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HarveyK400 IThe manpower no longer may be there; but railroads have spent a lot on switch heaters. Trains freezing up in Chicago? Who wouldn't make sure the heat was on? Surely there is a carman or hostler at the terminal that checks these things and a supervisor making sure the job was done. HEP was supposed to avoid losing both the yard and the cars like in 1977; and that was on the direct order of Peoples Gas.
IThe manpower no longer may be there; but railroads have spent a lot on switch heaters.
Trains freezing up in Chicago? Who wouldn't make sure the heat was on? Surely there is a carman or hostler at the terminal that checks these things and a supervisor making sure the job was done. HEP was supposed to avoid losing both the yard and the cars like in 1977; and that was on the direct order of Peoples Gas.
You, in effect, have answered your own question: winter weather (anykind of weather for that matter) and train operation is more than an automatic switch heater. Plus today's "people" are clustred at major terminals rather out "along the pike". Yes, cars today operate from HEP whereas yesterday's cars layed up in yards with steam pipes and house power if needed (although HEP may be delivered as house power in some yards).
I also have another thought on "people". Years ago (God! how I hate to say that so often!), say at least before 1960, people had a forehand knowledge or railroads and railroading; it was a major part of life in the US. Kids would come in from the hinterlands to work on the railroad they watched from the hometown property or which the interfaced with at the local depot; the more urban were similarly exposed the the operations of the railroad through town from the morning and evening commuter rush to the local peddler leaving cars on the team track or freight house siding to the mainline varnish and merchandise freights that whoooshed through each daily. Both the rural and urban resident could confront the railroad face to face through the station agent, the local's crew, the tower operator, or the regular crews on the passenger trains. So people came to the railroad with a knowledge of what the railroad was all about. I have often talked with railroaders of today who had no idea what the railroad was until the saw a job listing and signed on. This could also be the difference between today's railroaders and those of yesterday. Not a slap in the face difference (that even I have inferred, I guess) but rather a real difference based on culture and experience.
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I just don't get it despite eveythiing that's been written about train weather delays.
The manpower no longer may be there; but railroads have spent a lot on switch heaters.
It's shameful that a little snow and cold could upset an operation that has been around as long as Amtrak.
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"It does make sense. If the westbound Builder terminates in the Twin Cities, its equipment and personnel are available to cover the next eastbound departure from the Twin Cities, which would otherwise need to be cancelled. If so, this would reflect a decision by Amtrak to protect the Chicago-Minneapolis regional traffic. I'm not, of course, aware of Amtrak's rationale for this particular cancellation. It's possible that the line was entirely blocked somewhere west of the Twin Cities, since this has historically been one of the most difficult main lines to keep in operation in severe winter weather (army of workers or no)."
tomikawaTT
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When it comes to winter weather, good old Mother Nature (red of tooth and claw...) holds all the trump cards. Railroad literature is replete with blizzard-buried passenger trains, avalanches, people stranded in the boondocks freezing to death, or just being rescued in the nick of time by other people who had to plow out, shovel out or even partially rebuild the line to get through….
TV news coverage and interviews who are, "Gonna sue somebody as soon as I see my lawyer." Somehow, it never occurs to them that IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CARRY ON REGARDLESS!
beaulieu
Joined on 12-29-2001
NW Wisconsin
Posts 1,780
The railroads provided the service required by the shippers, holiday or not. Both BNSF and CN maintained service to the pellet plants on the Mesabi Range on Christmas Day since these plants work through the holiday. But if the customer doesn't work on the holiday what reason should the railroad provide a service the customer doesn't need?
In all the rhetoric about devoted workers, self-serving managers, blah, blah, blah, I hardly noticed any mention of the most basic fact...
When it comes to winter weather, good old Mother Nature (red of tooth and claw...) holds all the trump cards. Railroad literature is replete with blizzard-buried passenger trains, avalanches, people stranded in the boondocks freezing to death, or just being rescued in the nick of time by other people who had to plow out, shovel out or even partially rebuild the line to get through.
Fast-forward to the present. A situation that would hardly have rated page five mention half a century ago now gets banner headlines, extended TV news coverage and interviews with mentally deficient travelers who are, "Gonna sue somebody as soon as I see my lawyer." Somehow, it never occurs to them that IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CARRY ON REGARDLESS!
Until somebody takes up the science fiction community on a network of high-velocity capsules in underground/underwater tubes transportation in wintertime will remain at the mercy of the weather - whether or not we like it.
Chuck
henry6 Of course there is no one reason for these problems. Amtrak doesn't own the track but have contracted with the "host" railroads so they are at the mercy of the operating philosophies of these roads. But look at the "holiday schedules" put out by NS, CPR, CSX, etc. with the closing of yards, reduction of trains, combining of dispatcher tricks and districts, The whole philosophy of the urgency of the product of transportation is not what it was to the railroad before 1960. And yes, there are problems of not having equipment for return services when a train doesn't achieve its end terminal: unlike the railroads before Amtrak, there aren't yards full of passenger cars and engine houses with spare engines at every division point. Amtrak has never been funded for being what it has achieved. I just hope that I don't have too much faith in Joe Boardman in making some necessary changes in the attitudes of politicians and the businessmen who run the railroads to make Amtrak viable, safe, and reliable transportation.
Of course there is no one reason for these problems. Amtrak doesn't own the track but have contracted with the "host" railroads so they are at the mercy of the operating philosophies of these roads. But look at the "holiday schedules" put out by NS, CPR, CSX, etc. with the closing of yards, reduction of trains, combining of dispatcher tricks and districts, The whole philosophy of the urgency of the product of transportation is not what it was to the railroad before 1960. And yes, there are problems of not having equipment for return services when a train doesn't achieve its end terminal: unlike the railroads before Amtrak, there aren't yards full of passenger cars and engine houses with spare engines at every division point. Amtrak has never been funded for being what it has achieved. I just hope that I don't have too much faith in Joe Boardman in making some necessary changes in the attitudes of politicians and the businessmen who run the railroads to make Amtrak viable, safe, and reliable transportation.
Dakguy201 Falcon48 Isn't there another issue with Amtrak's recent cancellations? As I understand the situation this week, the problem wasn't so much that the trains couldn't get through, but that the weather conditions would delay the trains to the point where the equipment wouldn't be available for their next trips. No, that does not make sense. To take a simple example, if a westbound Empire Builder is terminated in the Twin Cities, that equipment is never available for its next scheduled assignment out of Seattle.
Falcon48 Isn't there another issue with Amtrak's recent cancellations? As I understand the situation this week, the problem wasn't so much that the trains couldn't get through, but that the weather conditions would delay the trains to the point where the equipment wouldn't be available for their next trips.
Isn't there another issue with Amtrak's recent cancellations? As I understand the situation this week, the problem wasn't so much that the trains couldn't get through, but that the weather conditions would delay the trains to the point where the equipment wouldn't be available for their next trips.
No, that does not make sense. To take a simple example, if a westbound Empire Builder is terminated in the Twin Cities, that equipment is never available for its next scheduled assignment out of Seattle.
Falcon48 henry6 Paul Milenkovic All of those things require manpower that is not currently employed by the carriers. The manpower that is employed is doing everything within their power to keep the railroad running as it is. No one is saying that the current manpower is not doing their jobs. The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work. It has already been commented upon that railroads have greatly reduced their staffing levels. It goes beyond manpower. Today's railroads are run comletely different than those of even the 70's and 80's. You have fewer, longer trains for the most part; remotely operated interlockings; no rear end crews and definetly smaller crews; no track gangs assigned to 5-10 mile stretches but larger expanses of line; cost cutting measures of no trains on holidays (double time and a half pay?); limited overtime; the railroad serves the bottom line rather than customers (tell them they can wait if they ask); just like other money men, higher up management (investment bankers, CPA's, etc.) looks at the work as M-F with bankers hours. In some respects they are right: today's modern plant don't need all those people because there is no need to be full operation 24/7 except in very rare instances. Any opportunity to trim operations (i.e. reduce hours of operation, reduce manpower costs), the do so. And if the need arises for greater demand, then it will have to wait until Monday morning or the next time the board meets to be discussed. Yeah, the manpower isn't there, but in too many cases, neither is the railroad company. Isn't there another issue with Amtrak's recent cancellations? As I understand the situation this week, the problem wasn't so much that the trains couldn't get through, but that the weather conditions would delay the trains to the point where the equipment wouldn't be available for their next trips. If that's true (and I'm not positive that it is), then it is more a product of Amtrak's equipment woes than of the host railroad's inability to keep the railroad open. By the way, I seriously question the notion in some of the postings that railroads are willing to allow a main line to be closed down by weather to save money on the manpower and other resources needed to keep it open. The first priority of any major railroad is to keep the trains running. Whatever resources might be saved by allowing the pipeline to be shut off will be offset many times over by lost revenues and the costs of the recovery once the trains start moving again. You see this philosophy at work in derailments, where the first priority after safety issues are addressed is to get the trains moving again, even if it means pushing the derailed cars down an embankment. The simple fact is that there are sometimes weather conditions that go beyond the ability of mere mortals to deal with. Recall that, in 1949 or thereabouts, when railroads still had armies of employees, the UP mainline was shut down by snow for the better part of week, and the City of San Francisco was stranded for days in the middle of nowhere..
henry6 Paul Milenkovic All of those things require manpower that is not currently employed by the carriers. The manpower that is employed is doing everything within their power to keep the railroad running as it is. No one is saying that the current manpower is not doing their jobs. The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work. It has already been commented upon that railroads have greatly reduced their staffing levels. It goes beyond manpower. Today's railroads are run comletely different than those of even the 70's and 80's. You have fewer, longer trains for the most part; remotely operated interlockings; no rear end crews and definetly smaller crews; no track gangs assigned to 5-10 mile stretches but larger expanses of line; cost cutting measures of no trains on holidays (double time and a half pay?); limited overtime; the railroad serves the bottom line rather than customers (tell them they can wait if they ask); just like other money men, higher up management (investment bankers, CPA's, etc.) looks at the work as M-F with bankers hours. In some respects they are right: today's modern plant don't need all those people because there is no need to be full operation 24/7 except in very rare instances. Any opportunity to trim operations (i.e. reduce hours of operation, reduce manpower costs), the do so. And if the need arises for greater demand, then it will have to wait until Monday morning or the next time the board meets to be discussed. Yeah, the manpower isn't there, but in too many cases, neither is the railroad company.
Paul Milenkovic All of those things require manpower that is not currently employed by the carriers. The manpower that is employed is doing everything within their power to keep the railroad running as it is. No one is saying that the current manpower is not doing their jobs. The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work. It has already been commented upon that railroads have greatly reduced their staffing levels.
All of those things require manpower that is not currently employed by the carriers. The manpower that is employed is doing everything within their power to keep the railroad running as it is.
No one is saying that the current manpower is not doing their jobs. The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work. It has already been commented upon that railroads have greatly reduced their staffing levels.
It goes beyond manpower. Today's railroads are run comletely different than those of even the 70's and 80's. You have fewer, longer trains for the most part; remotely operated interlockings; no rear end crews and definetly smaller crews; no track gangs assigned to 5-10 mile stretches but larger expanses of line; cost cutting measures of no trains on holidays (double time and a half pay?); limited overtime; the railroad serves the bottom line rather than customers (tell them they can wait if they ask); just like other money men, higher up management (investment bankers, CPA's, etc.) looks at the work as M-F with bankers hours. In some respects they are right: today's modern plant don't need all those people because there is no need to be full operation 24/7 except in very rare instances. Any opportunity to trim operations (i.e. reduce hours of operation, reduce manpower costs), the do so. And if the need arises for greater demand, then it will have to wait until Monday morning or the next time the board meets to be discussed. Yeah, the manpower isn't there, but in too many cases, neither is the railroad company.
By the way, I seriously question the notion in some of the postings that railroads are willing to allow a main line to be closed down by weather to save money on the manpower and other resources needed to keep it open. The first priority of any major railroad is to keep the trains running. Whatever resources might be saved by allowing the pipeline to be shut off will be offset many times over by lost revenues and the costs of the recovery once the trains start moving again. You see this philosophy at work in derailments, where the first priority after safety issues are addressed is to get the trains moving again, even if it means pushing the derailed cars down an embankment. The simple fact is that there are sometimes weather conditions that go beyond the ability of mere mortals to deal with. Recall that, in 1949 or thereabouts, when railroads still had armies of employees, the UP mainline was shut down by snow for the better part of week, and the City of San Francisco was stranded for days in the middle of nowhere..
Amtrak has a slow order when winds get over 60 mph. I found that out on Southwest Chief two years ago. We were going thru Kansas and I'd wake up and notice the train was barely moving or even stopped. I asked my sleeper attendant the next day and he said tornados were in the area and when wind gets too high, Amtrak has to slow down. Possibly because the Superliner double decker cars could flip over more easily.
I know I rode thru some terrible rainstorms years ago with my parents, but I never saw any signs of slowing down, but that was before Amtrak, when the passenger trains were run by the host railroads.
From Amtrak's website:
Temporary disruptions of Amtrak services are posted on this page. These Service Alerts tend to be of limited duration and are the result of unforeseen events, such as severe weather."
As of 1:20 pm CST 12/24/08 there are no Service Alerts posted to this webpage. Absolutely none! However, if you inquire about the scheduled arrival of a specific train that was canceled short of its destination, such as yesterday's westbound Empire Builder, you will get a "service disruption, contact us by telephone message". Another inquiry would reveal that the eastbound Empire Builder is expected to be in Chicago more than 8 hours late.
Our Cascades are apparently not running. I wish there were more details in Boardman's press release. The weather system passing through today is bringing rain, and Northwest snowmelt wll now be a problem for a little while...
I thank our passengers for their patience and in those cases where they don't understand why they are being so badly delayed - I appreciate that, too. I understand that our passengers want to get home to their loved ones for Christmas and the holidays.
I know that winter is not an unusual phenomenon, but this has been an unusually severe and widespread dose of subzero temperatures combined with rare heavy snowfalls in the Pacific Northwest and high winds across the northern tier of states. This confluence of events has played havoc with our train equipment, including frozen water systems and snow-packed locomotives, and it has caused problems on the rail lines themselves.
We will continue to use trains and substitute buses to get people to their destinations where it is feasible and safe. Where there is risk, we will err on the side of caution.
I'm in touch with our operations people throughout the affected areas and will continue to pay close attention until the railroad is back to fully normal operations.
Meanwhile, I apologize for the inconvenience to so many of our customers.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Every year, winter catches Amtrak by surprise.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/12/amtrak-passengers-stranded-at-union-station.html
I don't mean to diminish the dedication of today's employees. And yes, getting to work today does revolve around the highway system's avaialblity. My point was that it is just so different a world, upstairs and downstairs as well as away from the railroad. And as is also indicated, the U.S. Mail was a contributing factor, but was part of the 24/7 committment of the railroad to do it's job.
I think all the discussion about reduced manpower, profit motive, etc. being the reasons that passenger trains no longer run in inclement weather misses the main reason.
Passenger trains used to carry the US MAIL and the mail had to go through. "Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds."
The passenger trains used to run regardless of the weather because of the mail contracts coupled with a proud tradition that all railroaders (from Pres. to section hand) shared. Passenger trains were the very symbol of the railroads reliability and dedication to service not the unwanted illegitimate step children that they are today.
Mark
For BNSF they have a few choke points in the Washington state area.
Stevens pass line can get buried in heavy snow and the crews can have a hard time keeping up. There was heavy wind and heavy snow up there earlier this week. Amtrak probably got stuck. Not to mention getting to and from Chicago.
The Snoqualmie line starting out of Tacoma and running to Ellensburg while not used by Amtrak can get heavy snow as well. It was really bad up there last week according to the WSDOT pass reports. There are alot of narrow gorges and really remote access areas on this line. I've heard some good stories from crews about how deep the snow can get on this line.
Amtrak out of Portland and running east to Spokane to catch the Seattle segment of the Empire Builder can be impacted by high winds and heavy snow and ice. Being that is a really exposed to the element piece of track and the temperature was in the minus column all the time in the SE part of the state I suspect track conditions were not all that favorable. Portland was also having trouble with snow and ice last week. This can lead to no crews being able to report to work and vans like the one I drove for Crew Shuttle services (GMC Safari with AWD + studded tires) having trouble getting around.
Going south out of Portland I read there was a derailment along the route. This can cause a nightmare.
The northwest due to geographic reasons does not have the ability to expand capacity in some areas without significant cost. So you get stuck if something goes really bad.
henry6 What many don't understand today is that into the mid 20th century you had a job, worked for a company, and there was a mutual agreement/comittment that you and the company were working toward the same goal: providing the service or product the company proffered in the marketplace. Therefore whatever it took to do the job was expected by both sides. It had nothing to do with living such and such a distance, whether you walked to work or flew, you were expected to be available and perform and you felt you had the obligation to be available and perform.
What many don't understand today is that into the mid 20th century you had a job, worked for a company, and there was a mutual agreement/comittment that you and the company were working toward the same goal: providing the service or product the company proffered in the marketplace. Therefore whatever it took to do the job was expected by both sides. It had nothing to do with living such and such a distance, whether you walked to work or flew, you were expected to be available and perform and you felt you had the obligation to be available and perform.
And rail employees today, have that same level of commitment for doing their job. They accept calls to work in all forms of bad weather and make every possible effort to report on time for the assignments. However, in today's world all levels of commitment revolve around the ability of the highway system to permit one to get to the desired destination. When one does not own their own snow plow and salt truck getting to ones on duty point can be a matter beyond the ability of mere mortal man. Getting train crews from their on duty points to trains at outlying points in such weather requires the use of trains that are running as normally all the contract carriage outfits declare a snow emergency at the sign of the first flake and shut their operations down in the interest of the S word, irrespective of the actual road conditions.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One thing that I like about trains in bad weather, another train is highly unlikely to broadside your train due to icy conditions.
I'm travelling to the NY Metropolitan area this Christmas via Amtrak, NJ Transit, and Metro-North.
I love that this week's horrible weather is not factoring into my travel worries. Will it affect the schedule? Sure! Will it endanger my family's lives? Relative to auto travel, it sure will not!
What many don't understand today is that into the mid 20th century you had a job, worked for a company, and there was a mutual agreement/comittment that you and the company were working toward the same goal: providing the service or product the company proffered in the marketplace. Therefore whatever it took to do the job was expected by both sides. It had nothing to do with living such and such a distance, whether you walked to work or flew, you were expected to be available and perform and you felt you had the obligation to be available and perform. Although we are talking trains and railroads here, the same alliances were in force whereever there was an employee/employer relationship. And up to that time railroads were the mode of transporting people and goods: the interstate highway system was just being built so people usually had one--perhaps two--cars per family and over the road tractor trailer hauls were just beginning; the jet age had just taken off. The erosion of rail traffic did begin in the 1920's with the family automobile and some short distance trucking; the interstate highways later cemented thier role in transportation. Remember, frieght went to the freight station in less than car load lots for the public as well as commercial businesses and Railway Express would usually be picked up at the passenger station or adjacent to it. In other words, the world as we knew it relied on railroads and railroads relied on its employees to achieve the goals and perform business of the company no matter what the weather or other circumstances. And for the most part the employees were appreciated for what they did. There were careers not just jobs.
In the day when railroads were semi-reliable 24/7 operations....all those required to operate the trains, control the trains, and repair the track lived within walking distance of their reporting points. Irrespective of the fact there there were a higher number of employees involved in the operation of trains.....they could walk to work in even the worst of weather and in the era of the day - they didn't have anything else to do under such weather conditions.
Remember, back then we all walked to school, 4 miles uphill each way.
Today, your train crews that live in urban areas are suburbanites like the rest of the people in the area and rely on highway transportation to get to their work location. Additionally the railroads normally require highway transportation to get their crews and maintenance personnel in position to perform their required duties. When it is necessary to transport these personnel on trains there are delays. Unfortunately, railroads have become slaves to efficient highway transportation in more ways than one. When the highways are shut down by weather, the railroads are severely handicapped.
I don't know Paul, if all your conclusions stated are true. Or are you summerizing the points made? I believe the main point of railroads being all weather goes to the fact that once railroads were a 24/7 business and the only major public transportation mode for both passenger and freight. Keeping tracks open for passenger trains was as important as keeping tracks open for freight trains and visa-versa. Moving trains was a philosopy of operating a railroad, not moving people or moving freight, those were a function of marketing which had not as yet taken control of operations. More people to do the work was just the result of the then operations.
Paul, I'm afraid I don't see anything in Jerry's original post that says there's "nothing intrinsic about railroads", so what is the "original point" you refer to?
Jerry Fox's original point was "hey wait a minute, I thought trains were supposed to work in bad weather" whereas Don Oltmann's original point to which I was referring was "trains work in bad weather if you have enough people to go out and perform cold, wet, and perhaps dangerous tasks", to which the discussion veered in one direction regarding whether current railroad people were being called out for allegedly not being as tough as their predecessors and then veered in another direction where railroad management was being scolded for "listening to bean counter" accountants and not spending their profits on large enough staffing levels "so the job is done right."
There are a number of talking points related to why passenger trains are needed as part of a balanced transportation system or perhaps why our transportation system is unbalanced or national transportation policy is found lacking when "Our only choice now is to wait for the highways and runways to clear."
Passenger trains, operate in weather conditions that shut down roads and airlines.
Passenger trains save on fuel.
Passenger trains offer wider seats and more legroom, and for extra fare, private rooms, not available on other modes.
Passenger trains are a lower-stress travel experience.
Passenger trains allow a person to get up and walk around and congregate with friends or chat with strangers in a lounge area.
Owing to the equivalence between one railroad track and 20 lanes of highway, passenger trains have seemingly unlimited capacity without being subject to congestion delays experienced by highway and airline travellers.
Passenger trains are cost competitive when all of the direct and hidden subsidies of other modes are made known.
Passenger trains are safer than flying or driving.
Passenger trains offer road and perhaps air-competitive travel times on routes up to 400 miles.
Each of these statements is certainly true individually when applied to some circumstances but not other circumstances. A subway track, with one-direction running, block signals, uniform train speeds, and standing passengers easily transports the equivalent of 20 lanes of highway in each direction. A single track freight railroad, however, is perhaps barely able to accomodate one daily train with the seating capacity of a single jumbo jet, especially if that train runs faster than the flow of freight traffic and the expectation is to give it priority. A single F40P pulling 11 gallery cars with all seats filled running at a constant 60 MPH gets a factor of 10 better fuel economy than anything else; that F40P running a commuter route with stops and people getting on and off the train so the train is not filled for the entire route, and taking into account deadheading moves, perhaps gets comparable fuel economy to a 2-person carpool. A sleeping car berth on a long distance train is perhaps of comparable fuel consumption to the much-maligned single-occupant automobile. The New Tokaido line has not had a single passenger fatality owing to a collision of trains or collision of a train with a highway vehicle; Amtrak has had on-train fatalities as well as numerous fatalities of motorists at grade crossings, although we tend to place the blame on the motorists for "being idiots" about grade crossings.
That these statements are true in combination or under all circumstances is certainly not the case. Making trains roomy and adding non-revenue lounge and dining cars works against fuel economy. Running passenger trains on existing freight lines to save the considerable cost of a dedicated passenger rail line works against the freedom from congestion delay, safety from collisions, and increases the level of stress for passengers to whom having the train arrive on time is important.
Likewise, trains can be made all-weather, owing to properties such as the absence of roadway-style slideouts on account of the guiding tracks, but doing this works against trains being cost competitive, owing to the labor requirements of making this happen.
Again, the discussion has veered in the direction that since trains can be made more all-weather if someone hired more people, that railroads or Amtrak do not have the staffing levels as back in the day, and this is further evidence of the "wrong direction" of American society.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Jerry Fox I just read on the Trains Newswire that Amtrak has cancelled trains on the Capitol Corridor in New York State, the Lake Shore Limited and the Downeaster service to Maine due to an ice storm. What happened to the days when a passenger train was the only way to get to your destination when the weather was bad? The private carriers touted their ability to get through snowtorms, ice storms, etc. when the planes were grounded and the highways weren't safe. They did so in full page ads in national magazines. They also did it with steam heated cars, telegraph communications, jointed rail and train order dispatching. Is Amtrak, the freight carriers and their employees really getting that soft? Our only choice now is to wait for the highways and runways to clear.
I just read on the Trains Newswire that Amtrak has cancelled trains on the Capitol Corridor in New York State, the Lake Shore Limited and the Downeaster service to Maine due to an ice storm. What happened to the days when a passenger train was the only way to get to your destination when the weather was bad? The private carriers touted their ability to get through snowtorms, ice storms, etc. when the planes were grounded and the highways weren't safe. They did so in full page ads in national magazines. They also did it with steam heated cars, telegraph communications, jointed rail and train order dispatching. Is Amtrak, the freight carriers and their employees really getting that soft? Our only choice now is to wait for the highways and runways to clear.
Paul Milenkovic The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work.
The original point is that there is nothing intrinsic about railroads that make them all-weather apart from a large number of people going out and doing a lot of hard, hard work.
I don't believe anything can ever be all things in all conditions, but there are differences between how weather can affect rail vs other modes. For example, slippery conditions can cause a train to skid past the end of track, but rarely will slipperiness make the train fall off the tracks.
But slipperiness can make vehicles fall off of highways, and airplanes fall off of runways. In the airplane runway case it's more likely that the airplane skids off the end of the runway, like a train overshooting a bumper. But a train can slow down to a safer speed much more readily than a landing airplane can, in fact there is a limit to how much an airborne plane can safely slow down before landing, even if they have ample warning of dangerously slippery runways.
On the other hand fog can make it dangerous for the train through the entire trip, an airplane can fly above the fog, so it's pretty much only an issue during takeoff and landing. But I submit that an airplane's not much use if it can't take off and land.
Patrick Boylan
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Well, obviously trains are comparable to airplanes in terms of overall reliability. I personally believe that pasenger trains should be looked upon as a foul-weather asset. But here is some sad news about where our inclement weather system is headed:
National Weather Service employees are balking at a cost-cutting proposal that would pull meteorologists out of all 20 air-route traffic control centers across the country -- including Miami.
'If we let this happen, people will die. It's that simple,' said Dan Sobien, president of the union that represents weather service workers..."
oltmannd Saving money and serving the customer are not mutually exclusive. The only reason we still have ANY frt railroading in this country is the managers were masterful at saving money. The alternative was to have a going out of business sale. Squeeze the cash out, stop investing, and scrap what's left. Mgt is beholden to the board and the board to the owners. The owners didn't invest for fun or out of altruism, they invested to make money. Nothing has changed.
Saving money and serving the customer are not mutually exclusive. The only reason we still have ANY frt railroading in this country is the managers were masterful at saving money. The alternative was to have a going out of business sale. Squeeze the cash out, stop investing, and scrap what's left. Mgt is beholden to the board and the board to the owners. The owners didn't invest for fun or out of altruism, they invested to make money.
Nothing has changed.
In my business, the reverse is true, however, and maybe that's why my views are somewhat jaded. But I saw the same mentality dismantle the EL and early CR. CR survived, in fact thrived, but at what cost to so many communities not on the PRR or NYC lines? How are former Erie or LV industrial communities better off when mainline freight is between Pittsburgh and Allentown or between Cleveland and Albany? Things like that form my thinking.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Maglev ...and all that really works fine for the freight haulers. Union Pacific's heroic effort in the Cascade landlside testifies that railroads are capabale of just about anything. Sometimes customers are inconvenienced, and often long-distance passenger trains are canceled. Having spent three winters at Cornell; I cannot imagine the efforts to keep the Phoebe Snow running. There must have been more freedom in those days of reliable, all-weather transportation. That was also an era of historically harsher winters, I believe. I still am uncertain how Amtrak's Cascades are doing in this bad weather. We have a winter storm warning now, (blizzard in Neah Bay) and there's also mention of ice... if some of these giant trees here fall down and I'm still alive, I'd be able to see the trains with binoculars... Safe and happy travels to all this Christmas!
...and all that really works fine for the freight haulers. Union Pacific's heroic effort in the Cascade landlside testifies that railroads are capabale of just about anything. Sometimes customers are inconvenienced, and often long-distance passenger trains are canceled.
Having spent three winters at Cornell; I cannot imagine the efforts to keep the Phoebe Snow running. There must have been more freedom in those days of reliable, all-weather transportation. That was also an era of historically harsher winters, I believe.
I still am uncertain how Amtrak's Cascades are doing in this bad weather. We have a winter storm warning now, (blizzard in Neah Bay) and there's also mention of ice... if some of these giant trees here fall down and I'm still alive, I'd be able to see the trains with binoculars...
Safe and happy travels to all this Christmas!
Yes, back then there were still some old timers around upstairs as well as out on the tracks that thought about service to the customer be it aboard a train or his goods aboard a train. Today the cost is the determining factor as to whether or not a service is performed. If it overtakes the profit or the rate, then it is not performed and will wait until the next cycle.
Your mention of the Phoebe Snow back then underscores the EL's old timers approach to such situations. When it was finally decided in late 1969 that the Lake Cities would be removed there were enough old timers around to hold up the effective date until the weekend after all students would have gotten back to college. A few years earlier, the B&M made a similar decision on the remnant of the Montrealer north out of Springfield, MA, a weekend RDC service to Greenfield for colleges along the Connecticut River, when they waited until after the February between semester break and everyone was safe back in their dorms to end the service. There are horror stories of that time, too, of trains being cancelled in mid schedule, or operated into a terminal in the morning but failing to be running that night. I believe Penn Central was noted for that.
And Oltman, yeah, maybe I am a little harsh, at least overstated. And, yes, there are some realization in some railroads (and American businesses) that doing business by serving customers to feed the bottom line rather than figuring out how to save money to feed the bottom line, is a better long term philosophy. Short term goals for 100% return on investment or fattening the bottom line for resale of the property I think is over. For a while.
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