Getting back to auto racks for evacuation, could people drive their (loaded) cars onto a train and ride to higher ground? With Fido maybe?
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Well, I hope our President never has to scramble for a train car and ride an auto rack--and from previous posts here, I know that a "Royal Train" wouldn't sell in the US o' A. The furthest that might be economically viable is a single, purpose-designed modern car for transporting The President. The military I hope has these, but we live in a land where we should be proud of our infrastructure and some things should be flaunted, not hidden. My proposal includes spotting the car at WUS and letting the tourists walk through, as they do the White House.
As far as actual need for railroads for civil defense, any comments on rail's role in the Gulf industrial accident?
Maglev I am glad to hear that moderate amounts of ash are not harmful to diesel locomotives. I do not know about the different effects of volcanic ash on bearings (as opposed to coal or rock dust...) Could auto racks be used to transport people?
I am glad to hear that moderate amounts of ash are not harmful to diesel locomotives. I do not know about the different effects of volcanic ash on bearings (as opposed to coal or rock dust...)
Could auto racks be used to transport people?
Sure, but they would not meet safety standards..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
A Presidential train has been almost talked to death here, but please let me drive a few nails into that long black box. As much as I love trains, I'd never expect a president to use them beyond a rare ceremonial whistle-stop event. Here's why:
-- Security, pt. 1-- Eevery mile of track, every overpass and tunnel and every structure or lot beside the railway becomes a potential threat. The POTUS train would be on tracks managed by multiple companies and dispatchers, each requiring their own level of scrutiny. Compare this porject to the ease if soaring above the clouds, in a protective web of radar and ECM.
-- Security, Pt. 2- A train's path is restricted by the tracks it can be accessed, if they've been screened for security. An airplane, even a big one, can fly anywhere and land in every large city.
-- Facilities-- Nobody's train can be more than, what, 12 feet wide and fit within our rail system. That restricts the size of meeting rooms, etc., much more than a wide-bodied 747, IIRC.
-- Image-- Strange to say, but many USA'ers regard trains as low-class or industrial. Imagine the helicopter shots: "The President's train is making its way through the freight yards, due downtown in 15 minutes. Now it's right there, passing a train of scrap metal and municipal waste..." When it arrives in places like Atlanta NYP, the setting isn't very grand and edifying, either.
Translate these factors into common measures of increased cost, multiply by the lost time and you'd get an equation that couldn't be very appealing to any presidential even planner or Secret Service official...
Instead of a grand presidential train, we have to instead salute the humble commuter and intercity trains that have proven themselves valuable in maintaining civilian mobility after a crisis that halts air travel, first on 9/11 and in an ever bigger way during that Icelandic eruption.
Have not read all the posts on this subject but:
1. AMTRAK doe not have enough equipment to do mass evacuations if track time was available.
2. Local politics can make what little help available unable to function. Look at the local mayor's rejection of AMTRAK help for New Orleans during Katrina. A case of 1000 people unable to leave and then suffering the consequences.
3. However the next evacuation of New Orleans (2 train loads) to Memphis was sucessful.
When Mt. St. Helens blew its top, a vast amount of volcanic ash was thrown into the atmosphere. Railroads operating in the area found that they needed to replace intake filters daily to keep them from plugging up. I would think that journal bearings might have suffered damage from ash being stirred up since they are not sealed.
Well, I don't want to debate solar-magnetic induction of cold fusion in hot-spot volcanoes, exploited by tritium in hybrid nuclear; for mag-lev trains. This might truly be sustainable transportation... but it is truly "debatable," and I have posted ad-nauseum on other fora.
The eruption of Eyjafjöll wrought havoc on Europe's air travel system. Trains ran as usual.
I am aware that there are technical difficulties of filtering combustion or motor-blower air. I am suggesting Amtrak have this equipment on hand.
Maglev . I predict volcanic activity worldwide to continue to increase due to the unexpected low activity on the Sun since 2006.
. I predict volcanic activity worldwide to continue to increase due to the unexpected low activity on the Sun since 2006.
You could be correct. Although there has not been additional volcanic activity (other than a jump that cannot be statistically verified yet) the apmount of earthquakesw is also up ( again not yet a trend?) and they often proceed a volcano.
In light of the first post on page 3, I am glad I decided to make this comment on September 12.
Volcanic activity can ground airplanes, while train locomotives could carry air scrubbers to even operate in volcanic ash fall areas. I predict volcanic activity worldwide to continue to increase due to the unexpected low activity on the Sun since 2006.
henry6 During the 70s and 80s it was bandied around that Amtrak had to be dismantled because it would allow Russians or Commies of any kind, to be able to move troops around when they invaded. Furthermore, Beach Grove Shops would be turned into a armed tank assembly plant. Don't know if it was that they really thought so little of the rail system as being a viable transportation mode or if they just wanted us to think that way.
During the 70s and 80s it was bandied around that Amtrak had to be dismantled because it would allow Russians or Commies of any kind, to be able to move troops around when they invaded. Furthermore, Beach Grove Shops would be turned into a armed tank assembly plant. Don't know if it was that they really thought so little of the rail system as being a viable transportation mode or if they just wanted us to think that way.
Using that argument wouldn't you have to dismantle the entire RR system (not to mention the interstates). The Beech Grove reference sounds like the conspiracy theory nonsense that the shop facility is actually a "secret New World Order concentration camp" that gets bandied about on the web..
From what I've read of late Cold War era military planning on the US side was that there was very little thought of a Soviet army invasion of the North American continent as logically the nukes would be flying well before that could happen (not to mention that the USSR's surface naval forces were not the true "Blue Water Navy" that the USN was). The above scenario seems like something out of the movie "Red Dawn"..
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
You could have fooled me with respect to Harry Truman have a DC-6 airplane named "Independence" (after his Missouri home town). Or President Truman taking that plane to Wake Island in the middle of the Pacific to meet with General MacArthur.
Or the part on the PBS series American Experience about Truman being hounded by the press for taking that DC-6 to Missouri to be with his wife over Christmas as she didn't like to stay at the White House.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
President Truman said as President that he refused to fly, he felt that taking the train kept you more in touch with the country than flying thousands of feet over it.
I am a fan of solar-terrestrial physics as well as trains, and the ability of solar radiation storms to destroy large items in our power grid has received some extra press lately. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/21jan_severespaceweather.htm?list1280158
Yesterday's Trians News Wire shows a movement of the type which exemplifies how maintenance of our rail network contributes to our civil defense: http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=5224
From Reuters:
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Maglev Sorry, the only disaster type I am trying to prevent is 9-11. The Air Florida (five blocks from the White House??) crash and Honolulu incident show that our nation is in no way immune to airliner accidents or events which might cause death on the ground. And I am grasping at straws. Even just closing ONE airport could make a huge difference for Amtrak. Yes, I think this should happen (close Reagan) -- but what if it just MIGHT happen? Is Amtrak prepared? Midway and La Guardia too. Is Logan next on the list? Then draw the line there. Maybe 20-passenger propellor planes are safe, but why are 757's encouraged to cruise The Pentagon? Show the world that we are doing something about carbon emissions, and we are not fools when it comes to civil defense.
Sorry, the only disaster type I am trying to prevent is 9-11. The Air Florida (five blocks from the White House??) crash and Honolulu incident show that our nation is in no way immune to airliner accidents or events which might cause death on the ground. And I am grasping at straws. Even just closing ONE airport could make a huge difference for Amtrak. Yes, I think this should happen (close Reagan) -- but what if it just MIGHT happen? Is Amtrak prepared?
Midway and La Guardia too. Is Logan next on the list? Then draw the line there. Maybe 20-passenger propellor planes are safe, but why are 757's encouraged to cruise The Pentagon? Show the world that we are doing something about carbon emissions, and we are not fools when it comes to civil defense.
So you are proposing that the US government should force a number of major municipal airports to close to prevent a hypothetical terrorist attack?
As far as driving the airlines out of business to help passenger rail why not shut down and demolish all or part of the interstate system (and don't forget that automobile travel is statistically the least safe)? That would really boost ridership. I guess you would also favor restablishing the transatlantic liner system for travel to Europe as well...
Maglev I thought it was a 737, was a bit surprised when my Google search said 727. Mitigating disruption by natural or military events is possibly a reason for supporting a national passenger rail system, with the numerous exceptions mentioned in above posts duly noted. At least I know better than to advocate trains on the basis of fuel efficiency or safety! Airplanes are amazingly efficient, although zero emissions is impossible (and electric trains can have zero emissions). But as for safety -- hush, hush -- has intercity (including inter-urban) rail had more deaths than commercial airlines lately? Posted on: Monday, January 6, 2003 FAA investigating flight of 747 jet over Waikiki By Walter WrightAdvertiser Staff Writer (excerpt) "...John Carroll, a former Hawaiian Airlines pilot and head of a company that supplies pilots to foreign airlines, said reports of the 747 coming near buildings in Waikiki indicate 'just how vulnerable this city would be to a terrorist attack' like that of Sept. 11, 2001. After the Sept. 11 attacks, authorities here said they would use Hawai'i Air National Guard fighters, if necessary, to shoot down any incoming flight that appeared to be being used as a terrorist weapon. The guard had not responded late yesterday as to whether the China Airlines jet's flight path triggered any alarms."
I thought it was a 737, was a bit surprised when my Google search said 727.
Mitigating disruption by natural or military events is possibly a reason for supporting a national passenger rail system, with the numerous exceptions mentioned in above posts duly noted.
At least I know better than to advocate trains on the basis of fuel efficiency or safety! Airplanes are amazingly efficient, although zero emissions is impossible (and electric trains can have zero emissions). But as for safety -- hush, hush -- has intercity (including inter-urban) rail had more deaths than commercial airlines lately?
Posted on: Monday, January 6, 2003
FAA investigating flight of 747 jet over Waikiki
By Walter WrightAdvertiser Staff Writer
(excerpt)
"...John Carroll, a former Hawaiian Airlines pilot and head of a company that supplies pilots to foreign airlines, said reports of the 747 coming near buildings in Waikiki indicate 'just how vulnerable this city would be to a terrorist attack' like that of Sept. 11, 2001. After the Sept. 11 attacks, authorities here said they would use Hawai'i Air National Guard fighters, if necessary, to shoot down any incoming flight that appeared to be being used as a terrorist weapon. The guard had not responded late yesterday as to whether the China Airlines jet's flight path triggered any alarms."
Sorry, but you're argument is sort of a 21st Century version of the old saying "If God had meant man to fly, he would have given him wings"...Of course intercity rail has a better safety record statistically. But Commercial Aviation (in the developed world, at least) nowadays is so safe that it's really hair splitting to compare the two. You're not going to get large numbers of people to switch modes by citing grisly air disasters... I'm all for High speed intercity rail where it makes sense.
An electric train, be it Acela, Silverliner MU's, PCC's, or whatever, is emission-free only in isolation from its power source. The electric power it uses has to come from somewhere, and the generating plant that provides that power is probably issuing emissions of some sort.
Air Florida was a 737-200 with JT8D-7 engines that took off in icing conditions that caused engines readings of the power guage (EPR) NOT TO FUNCTION PROPERLY BECAUSE THE PILOTS DID NOT TURN THE ENGINE ANTI-ICING FUNCTION ON. Not a real comparsion to this thread.
Logan, yes; Midway, no; grasping for straws, definitely.
The risk is more than just terrorism. Remember the Air FLorida 727 that crashed at the 14th St. Bridge in 1982? Events like that are not a thing of the past. I recall a 747 that gaves its passengers a special view of Waikiki during a "Kona" wind landing, alarming many skyscraper occupants.
Maglev I had another defense idea -- one that could directly increase Amtrak's importance. Is it a good idea that there is a commercial airport just a few blocks from the White House? When I last went East, we stayed in a hotel in VA overlooking the Potomac. The parade of airplanes, including some 757's, was constant. Besides the noise and pollution, there is a security risk. The relative closeness to town and abundance of important offices is way out of proportion compared to many cities (with perhaps exception of La Guardia...).
I had another defense idea -- one that could directly increase Amtrak's importance. Is it a good idea that there is a commercial airport just a few blocks from the White House? When I last went East, we stayed in a hotel in VA overlooking the Potomac. The parade of airplanes, including some 757's, was constant. Besides the noise and pollution, there is a security risk. The relative closeness to town and abundance of important offices is way out of proportion compared to many cities (with perhaps exception of La Guardia...).
You've obviously never flown in or out of Midway or Logan. You're really grasping at straws in your attempts to justify Amtrak's long-haul service.
The importance of railroads to civil stability is crucial. Look at India, Iraq, Japan, China... Iran was even considering a mag-lev line. Transportation has a pervasive influence on the unity of a nation.
Railroads hold India's cities together as no other transportation mode could. In Iraq, restoration of commuter trains is a key to recovery. Japan was forced to reconsider their social infrastructure because of World War II and their limited resources, and their economic success and stability shows they made the right choices. China will succeed with a train where ideology and military might have failed: they will conquer Tibet. Do we really like being behind Iran in terms of public transportation?
Travel in America tells us we live in the land of the confined and the home of the afraid, and all we are allowed to see is gray sky's majesty.
Maglev. But how about civil defense? What is the relative effectiveness of trains versus other transportation modes for evacuation?
But how about civil defense? What is the relative effectiveness of trains versus other transportation modes for evacuation?
Since we don't have a clear, cohesive, rationalized, nonpoliticized, national transportation policy, there is no real way of answering your question. If an air traffic control tower is bombed out, there is no air services. If a highway is bombed out, there is no truck and auto service. If a pipeline or power lines are bombed out, there is no fuel or electricity. If a rail line is bombed out, there is no frieght or passenger rail service. So which would be most important to plan for? I would venture from this point that some kind of regional plan, like that in New Orleans since Katrina, would, or should, be looked at.
Well, the idea of having a Presidential Superliner train seems about as popular as replacing Air Force One with a fuel-efficient Airbus. And as for military defense, the main issue I see is that our air transport system is susceptible to disruption... otherwise, the existing infrastructure is probably sufficient to support any military needs.
I just received my January, 2009 TRAINS -- on page 11, "QJ's set freight record, help flood victims." Money was raised for charity by giving tours of a steam locomotive. But steam locomotives can be helpful in natural disaster because they can run through water above the rails.
Maglev Let's say we have another 9-11 type event, and commercial air traffic shuts down again. Air Force One would stick out like a sore thumb if it's the only plane flying! Our nation is not secure because of its over-reliance on airplanes. One of the reasons I moved from Hawaii to Washington is because the economy there was hit so hard by 9-11. My wife worked for a cooperative asociation in a National Park. After 9-11, charity organizations took a big hit. Funding dwindled, programs were cut, staff suffered. All because of a few guys with box cutters... Incidentally, 9-11 provided one of the very few opportunities to determine the amount of air pollution from jetpalnes. Contrails definitely have a climate effect.
Let's say we have another 9-11 type event, and commercial air traffic shuts down again. Air Force One would stick out like a sore thumb if it's the only plane flying!
Our nation is not secure because of its over-reliance on airplanes. One of the reasons I moved from Hawaii to Washington is because the economy there was hit so hard by 9-11. My wife worked for a cooperative asociation in a National Park. After 9-11, charity organizations took a big hit. Funding dwindled, programs were cut, staff suffered. All because of a few guys with box cutters...
Incidentally, 9-11 provided one of the very few opportunities to determine the amount of air pollution from jetpalnes. Contrails definitely have a climate effect.
Air force one did fly after the commercial/general aviation grounding as did all military and a fair amount of (non DOD) Federal Government aircraft.
Having personally seen AF One land it "sticks out like a sore thumb" anyway.....
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