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Justice Department Sues Norfolk Southern

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Justice Department Sues Norfolk Southern
Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, July 30, 2024 6:35 PM
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, July 31, 2024 8:28 AM

The same concern broached by the Government during the STB hearings on the New-Orleans-to-Mobile trains.  Now made bold in an atmosphere of greater Government contempt for Norfolk Southern.

(I think other railroads, historically, have had much more of a 'scofflaw' attitude to Amtrak operations, and this might in part be chosen as a 'target of convenience' in the same way Reuther's UAW targeted the perceived weakest auto maker when setting periodic 'industry' contract amounts.)

I see advance actions to facilitate the increased Amtrak traffic between Meridian and Atlanta over this very stretch of track.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, July 31, 2024 10:57 AM

Or just maybe NS is the culprit more recently?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, July 31, 2024 1:42 PM

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, July 31, 2024 3:45 PM

charlie hebdo
Or just maybe NS is the culprit more recently?

I wouldn't rule out that the Government is 'after' NS, perhaps as a continued target of opportunity, after East Palestine and its consequences.  That might be associated with some interpretation of strict scrutiny.

I don't know whether the chronic delays on trains like the Texas Eagle have been remediated, but I had the impression those were worse and more frequent than Silver Service or Crescent delays.  Having been stuck in West Palm Beach with ICD issues this past week -- I certainly see the trains through here on time or arriving early.  Although that is well south of any critical congestion.  I was recently 'treated' to a sequential crossing delay of magnificent proportions: first a Tri-Rail train, then northbound Amtrak, then a reasonably long southbound freight.

It does have to be said that the freights run at higher track speed on both the FEC (shared route with Brightline) and ex-Seaboard here.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, July 31, 2024 7:34 PM

Overmod
 
charlie hebdo
Or just maybe NS is the culprit more recently? 

I wouldn't rule out that the Government is 'after' NS, perhaps as a continued target of opportunity, after East Palestine and its consequences.  That might be associated with some interpretation of strict scrutiny. 

I don't know whether the chronic delays on trains like the Texas Eagle have been remediated, but I had the impression those were worse and more frequent than Silver Service or Crescent delays.  Having been stuck in West Palm Beach with ICD issues this past week -- I certainly see the trains through here on time or arriving early.  Although that is well south of any critical congestion.  I was recently 'treated' to a sequential crossing delay of magnificent proportions: first a Tri-Rail train, then northbound Amtrak, then a reasonably long southbound freight.

It does have to be said that the freights run at higher track speed on both the FEC (shared route with Brightline) and ex-Seaboard here.

Back in the middle Oughts - CSX had a VP of Operations that didn't register passenger operations in the middle of his lizard brain.  As I recall he got called to a 'Come to Yahweh' meeting in DC.  There he got to respond to several Congressional power brokers as well as the Congressional delegations from Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia to explain his thoughts on why Commuters from the states mentioned as well as Amtrak which had a number of State funded trains being disadvantaged by 'his' operating philosophy of screw the passenger trains.

The individual left the meeting with their hair, and other parts of the body parted and subsequently passengers were given priority - not absolute priority, but priority that they did not have before the meeting.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, August 1, 2024 7:06 PM

CMStPnP

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

 

That looks like the most likely explanation I've seen. It will be interesting to see the data presented.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, August 1, 2024 7:57 PM

charlie hebdo
 
CMStPnP

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect. 

That looks like the most likely explanation I've seen. It will be interesting to see the data presented.

I can't speak about other carriers and I can't speak about CSX in EHH and later years.

When I was still working, CSX planned their Operations in the following manner. Amtrak and the various commuter authorities schedules were the ground level foundation of the operating plan.  The next level of the plan encompassed the customer requirement for premiere intermodal service (UPS, FedEx etc.).  The third level of the plan accounted for Automotive traffic, both parts and finished vehicles from factories to distribution centers.  The fourth level of the plan encompassed the general merchandise customers.  After these four areas of business were plotted out, they would expose 'windows' on the various sub-divisions that could be utilized first by local freights/road switchers servicing industries on main lines outside of terminals and which were also windows to be utilized by 'unscheduled' bulk commodity trains (Coal, Coke, Iron Ore, Grain etc.)

Every week the Operating Plan would be tweaked weekly to revise portions of it to account for MofW Curfews (Rail Gangs, Tie & Surfacing Gangs, Curve Patch Gangs, etc.).

Was it 'perfect'?  No way, Doo Doo happens!  However, Division Management was measured on the various elements of Plan Compliance and those measurements were factored into the Performance Review & Bonus program that ultimately ended up in their paychecks.

What carriers are doing the era of PSR, I have no idea.

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Posted by PJS1 on Thursday, August 1, 2024 10:26 PM
In FY23 Amtrak paid the freight railroads that host its trains $180 million.  In FY22 it was $155 million.  Payments are for rights-of-way access and performance.  The carriers claim Amtrak’s payments do not cover the fully allocated cost of hosting its trains.
 
According to Jim McClellan, who was in on Amtrak from the get go and has shared some insights about Amtrak in “My Life with Trains, Amtrak never paid the freight railroads the fully allocated cost of hosting its trains.  His book was published in 2017, so it is possible the cost model has changed.    

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Posted by n012944 on Friday, August 2, 2024 9:15 AM

charlie hebdo

 

 
CMStPnP

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

 

 

 

That looks like the most likely explanation I've seen. It will be interesting to see the data presented.

 

 

Except it isn't close to being true.  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, August 2, 2024 10:45 AM

n012944

 

 
charlie hebdo

 

 
CMStPnP

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

 

 

 

That looks like the most likely explanation I've seen. It will be interesting to see the data presented.

 

 

 

 

Except it isn't close to being true.  

 

Could you explain why/how CMStPnP's speculation is not true?

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Posted by n012944 on Friday, August 2, 2024 10:53 AM

charlie hebdo

 

 
n012944

 

 
charlie hebdo

 

 
CMStPnP

I could understand a Class I possibly being upset at Amtrak if they ever managed to run their freight trains on a reliable schedule and Amtrak was trully interfereing in an efficient operation of some type.    Reality is that most freight railroads today seem to be fairly slipshod with time keeping or regular schedules and so it looks like nothing more than disdain for Amtrak.......not sure over what since they are quick to take Amtrak's money and attempt to gouge Amtrak financially when it comes to adding new passenger trains.    To me personally, it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

 

 

 

That looks like the most likely explanation I've seen. It will be interesting to see the data presented.

 

 

 

 

Except it isn't close to being true.  

 

 

 

Could you explain why/how CMStPnP's speculation is not true?

 

Actually working for the railroad.   I dispatch the same territory 5 days a week on the same shift.  I can tell you which manifests and intermodals run over that territory during my shift, and about 98% of the time I will run those trains.  It is not "slipshod" at all.

 

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, August 2, 2024 3:56 PM

n012944
it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

I was referring to his final contention  Sorry I wasn't clearer.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, August 2, 2024 7:40 PM

n012944
Actually working for the railroad.   I dispatch the same territory 5 days a week on the same shift.  I can tell you which manifests and intermodals run over that territory during my shift, and about 98% of the time I will run those trains.  It is not "slipshod" at all.

I see it all the time trackside and I am not even much of a railfan.    Gosh you can even see it with the rail excursions or steam specials.    When was the last time one of those ran on time or on schedule?     A couple of months ago I watched a shuttle van picking up a BNSF railroad crew after they parked their train in siding in the middle of Texas moonscape country, had to laugh at that.    Just wonderful equipment utilization and timely scheduling there.    The train sat in the middle of nowhere for almost two days parked.    Then there is the whole UP directional running scam........do we do that with the freeway system?    Run northbound only in I-35 and Southbound only on I-55?    I understand they want to pinch a penny until Lincoln screams but is this really something the rest of us as consumers of transportation should accept since we are sitting around suffering from the effects when that system falls apart?     Can't tell you some of the looney tunes I have seen riding Amtrak Long Distance.    Lack of resilency and redundancy because freight does not care if it sits for hours or days on a side track.   Frieght never complains.   OK, fine then only carry frieght and stop asking for Federal money to fix railroad infrastructure.

You know as well as I do that railroads won't refuse to handle existing Amtrak trains because handling them poorly won't generate the bad PR or the Congressional heat than outright refusal to handle Amtrak LD trains.    

Bottom line should be if  the railroads take Federal money and the railroads take Amtraks money the railroads need to deliver a on-time service and adhere to schedule or they need to make a decent business case as to why they can't and persue Federal funding so they can.   Otherwise the traveling public and the taxpayer are both getting ripped off.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, August 2, 2024 7:57 PM

CMStPnP
 
n012944
Actually working for the railroad.   I dispatch the same territory 5 days a week on the same shift.  I can tell you which manifests and intermodals run over that territory during my shift, and about 98% of the time I will run those trains.  It is not "slipshod" at all. 

I see it all the time trackside and I am not even much of a railfan.    Gosh you can even see it with the rail excursions or steam specials.    When was the last time one of those ran on time or on schedule?     A couple of months ago I watched a shuttle van picking up a BNSF railroad crew after they parked their train in siding in the middle of Texas moonscape country, had to laugh at that.    Just wonderful equipment utilization and timely scheduling there.    The train sat in the middle of nowhere for almost two days parked.    Then there is the whole UP directional running scam........do we do that with the freeway system?    Run northbound only in I-35 and Southbound only on I-55?    I understand they want to pinch a penny until Lincoln screams but is this really something the rest of us as consumers of transportation should accept since we are sitting around suffering from the effects when that system falls apart?     Can't tell you some of the looney tunes I have seen riding Amtrak Long Distance.    Lack of resilency and redundancy because freight does not care if it sits for hours or days on a side track.   Frieght never complains.   OK, fine then only carry frieght and stop asking for Federal money to fix railroad infrastructure.

You know as well as I do that railroads won't refuse to handle existing Amtrak trains because handling them poorly won't generate the bad PR or the Congressional heat than outright refusal to handle Amtrak LD trains.    

Bottom line should be if  the railroads take Federal money and the railroads take Amtraks money the railroads need to deliver a on-time service and adhere to schedule or they need to make a decent business case as to why they can't and persue Federal funding so they can.   Otherwise the traveling public and the taxpayer are both getting ripped off.

Equating the governmentally funded highways and the privately funded railroads is the height of comparing apples and steamed crabs as equals.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, August 2, 2024 10:40 PM

BaltACD
Equating the governmentally funded highways and the privately funded railroads is the height of comparing apples and steamed crabs as equals.

Private or public, traffic management is still traffic management.   I don't see why there should be a difference based on funding source.    Same with transportation network fluidity.   Seems to me that railroads know the issue but do not want to address it because rail freight doesn't complain and nobody has challenged them yet with Amtrak LD train handling.   If we had a major conventional war like WWII again, I think our current railroad system would sieze up and nothing would move.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, August 7, 2024 5:01 PM

CMStPnP
 
BaltACD
Equating the governmentally funded highways and the privately funded railroads is the height of comparing apples and steamed crabs as equals. 

Private or public, traffic management is still traffic management.   I don't see why there should be a difference based on funding source.    Same with transportation network fluidity.   Seems to me that railroads know the issue but do not want to address it because rail freight doesn't complain and nobody has challenged them yet with Amtrak LD train handling.   If we had a major conventional war like WWII again, I think our current railroad system would sieze up and nothing would move.

The Golden Rule.  Those with the gold make the rules.  Amtrak, not having track ownership on their LD routes doesn't get to make the rules.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, August 7, 2024 10:58 PM

BaltACD
Those with the gold make the rules.

Not applicable to HOA's by the way.   Usually the gallatically stupid making the rules in HOA's.    At any rate, while it is true that Amtrak does not have track ownership I am not sure the railroads completely understand their obligation as a transportation company.    In that respect they may have the gold but the traveling public gets to make the rules.

Common carrier obligation: The common carrier obligation (CCO) is a legal requirement for railroads to provide transportation services to the public upon reasonable request. This obligation is a fundamental part of rail policy and was incorporated into federal law in 1887. It continues to be in effect under the Staggers Rail Act of 1980.

I would opine that providing a transportation service includes running on a reliable and convienent schedule not really the choice of the railroad to decide the schedule each and every day.

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Posted by n012944 on Sunday, August 11, 2024 5:23 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
n012944
Actually working for the railroad.   I dispatch the same territory 5 days a week on the same shift.  I can tell you which manifests and intermodals run over that territory during my shift, and about 98% of the time I will run those trains.  It is not "slipshod" at all.

I see it all the time trackside and I am not even much of a railfan. 

Ok, I will bow to your expertise.  40 hours a week at a railroad doesn't equal a "not much of a railfan" when it comes to expertise.  LOL, only on this forum.

CMStPnP

 

 Gosh you can even see it with the rail excursions or steam specials.    When was the last time one of those ran on time or on schedule?   

Steam specials, that is the bar you set?  Equipment that, at best is 80 years old and isn't used anymore....Just stop.

 

CMStPnP

 A couple of months ago I watched a shuttle van picking up a BNSF railroad crew after they parked their train in siding in the middle of Texas moonscape country, had to laugh at that.   

There could be lots of reasons for that.  One with your "expertise" should know that, but I degress.

 

CMStPnP

Just wonderful equipment utilization and timely scheduling there.    The train sat in the middle of nowhere for almost two days parked.   

See above

CMStPnP

Then there is the whole UP directional running scam........do we do that with the freeway system? Run northbound only in I-35 and Southbound only on I-55? 

Well railroads and highways are different, so there are no comparision.

 

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, August 12, 2024 10:26 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
BaltACD
Those with the gold make the rules.

 

Not applicable to HOA's by the way.   Usually the gallatically stupid making the rules in HOA's.    At any rate, while it is true that Amtrak does not have track ownership I am not sure the railroads completely understand their obligation as a transportation company.    In that respect they may have the gold but the traveling public gets to make the rules.

Common carrier obligation: The common carrier obligation (CCO) is a legal requirement for railroads to provide transportation services to the public upon reasonable request. This obligation is a fundamental part of rail policy and was incorporated into federal law in 1887. It continues to be in effect under the Staggers Rail Act of 1980.

I would opine that providing a transportation service includes running on a reliable and convienent schedule not really the choice of the railroad to decide the schedule each and every day.

 

You and I (and the general public) might think so, but many railroads and some of their employees think not.

Can't see the forest for the trees, etc.

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, August 12, 2024 12:22 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
CMStPnP

 

 
BaltACD
Those with the gold make the rules.

 

Not applicable to HOA's by the way.   Usually the gallatically stupid making the rules in HOA's.    At any rate, while it is true that Amtrak does not have track ownership I am not sure the railroads completely understand their obligation as a transportation company.    In that respect they may have the gold but the traveling public gets to make the rules.

Common carrier obligation: The common carrier obligation (CCO) is a legal requirement for railroads to provide transportation services to the public upon reasonable request. This obligation is a fundamental part of rail policy and was incorporated into federal law in 1887. It continues to be in effect under the Staggers Rail Act of 1980.

I would opine that providing a transportation service includes running on a reliable and convienent schedule not really the choice of the railroad to decide the schedule each and every day.

 

 

 

You and I (and the general public) might think so, but many railroads and some of their employees think not.

Can't see the forest for the trees, etc.

 

 

What the general public thinks they are entilted to, and what they are legaly entilted to are often two different things.  

 

My guess is the railroad's legal department have a much better grasp on the legal footing than the general public.  Kind of like a foamer telling a railroader about the railroads operations.   But I degress.

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, August 12, 2024 12:23 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
n012944
it just looks like Amtrak is making otherwise sloppy railroad management more visible to the public and shareholders..............and that is what railroads are really against, the visibility aspect.

 

I was referring to his final contention  Sorry I wasn't clearer.

 

 

I am not sure why you have that wording as being said by me.  That is nothing that I would say, or agree with.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, August 16, 2024 2:23 PM

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, August 16, 2024 4:07 PM

charlie hebdo
Deleted

Best post of the thread.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, August 16, 2024 7:19 PM

I continue to fail to see the point of citing anything about some 'common-carrier obligation' (or HOAs, or Philadelphia-lawyer legal departments, etc.) when the law is established at 49 USC 24308(c) -- and (d) through (f) in further detail.  You can read that detail here:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title49-chapter243&edition=prelim

to save further 'speculation'.

FRA final rule establishing metrics to be used to assess 'actionable' delays under this legislation:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-11-16/pdf/2020-25212.pdf

Legislation like the 2021 Payne bill (H.R.2937)

https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hr2937/BILLS-117hr2937ih.pdf

and the Justice Department suit rely on the interpretation of these provisions.

 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, August 16, 2024 11:34 PM

charlie hebdo
You and I (and the general public) might think so, but many railroads and some of their employees think not. Can't see the forest for the trees, etc. Add Q

Meh, institutionalized thinking.    Note Amtrak lengthening train schedules yet again because the host railroads can't seem to move a train over the road on a fixed schedule.    How many times in the past has this been done already?   How many more times will it be done in the future?    If a freight client demands a faster or more reliable schedule that should be the norm rather than an exception, the railroad wants to a charge a premium for it without caring much competitors will handle the business without the premium.   In some cases thats OK in others not. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, August 18, 2024 3:00 PM

BaltACD

 

 
charlie hebdo
Deleted

 

Best post of the thread.

 

Says the former dispatcher and friend of management.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, August 18, 2024 3:09 PM

Overmod

I continue to fail to see the point of citing anything about some 'common-carrier obligation' (or HOAs, or Philadelphia-lawyer legal departments, etc.) when the law is established at 49 USC 24308(c) -- and (d) through (f) in further detail.  You can read that detail here:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title49-chapter243&edition=prelim

to save further 'speculation'.

FRA final rule establishing metrics to be used to assess 'actionable' delays under this legislation:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-11-16/pdf/2020-25212.pdf

Legislation like the 2021 Payne bill (H.R.2937)

https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hr2937/BILLS-117hr2937ih.pdf

and the Justice Department suit rely on the interpretation of these provisions.

 

 

Questions: Did those House bills pass and become law? Were either in part or whole overturned by the "Heritage Court" at some later date on appeal by the freight lines?

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, August 18, 2024 9:39 PM

charlie hebdo
 
BaltACD 
charlie hebdo
Deleted 

Best post of the thread. 

Says the former dispatcher and friend of management.

As usual you are only half right.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, August 30, 2024 3:37 PM

11 days later and I still haven't had time to tot up the current cases pending.  I apologize.

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