There's dozens that could support additional service-- they just don't have a cooperating RR to work with as CPKC has been in this cae.
GrampWhat type of equipment will it have?
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.CarletonThe Midwest Venture fleet is owned by Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Missouri so Amtrak is contractually obligated to keep that equipment in those states. Minnesota will have to wait until the Airo sets arrive to get the new stuff.
That maybe true but also Amtrak has a policy that all new state supported trains will run with Horizon equipment potentially with an Amfleet car for cafe / business class if a Horizon car is not setup that way. Their plan is to use Horizon cars until 2026 at which point they think they should have enough other equipment available.
matthewsaggieThere's dozens that could support additional service-- they just don't have a cooperating RR to work with as CPKC has been in this cae.
Southern Rail Commission website has status reports on each of the new trains they are pushing with Amtrak. Last I looked they were fairly current with updates.
CMStPnPThat maybe true but also Amtrak has a policy that all new state supported trains will run with Horizon equipment potentially with an Amfleet car for cafe / business class if a Horizon car is not setup that way. Their plan is to use Horizon cars until 2026 at which point they think they should have enough other equipment available.
Have the Venture Cafe Cars joined the Venture Coaches yet? Or is Amtrak still using the Old Amfleet Cafe cars?
ATSFGuyHave the Venture Cafe Cars joined the Venture Coaches yet? Or is Amtrak still using the Old Amfleet Cafe cars?
A post on Reddit indicated that Minnesota has joined the Midwest Consortium within the last several days. That should be easy to confirm, perhaps with some technical details about equipment to be used.
Since I saw Amfleet in the video of the equipment move, but the train coaches are Horizon, I suspect the continuing use of Amcafe until more modern consists take over...
OvermodA post on Reddit indicated that Minnesota has joined the Midwest Consortium within the last several days.
D.CarletonStill, Minnesota could ante up a few bucks and join the compact.
I am still scratching my head over what the strategy is in that state. They seem to have intelligent people in their DOT rail passenger area and they gave Wisconsin some good advice about setting up a station in Pewaukee along with decent demographic data to support their point of view (no clue if Wisconsin will do this but I suspect they listened because they did notice the Milwaukee Airport Station has boosted ridership on the Hiawatha).
Minnesota doesn't seem to have a real long term strategy though. Just seems like they want to get Amtrak trains running no matter if they make any real sense or not. The Northstar I think was a good overnight train they could have tweaked or built on but then they eliminated it. Then the Minneapolis to Duluth service, would make a lot more sense if they had a better solution long-term to the termination point in Minneapolis. No real service proposed or planned to the Mayo Clinic. No Twin Cities to Kansas City or Des Moines service planned?
Very strange.
CMStPnPI am still scratching my head over what the strategy is in that state.
What rational WISDOT strategy requires the continuance of that stop in tiny (<10000) Tomah? Or is this again a case of "We do it because we have always done it this way" like so many other rail decisions?
One of the proposals for the Borealis early on was to go through Rochester (Mayo Clinic), but it was determined that would mean taking the line away from several towns along the Mississippi river route, and would pass through large areas with very low populations. Plus there was no evidence a lot of people wanted to go from Chicago to the Mayo Clinic by train, especially since you can fly commercially direct in 70 minutes, or drive from the Twin Cities in about 80 minutes. IIRC Mayo itself wasn't interested in the new train serving them.
The Obama administration was on the verge of OK'ing a Twin Cities - Chicago high speed rail line, but it fell through because Wisconsin decided to back out.
It's only now that I realize that this train is an extension of a Hiawatha schedule (sorry, I've totally gone into island mode). As such it makes even MORE sense for Minnesota to join the Midwest equipment compact.
charlie hebdoWhat rational WISDOT strategy requires the continuance of that stop in tiny (<10000) Tomah? Or is this again a case of "We do it because we have always done it this way" like so many other rail decisions?
Tomah is in the same ridership class (8,000 to 10,000 riders a year for just one daily train) as Columbus, WI and Wisconsin Dells, WI. It has a fair sized and very active Military Reserve base close to it. The city to question is Portage, WI which has the smallest ridership. My guess is Portage used to be a Milwaukee Road facility. It has a bus station shelter type depot (new).......No idea why they didn't just cancel that stop but it is what it is.
Also, WisDOT philosophy is based off ridership not population of the station stop. Pewaukee, WI has a small population but if it is ever implemented it will draw in a LOT of riders from the surrounding area.
The more I look at this (from a safe distance) the more I ponder the equipment question (force of habit). The Midwest coach fleet is for the states that purchased them and is based on the service as it existed at the time of purchase a decade ago. Wisconsin's Hiawatha service requires two sets that spend all day running north and south. So to run this new service, even though on schedule it's an extension of a Hiawatha run, requires two MORE sets of equipment. So does the Midwest fleet grow or does this eventually become an Airo set?
CMStPnP charlie hebdo What rational WISDOT strategy requires the continuance of that stop in tiny (<10000) Tomah? Or is this again a case of "We do it because we have always done it this way" like so many other rail decisions? Tomah is in the same ridership class (8,000 to 10,000 riders a year for just one daily train) as Columbus, WI and Wisconsin Dells, WI. It has a fair sized and very active Military Reserve base close to it. The city to question is Portage, WI which has the smallest ridership. My guess is Portage used to be a Milwaukee Road facility. It has a bus station shelter type depot (new).......No idea why they didn't just cancel that stop but it is what it is. Also, WisDOT philosophy is based off ridership not population of the station stop. Pewaukee, WI has a small population but if it is ever implemented it will draw in a LOT of riders from the surrounding area.
charlie hebdo What rational WISDOT strategy requires the continuance of that stop in tiny (<10000) Tomah? Or is this again a case of "We do it because we have always done it this way" like so many other rail decisions?
I drove through Tomah today on the way back from a family holiday near La Crosse. The Tomah depot is being completely renovated with a new concrete platform having been poured. Unfortunately wasn't able to be there when a train was due.
Yes, Tomah ridership in 2023 was just under 11000. Propinquity should also be a factor. Portage is only 17 miles from Wisconsin Dells and Tomah only 44. Combine all stops at the Dells, a major resort town and thus speed up the train times.
Duplicate
Here's some video I found on YouTube of the Borealis, including the test run done a few days before it started carrying passengers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtPYXAny-FU
wjstix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtPYXAny-FU
This video brings up a question. There are many searchlight signals. At one time when immplementing PTC searchlight signals were considered not desired. That was due to there was no way for the electronics to verify the aspect display. Was that requirement dropped or was there a way to verify the position of the lens?
blue streak 1This video brings up a question. There are many searchlight signals. At one time when immplementing PTC searchlight signals were considered not desired. That was due to there was no way for the electronics to verify the aspect display. Was that requirement dropped or was there a way to verify the position of the lens?
A long time ago and I believe it was Soo Line. Most if not all the signals along the Chicago to Twin Cities former Milwaukee Road Mainline were swapped out for tricolor signal lights back when they tore out the second mainline. Search lights are very rare and seem to be only maintained in very restrictive speed areas and probably as a suppliment to the tricolor signals. That is my assessment having watched Soo do the upgrade a long time ago.
Also, Soo switched the mainline over to true reverse CTC during single tracking. In Milwaukee times with double track and one big reason Milwaukee retained the double track is they could not afford the resignaling cost for true reverse CTC for the entire mainline and so had directional running CTC. During Milwaukee time the mainline had searchlight signals but they pointed almost entirely one direction on one mainline track and the other direction on the other mainline track of the double track.
Milwaukee trains would crossover onto the other double track for run arounds of slower or stopped trains but could not stay on that other track for long and had to return back to the track where the signals were all facing the engineer. It was not often Milwaukee trains would cross over to the opposing traffic main and typically they would use a siding on the directional traffic main (in areas of triple track). The crossovers between mainline double tracks were used but not as heavily as you would see on a reverse CTC double track mainline. Of course then when I was alive, the Milwaukee Road never had more than and average of 25-30 trains a day on that double track Chicago to Twin Cities mainline. The heavy traffic was gone after they pulled the plug on most passenger service.
I rode Amtrak on the Chicago to Twin Cities line in the Amtrak Orphan Annie days of former class I passenger cars. If it rained heavily, parts of the nice Milwaukee Road mainline signaling system would malfunction and the Amtrak train would need to run at reduced speed for sections of the line. Not sure what caused that but I remember it. Milwaukee was in pretty bad shape in the 1970's and it wasn't until they got the Fed money in the late 1970's and into the early 1980's where you started to see real improvement in operations with higher speeds and less of the BS.
Saw a video of today's Borealis speeding through Morton Grove. Consist has four Horizon and one Amfleet. Next stop: Glenview.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/nRrkUivXPzUDdTmQ/?mibextid=oFDknk
CMStPnP blue streak 1 This video brings up a question. There are many searchlight signals. At one time when immplementing PTC searchlight signals were considered not desired. That was due to there was no way for the electronics to verify the aspect display. Was that requirement dropped or was there a way to verify the position of the lens? A long time ago and I believe it was Soo Line. Most if not all the signals along the Chicago to Twin Cities former Milwaukee Road Mainline were swapped out for tricolor signal lights back when they tore out the second mainline. Search lights are very rare and seem to be only maintained in very restrictive speed areas and probably as a suppliment to the tricolor signals. That is my assessment having watched Soo do the upgrade a long time ago. Also, Soo switched the mainline over to true reverse CTC during single tracking. In Milwaukee times with double track and one big reason Milwaukee retained the double track is they could not afford the resignaling cost for true reverse CTC for the entire mainline and so had directional running CTC. During Milwaukee time the mainline had searchlight signals but they pointed almost entirely one direction on one mainline track and the other direction on the other mainline track of the double track. Milwaukee trains would crossover onto the other double track for run arounds of slower or stopped trains but could not stay on that other track for long and had to return back to the track where the signals were all facing the engineer. It was not often Milwaukee trains would cross over to the opposing traffic main and typically they would use a siding on the directional traffic main (in areas of triple track). The crossovers between mainline double tracks were used but not as heavily as you would see on a reverse CTC double track mainline. Of course then when I was alive, the Milwaukee Road never had more than and average of 25-30 trains a day on that double track Chicago to Twin Cities mainline. The heavy traffic was gone after they pulled the plug on most passenger service. I rode Amtrak on the Chicago to Twin Cities line in the Amtrak Orphan Annie days of former class I passenger cars. If it rained heavily, parts of the nice Milwaukee Road mainline signaling system would malfunction and the Amtrak train would need to run at reduced speed for sections of the line. Not sure what caused that but I remember it. Milwaukee was in pretty bad shape in the 1970's and it wasn't until they got the Fed money in the late 1970's and into the early 1980's where you started to see real improvement in operations with higher speeds and less of the BS.
blue streak 1 This video brings up a question. There are many searchlight signals. At one time when immplementing PTC searchlight signals were considered not desired. That was due to there was no way for the electronics to verify the aspect display. Was that requirement dropped or was there a way to verify the position of the lens?
What you are describing is Current of Traffic signalling, that was very common on most railroads that had multiple track territory in the 1920's and beyond. While the first CTC installation happened in the late 1920's and it did get implemented 'here and there' it did not get to 'cure' status until the late 1950's where the signal vendors were selling CTC as having 'double track' capacity on a single track CTC railroad. Many CTC installations were planned and implemented in the late 1950's and through the 1960's.
When trains operated on a track 'against' the Current of Traffic they did so on Train Order Authority without wayside signals - Passenger Trains were restricted to 59 MPH and Freight Trains to 49 MPH. Running against the Current of Traffic was normally conducted between Interlocking Towers. The B&O frequently established 'Temporary Train Order Stations' in concert with heavy maintenance gangs working to minimize the distances of trains operating against the Current of Traffic - I worked many TTO Stations - most in the middle of nowhere.
Up to the 21st Century - most, if not all, CTC installations were Wire Code Line based. Since the carriers have always reduced Maintenance personnel before any other - maintaining line wire suffered from the 1950's onward. With reducted maintenance the incidence of failure during inclement weather increased. Trains operating in signalled territory, where signals cannot be displayed for whatever the reason have trains operating at Restricted Speed - the trains must get verbal authority from the Train Dispatcher to pass any Control Point where signals cannot be displayed. Restricted speed must be maintained until a valid signal indication is observed by the Engine crew.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWhat you are describing is Current of Traffic signalling
Interesting history. World of difference in operation after Soo Line took over with the new signals. Soo also replaced a lot of jointed rail with welded rail.
In his book "The Soo Line - Milwaukee Road Merger Volume 2" Jerry Pinkepank talks about the signalling - siding program on the former MILW between Hastings, MN and Duplainville, WI. At the time he was AVP Operational Analysis for the Soo. The ex-MILW WB main was in dire shape and maintainence costs where so high that they barely had the money to install any CWR. What he proposed was removing sections of the WB main leaving long passing sidings and installing a spring switch at each end directing the train to the right-hand track, so no power switches. The Engineering department accepted his idea, as they calculated the extra expenses incurred from the spring switches would be less than replacing the rail in the WB main. That didn't happen because the Chief Signal Engineer got a quote ffrrom Safetran, for the lowest price per mile that Mr. Pinkepank had ever heard of.
BTW there is also a large VA Hospital at Tomah, WI. Another reason for a stop in Tomah.
JayBeeBTW there is also a large VA Hospital at Tomah, WI. Another reason for a stop in Tomah.
Near Fort McCoy, spent a few National Guard Annual Trainings there. Including one in mid-Feb spent almost the entire two weeks outdoors in a tent.....just a lovely place in the winter.
CMStPnP JayBee BTW there is also a large VA Hospital at Tomah, WI. Another reason for a stop in Tomah. Near Fort McCoy, spent a few National Guard Annual Trainings there. Including one in mid-Feb spent almost the entire two weeks outdoors in a tent.....just a lovely place in the winter.
JayBee BTW there is also a large VA Hospital at Tomah, WI. Another reason for a stop in Tomah.
Back in the.60's I recall traveling I90/94 when long convoys would head to Fort McCoy for summer exercises. Would take miles and miles to get past them.
Gramp CMStPnP JayBee BTW there is also a large VA Hospital at Tomah, WI. Another reason for a stop in Tomah. Near Fort McCoy, spent a few National Guard Annual Trainings there. Including one in mid-Feb spent almost the entire two weeks outdoors in a tent.....just a lovely place in the winter. Back in the.60's I recall traveling I90/94 when long convoys would head to Fort McCoy for summer exercises. Would take miles and miles to get past them.
I-95 in Virginia during the Summer would frequently have National Guard convoys headed to or from Camp A P Hill that is now known as Fort Walker.
Returning to te thread title, any updates on Borealis? I heard it was running late in WI due to signal outages, possibly from storms?
charlie hebdoReturning to te thread title, any updates on Borealis? I heard it was running late in WI due to signal outages, possibly from storms?
Email the lady that took over as WisDOT PM for the Amtrak relationship or post on Amtrak PR guy Mark Magulari on LinkedIn they should have decent stats on initial performance in about a month or two.
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