services cover their operating costs, in general. The devil will definitely be in the details!
I suspect that what evolves out of this whole process will be an uniquely American version of passenger rail transportation. Not European HSR (TGV, ICE, AVE, etc.) and not Amtrak/VIA style routes overlaid on frt RRs, but some hybrid, with bits and pieces of everything.
(BTW, the deficit is not really being driven by discretionary spending. The federal budget is about 20% of GDP. Discretionary spending is other than military is about 3%. Check it out http://perotcharts.com/challenges/)
HarveyK400 First, the politician (=dirty rotten?) that spoke is going beyond words with money. True, $8 billion would not get improvements very far from Chicago; but this is stimulus money to get things moving until a plan is refined and a comprehensive program is implemented. One of the problems perpetuated with describing corridors as to and from major urban centers is that the intermediate city and suburban stations get overlooked. Service to these stations is crucial to success in consolidating travel from along the corridor on a train rather than run separate buses for each station pair. An Illinois survey a few years back showed a quarter of State-supported train passengers had suburban destinations or origins which was quite good, considering. This taxpayer is fed up too; but I didn't hear as much outcry about the high cost of a war that destroyed a nation to funnel pork to Halliburton in no-bid contracts as there was for the stimulus package with the rail component to build something useful. As for Chicago, Rep Emanuel was a carpet-bagger from the Clinton Administration; and Ray La Hood was a Republican from Downstate Illinois. Pres Obama came to Chicago for a job where he met his wife, a Chicago girl; and ran as an independent for State Representative. Valerie Jarrett is the only one with ties to Mayor Daley that might be suspect; but she has proven to be capable and clean. Vice-Pres Biden, an advocate for Amtrak, is from Delaware and Speaker Pelosi is from California; so there is some strong pressure for disbursement around the country.
First, the politician (=dirty rotten?) that spoke is going beyond words with money.
True, $8 billion would not get improvements very far from Chicago; but this is stimulus money to get things moving until a plan is refined and a comprehensive program is implemented.
One of the problems perpetuated with describing corridors as to and from major urban centers is that the intermediate city and suburban stations get overlooked. Service to these stations is crucial to success in consolidating travel from along the corridor on a train rather than run separate buses for each station pair. An Illinois survey a few years back showed a quarter of State-supported train passengers had suburban destinations or origins which was quite good, considering.
This taxpayer is fed up too; but I didn't hear as much outcry about the high cost of a war that destroyed a nation to funnel pork to Halliburton in no-bid contracts as there was for the stimulus package with the rail component to build something useful.
As for Chicago, Rep Emanuel was a carpet-bagger from the Clinton Administration; and Ray La Hood was a Republican from Downstate Illinois. Pres Obama came to Chicago for a job where he met his wife, a Chicago girl; and ran as an independent for State Representative. Valerie Jarrett is the only one with ties to Mayor Daley that might be suspect; but she has proven to be capable and clean. Vice-Pres Biden, an advocate for Amtrak, is from Delaware and Speaker Pelosi is from California; so there is some strong pressure for disbursement around the country.
Visit look4trains.com
High speed systems are, in fact, cobbled together with elements of existing lines, whether extensions to the original New Tokaido Trunk Line or the French TGV, German ICE, and most recently Spanish AVE. Impediments to high speed service were avoided where possible; but costs could weigh against improvements to avoid some existing restrictions, especially approaching major urban centers.
I would agree to a point that dedicated lines were needed to avoid the interference of slower freight and local passenger services; but the other side of the problem is that there was no room for high speed trains on the existing lines with the traffic that was being handled. Conversely, Acelas are at no disadvantage sharing tracks with slower trains because the volume of traffic is quite low, notwithstanding the impediment of pervasive curve restrictions. Without other trains sharing the cost of maintaining the infrastructure, I doubt the Acelas would be profitable bearing the full cost of the NEC.
ndbprr I see someone wants to return to fiscal restraint of the last three Republican administrations...lol. No. Someone wants to return to foscal responsibility, term limits and and the founding fathers idea of public service. Margaret Thatcher had it right. She said, "there is no amount of good that can;t be done with someone else's money. Until you run out of it".
I see someone wants to return to fiscal restraint of the last three Republican administrations...lol.
No. Someone wants to return to foscal responsibility, term limits and and the founding fathers idea of public service. Margaret Thatcher had it right. She said, "there is no amount of good that can;t be done with someone else's money. Until you run out of it".
blue streak 1 Phoebe VetIn the past week, I rode the Crescent between Charlotte and DC twice, the Regional between DC & Baltimore once, and the Acela between Baltimore and DC once. The Acela was the only one of the four that was not functionally sold out. It was pretty full, but it did have a few empty seats. On the other three Phoebe Vet: It constantly appears that the Cresent is always sold out Charlottelville - WASH. Until the new WASH - Lynchburg train is started I believe that my idea of rotating the Carolinian equipment onto the Cresent for CLT - WASH may have merrit. Of course AMTRAK has to wait for some Amfleet I's to be overhauled.
The Crescent probably sells out periodically between Charlottesville and Washington, but according to Amtrak's numbers it is not very often. For the first five months of FY09 the train, which saw a one per cent increase in the number of riders over the same period in FY08, had an average load factor of 46.6 per cent. This compares to an average load factor of 51.0 per cent during FY08. This is well below functionally sold out. The train lost 46.2 per cent more money per passenger mile during the first five months of FY09 than it did in FY08, although part of the increase was due to a change in Amtrak's accounting.
During the same period the Acela's saw an 11.5 decrease in the number of riders and a 10.4 per cent decrease in revenues. The average load factor declined from 61.9 per cent to 57.9 per cent, and the contribution per passenger mile declined 58.4 per cent, although the Acela's more than covered their operating expenses. The regional trains experienced a ridership decrease of 7.4 per cent that drove a reduction in revenues of 6.2 per cent. The contribution per passenger mile slipped into the red after having been in the black during FY08. Amtrak attributes the decline in ridership to the slumping economy and the significant drop in the price of gasoline as well as jet fuel.
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