oltmannd Up until a few years ago, Amtrak short turned a couple of coaches at Atlanta, running 5 north of Atlanta and 3 south. Same number of coaches used as running 4 all the way thru, but NS switch crew costs probably killed that. No reason you couldn't drop the sleepers at Atlanta, too. It's a day train south of Atlanta.
Up until a few years ago, Amtrak short turned a couple of coaches at Atlanta, running 5 north of Atlanta and 3 south. Same number of coaches used as running 4 all the way thru, but NS switch crew costs probably killed that. No reason you couldn't drop the sleepers at Atlanta, too. It's a day train south of Atlanta.
Oltmannd; After mowing the back 40 the last couple of nights have an idea of why all the (deadheading) extra equipment. New Orleans and Hialeah (Miami) are maintenance locations. In fact the stimulus package has upgrades to both facilities. At New Orleans the City trains have a scheduled 22hr layover, the Sunset either 19 hrs, or almost 3 days layover (quite a waste of equipment but may use City cars on Friday departures ); the Cresent 12 hrs. However I've observed several Cresent coaches and 1 sleeeper laying over at New Orleans over the daytime. So it appears that New Orleans is a rather large level 1 maintenance location. The same can be said about Miami as 6 - 10 cars are parked there except during the holiday rushes. In fact Miami may be a level 2 Maintenance area.
Sam1 The estimated cost of the project was $4 billion, with a projected ridership of 11.3 to 18 million by 2015. Since 1982 the CPI has increased 120.5 per cent, which means the $4 billion would be equal to $8.82 billion today. A better inflation indicator would be the construction cost deflator, which would be somewhat different than the CPI, but it is more difficult to get. Accordingly, I think the CPI is a good tool to make my point. It appears that $313 billion to build HSR in Texas, if that is what the DOT person said, even after allowing for an extension of the line to Little Rock and Tulsa, is not well founded. As of mid 2008, according to the GAO, the properly supported estimate for the California High Speed project was between $32.8 and $33.6 billion. The cost to develop high speed rail in the Texas Triangle, excluding extension of lines to Little Rock and Tulsa, would probably be more in line with these numbers.
The estimated cost of the project was $4 billion, with a projected ridership of 11.3 to 18 million by 2015. Since 1982 the CPI has increased 120.5 per cent, which means the $4 billion would be equal to $8.82 billion today. A better inflation indicator would be the construction cost deflator, which would be somewhat different than the CPI, but it is more difficult to get. Accordingly, I think the CPI is a good tool to make my point. It appears that $313 billion to build HSR in Texas, if that is what the DOT person said, even after allowing for an extension of the line to Little Rock and Tulsa, is not well founded.
As of mid 2008, according to the GAO, the properly supported estimate for the California High Speed project was between $32.8 and $33.6 billion. The cost to develop high speed rail in the Texas Triangle, excluding extension of lines to Little Rock and Tulsa, would probably be more in line with these numbers.
I take it you mean 31.3 billion not 313 billion for the Texas system?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
I agree $313 billion is way off way off. Conversely, your inflation-adjusted $8.8 billion may be a little light; but certainly a lot closer.
Could it be that $313 million is an estimate for 90-110mph services?
No, I would love to; but I heard about them. There also was a thread some months back that went into recuperated gas turbine power.
HarveyK400 I have no idea why it could possibly cost $313 billion for HSR between Dallas-Fort Worth and San Antonio unless Halliburton gets a no-bid contract from the Governor. By comparison, California is estimating just $40 billion for a 700 mile long HSR, 220 mph network. The Southeast Corridor may be a tad more between Washington and Jacksonville for the 220 mph corridor alternative. There aren't that many other full HSR corridors close to implementation. Illinois and Wisconsin are looking at improvements for 90-110 mph services that would take only half a billion each. So maybe the the first phase may be around $100 billion - just a guess.
I have no idea why it could possibly cost $313 billion for HSR between Dallas-Fort Worth and San Antonio unless Halliburton gets a no-bid contract from the Governor. By comparison, California is estimating just $40 billion for a 700 mile long HSR, 220 mph network. The Southeast Corridor may be a tad more between Washington and Jacksonville for the 220 mph corridor alternative. There aren't that many other full HSR corridors close to implementation. Illinois and Wisconsin are looking at improvements for 90-110 mph services that would take only half a billion each. So maybe the the first phase may be around $100 billion - just a guess.
The General Accounting Office (GAO) released recently a report of its audit of many of the proposed high speed rail projects in the U.S. The GAO is considered by many of its users to be one of the best audit organizations in the country, primarily because of its objectivity.
Amongst the projects that it reviewed is the status of high speed rail in Texas. It found that as of March 2009 Texas has taken no further action to establish a high speed rail system since the failed Texas TGV proposal. However, a grassroots organization of local elected officials and others is pursuing high speed rail in the Texas Triangle. However, the Texas Legislature has not sanction any high speed rail for the Lone Star State.
The Texas TGV, which was first proposed in 1982, would have provided high speed rail between Dallas/Fort Worth, including DFW Airport, to Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. Service was to have commenced between DFW and Houston in 1998, with service to Austin and San Antonio beginning in 1999.
The project failed because the proponents could not raise the required private capital, and the legislature refused to fund the project, although it authorized the formation of the Texas High Speed Rail Authority (THSRA). The THSRA issued requests for proposals. Two of three applicants met the criteria. Texas TGV Corporation (Morrison Knudsen, Bombardier, Alstom, Credit Lyonnais, Banque IndoSuez, Merrill Lynch as well as several others) was granted the franchise.
Southwest Airlines filed suit to block the project, but the Texas courts dismissed its lawsuit. Contrary to popular belief, Southwest Airlines was not the major reason the project fell over. The project never got beyond the environmental impact study phase because it could not convince potential lenders that the project would be successful.
A more realistic estimate would be that for the California High Speed project, which the GAO found to be between $32.8 and $33.6 billion in mid 2008. The $40 to $45 billion being tossed around by others does not appear to be based on realistic estimates.
Since there really aren't any American companies available, most purchases are from a foreign company that agrees to assemble them in the US. Our light rail, for example, was built by Siemens, a German company in a factory in California.
On the other hand if they want to just get updated versions of what they have now, I think GE makes the P42s.
Have you seen this turbine electric from Bombardier?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Oh, brother!
Ever hear of "Buy American"? What do you think we've been doing the past 30 years with any transit project using Federal money?
The $8B will come from the federal general fund, not project specific bonds. Maybe you are confused about this. ...or maybe I'm wasting perfectly good electrons.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Do you really think that a politician would vote to give any work to a Canadian firm with the state of the US economy? I said that the government would have to finance this and there will be all kinds of people trying to get a piece of the action but you still have to come back to the fact which no one is disputing that nobody has the money. The feds don't have it, the banks don't have it, the wealth producers don't have it and the Chinese said they aren't buying any more of our debt nor is anyone else. So the money doesn't exist and there is no way to generate it. If you are logical the only possible conclusions you can draw are either it won't happen or the eight billion dollars proposed is a payback. Take your choice.
Ouch. Also bidding for the HSL trains over here (but we'll probabley side with Alstom in the end). Besides one way around that is for the evil centralised Govt to designate a corridor; sort the planning out and then "back the project" with bonds; at the same time leaving the private firm to resource the trains, set the fares and run the timetable for a concession of say 99 years....
That way you get a corridor and the trains. The govt supplies the infrastructure and Private enterprise does what (occasionally) it is supposed to.
Add the ICE-3, the AVE-S102, and othe passenger and freight locomotives. Obviously not the most informed on rail issues which could affect his or her credibility on other issues that are brought up.
Your political rant not withstanding, Bombardier Transportation, the world’s largest company in the rail equipment manufacturing and servicing industry, and the people who built the Acela, will be thrilled to know that they are not qualified to build our high speed trains.
oltmannd Bombardier has said they're interested. Good enough?
Bombardier has said they're interested. Good enough?
No. bombardier has very little experience with high horsepower electric propulsion required. I have no doubt that several companies would line up to receive federal funds to produce something and someone will have to provide the equipment. The political landscape really needs to be considered in whether this has any chance of occuring. The magnitude of this is such that private companies can not make this happen. It will require separate right of way obtained through eminent domain. The real estate alone is worth a fortune. Private companies are hanging on by their finger nails and no one could obtain the kind of financing this will take (and it isn't available). When push comes to shove do you really think the government (insert most hated political party here) will pony up the billions (probably trillions) or give it to people to retain their homes? Every day there is a new proposal for some grand puiblic works project but there isn't any money unless the feds just print it and distribute it which appears to be what is intended for the three trillion in projects already suggested.. That will lead to run away inflation within five years and the economists I have talked to think as early as seven months from now. Rather than mention the President in the 70's we had 20% inflation and 20% interest rates. Do you have any idea of what that would do to the cost? I am in total agreement that the only entity that could pull this off is the federal government but now is not the time because of the banking, housing, unemployment, earmarks, lack of financial acumen on the [part of politicians and a host of other reasons. This one will never get Congressional approval particularly since there are only three states that will benefit from it unless it is loaded with more pork which the public has had enough of in my opinion.
blue streak 1 Oltmannd: That was fairly much a proposal I made several years ago to AMTRAK but was put down for 1. No first class service to NRL. 2 Cost too much (I have my doubts). Actually during the mail contract the cars were turned on the shorter distance to the belt line wye (don't know if the wye tracks are useable now).Also cars were stored there because the pocket was still used at Atlantic Steel (now gone).
Oltmannd: That was fairly much a proposal I made several years ago to AMTRAK but was put down for 1. No first class service to NRL. 2 Cost too much (I have my doubts). Actually during the mail contract the cars were turned on the shorter distance to the belt line wye (don't know if the wye tracks are useable now).Also cars were stored there because the pocket was still used at Atlantic Steel (now gone).
I don't know about the wye at the Belt line, either, but Howells would be simple.
I, too, would have a hard time believing that it "costs too much". Lack of first class service to NOL? Compared to the cost to own and operate four sleepers and two diners? Gee, what a deal breaker!
ndbprrIf GE or Siemens announced it I would be interested but not a politician and that is reality to me.
blue streak 1When SOU ran the Cresent several coaches and sleepers were turned in WASH. All extra sections that SOU ran always ran ATL - WASH only.
Build the train:
Loco 1
Loco 2
baggage
thru coaches 1-3
lounge
diner
Atlanta coaches 1-2
Atlanta sleepers 1-2
At Atlanta, Loco 1 cuts away.
Cut train between lounge and diner.
Loco 2, baggage, 3 coaches and lounge head south.
Loco 1 grabs rear end left behind (diner, 2 coaches, 2 sleepers), turns it on Howell Wye using inbound crew and sets it on pocket track at station for servicing for that night's train. (pocket track already exists and is used on those days when the whole Crescent short-turns acc't track work to the south)
This saves two locomotives, two diners and two sleepers. QED
Paul:
Your post and mine crossed in the mail. I sent it before yours was up. Since you made my point, (and more diplomatically, I might add) I wouldn't have sent mine if I had seen yours.
Train-only zone
ndbprr I'm sorry I am wrong. I thought he was the Senator from Chicago, bought his house at a sweetheart price form Tony Rezko, pals around with a guy who killed cops and wanted to bomb the US Capital, has twelve or more millionaire Chicago pols as his advisors in DC, His wife had a $100,000 year job at the University of Chicago raised to $315,000 when he became Senator and was not replaced when she left and has two book deals in the last two years worth four million dollars. You are right all lies meant to discredit him. I should have known.
I'm sorry I am wrong. I thought he was the Senator from Chicago, bought his house at a sweetheart price form Tony Rezko, pals around with a guy who killed cops and wanted to bomb the US Capital, has twelve or more millionaire Chicago pols as his advisors in DC, His wife had a $100,000 year job at the University of Chicago raised to $315,000 when he became Senator and was not replaced when she left and has two book deals in the last two years worth four million dollars. You are right all lies meant to discredit him. I should have known.
You forgot "Was born in Kenya", "Forced Hawaii to issue him a false birth certificate", and "Is a secret member of an Al Qaeda sleeper cell".
The rest of us are talking about trains.
Are you TRYING to get this thread locked?
Can we leave partisan politics out of passenger train advocacy?
We can be mad with George Bush for his connections to the oil industry or whatever, and we can be mad at Barrack Obama for his connections to the principals of the Weather Underground. But at the end of the day, this train thing will sink or swim based on whether enough people ride it in relation to the money it costs to build it.
I have my personal opinions about President Obama and about his predecessor Mr. Bush and his predecessors before that, but I don't want to hear any name calling from the Right and I don't want to hear any name calling from the Left either, and I would like to be able to discuss pros as well as cons (yes their are cons to passenger rail, it isn't all sweet goodness as some people think, but their are ways to discuss the downside in a civil manner) of rail proposals on their merits.
Phoebe Vet Blue Streak: There is a fly in the ointment of your proposal. The Carolinian is 2 trains; one starting at each end each day. The Crescent is 4 trains. The trip each way takes 2 days. Perhaps the answer is another train running the same route as the Crescent but only from Atlanta to DC & back.
Blue Streak: There is a fly in the ointment of your proposal. The Carolinian is 2 trains; one starting at each end each day. The Crescent is 4 trains. The trip each way takes 2 days. Perhaps the answer is another train running the same route as the Crescent but only from Atlanta to DC & back.
Actuall if you think about it only when there is demand will cars be added to the southbound Cresent in either NYP or WASH (since motors are changed to P-40s,42s no additional time taken for brake tests). They would be removed in Charlotte. At no time would the cars proceed on southbound except maybe at Mardi Gras time. When AMTRAK was carrying mail cars the southbound Cresent would have them removed in Atlanta along with a couple coaches and that night the northbound Cresent would have the coaches and mail cars added. When ridding the Cresent to New Orleans the last two or three coaches have been closed off for lack of passengers beyand Birmingham. Remember SOU RR only operated the Southern Cresent 3 times a week ATL - NRL. AMTRAK started the daily run when they took over.
Another possibility is that coaches could be added in WASH and taken off either at Charlottesville, Lynchburg, or Greensboro. Then the northbound could pick up those cars the same night. That would require either NS doing the switching or AMTRAK (either by the train itself or a parked switcher) if the track layout would allow.That way only the dropping station - WASH segment would have the extra seats. When SOU ran the Cresent several coaches and sleepers were turned in WASH. All extra sections that SOU ran always ran ATL - WASH only.
If the proposed Lynchburg extension is implemented the lack of seats north may go away. Then again it may not if there is more demand.
Harvey:
The tracks marked Trolley line are, in fact, the Blue Line light rail. The trolley has been running for several years before the light rail was built. Notice that the light rail line runs through the Charlotte Convention Center.
Epicenter is still under construction. It is connected to the Overstreet Mall. The lower floors are occupied. Dale Earnhardt Jr owns a bar called Whiskey River in that building.
http://www.whiskyrivercharlotte.com/index.php
The white arrow refered to the original drawing of the Gateway Station. The Transit Center is a sheltered CATS bus terminal. It is NOT the new Gateway terminal. The new Gateway Station is about 3 blocks north east of the mall diagram, as is Bank of America Stadium, home of the Carolina Panthers. Both are easily reached from I-77 and I-277. Graham, Brevard, College, and Church streets all have exits from I-277 about 1 block left of the mall picture. There is a light rail station over Trade Street with walk off connections directly to the Arena, the Transit Center, and the Bank of America parking deck. I do not know whether or not it will be connected to Epicenter when it is completed.
This image was taken out the window of a light rail train as it sat in that station. Trade Street is shown below, the building under construction to the left of Trade St is Epicenter, the building to the right is the Bank of America parking garage. The tallest building in the background is the 60 story Bank of America headquarters. The transit center is behind and to the left. The Time Warner Arena, where the Charlotte Bobcats play is behind and to the right. You can get off the light rail and walk all the way to the Bank of America headquarters without going out doors.
Obama is not a product of the Chicago Democratic Machine. That outright partisan lie has been perpetuated by the Republican National Committee to discredit Obama both before and after the election, and to demean his efforts, in this case, to improve intercity rail passenger service. His predecessor wanted to dismantle Amtrak; so, if you're a HSR advocate, give him a break.
Chicago may not have anywhere near as many Amtrak trains as any city on the NEC; but it does have the most routes. The short-term objective is to improve corridors for 90-110 mph service to be more competitive with driving. This means stops at suburban and intermediate cities and towns. Some corridors, such as Chicago-Saint Louis, could have extended rural sections grade separated for 150 mph running with few curve easements.
Maybe there is some payback, not to the Chicago Machine, but to the Midwest and the rest of the country that has waited and supported improvements to the NEC in the past as an acknowledged priority.
I see the "trolley line" and the transit center at the bottom, southeast side, of the map; but no double arrow for the NS tracks.
The Overstreet Mall is great, taking a page from Minneapolis and other cities; but the Blue Line is farther away than the parking which is given a preferred status in the development. Chicago isn't any better, lining the Loop L with parking garages rather than buildings with direct entrances from the stations, and terminating our Blue Line under the parking garage at O'Hare Airport rather than at the airline terminals.
Furthermore, there seems to be no physical connection between the transit center and the Overstreet Mall. Apparently one must walk a block on the street and around the EpiCenter to an entrance to the Overstreet Mall on College Street.
In all this do not lose sight of the fact that Obama is a product of the Chicago Democratic machine and has surrounded himself with people from Chicago. Announcing Chicago as the starting point has nothing to do with trains or high speed rail. I will happily eat my words but it appears to me to be a payback and will not happen.
In that drawing, "UP" is aproximately East.
That big two headed white arrow is the rail ROW which already exists.
It is a preliminary drawing not the final design. It will actually be larger, and will probably include a maint facility for the CATS commuter rail. There is a glass canopy over the train boarding area.
Charlotte is trying to reduce the number of people who come to city center by car, Center city parking is all privately owned or paid. There are free park and rides spread around the city at bus stops and light rail stations. The Blue Line light rail has a stop at an entrance to the Overstreet Mall, which uses a series of elevated closed in walkways to connect buildings all over city center.
Charlotte Gateway Station will incorporate various modes of land-based passenger transportation on two blocks, with the main station and office complex being located beside Norfolk Southern's major north-south rail line. The station and office complex will be comprised of:
Additionally, Charlotte Gateway Station will include:
oltmanndBT CPSO 266 Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful. HSR won't overlay well on existing fly/drive America. But, it will likely be part of a gradual change to living in cities (this is already happening), more transit to support that urban living, more dense suburbs and transit to support commuting, and a slowdown in the rate of sprawl. The increasing cost of energy is going to drive these changes. So, you won't need train stations that look like an airport. Just train stations that look like train stations, with much of the access by local train and transit.
BT CPSO 266 Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful.
Yes, but if you are going to have people taking the train halfway across the country they need some place to park their cars or if someone gives them a ride to the station it's going to be hard to get to because of the traffic. You can have the major stations outside the city for the intercity train and take a local light rail into the city to smaller stations. I am just saying if High-speed Rail will become a popular as flying we need to make room and also need to focus on building new right-of-ways for the intercity trains if they will be truly successful.
HSR won't overlay well on existing fly/drive America. But, it will likely be part of a gradual change to living in cities (this is already happening), more transit to support that urban living, more dense suburbs and transit to support commuting, and a slowdown in the rate of sprawl. The increasing cost of energy is going to drive these changes.
So, you won't need train stations that look like an airport. Just train stations that look like train stations, with much of the access by local train and transit.
I agree that transit should converge on an airport or train station to provide an alternative to the automobile and the cost in land and facilities for storing automobiles. However, people live in an auto-centric world, often without transit within walking distance, because the transit system could not keep up with urban sprawl. Parking and protected curb-side drop-off and pick-up are things that generally are done well at outlying airports; but not so well with carriageways converted for auto use for downtown railroad stations. If you have a historic train station, it may be a good thing to save it; but convenient intermodal transfers are key as its primary function and must take precedence.
Thanks for the drawing of the Charlotte multi-modal terminal.
Now what is that Graham Drop-off area? That cant be for transit buses, taxis, or kiss-n-ride? And where is the LRT? Doesn't the wind blow and rain fall - I know you get more rain than Chicago?
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