It's doubtful shaving 15 minutes from the 5 hour trip will save it or attract riders. Ridership dropped 5.5% in 2018.
https://amp.jconline.com/amp/3232540002?fbclid=IwAR0utO6bG3uTEMHt6Ol1P65xGCvELehTs9INT8SAUMVXcSmb-JmWCJvhN2w
That $3,000,000 is $108 per passenger. And remember that is per passenger not person and since most people buy a round trip ticket then the actual subsidy per person is close to double that. Much more cost effective to drop this little used train and use the money elsewhere until the trip time by rail can be comparable to bus and auto times when people will think about taking the train.
runnerdude48Much more cost effective to drop this little used train and use the money elsewhere until the trip time by rail can be comparable to bus and auto times when people will think about taking the train.
I would replace it with Amtrak Thruway busses so Amtrak doesn't lose all the revenued or ridership as it would if it just dropped the train with no Amtrak bus.
It's really too bad they cannot fix the train tracks and travel time on this route. Chicago to Indianapolis could really kick azz with a faster running time and it would also be a stepping stone to service to Louisville or Cinncinnatti or even both. Louisville really needs a central downtown station again. One of the items pointed out on the Floridian was when they closed the downtown Louisville Depot the replacement stop was not even on any mass transit routes and was far from downtown......so the Floridian lost a chunk of ridership with that depot closure event.
Amtrak already has Thruway bus connections in competition with the Hoosier State. Many times these connections to Amtrak trains have a total trip that are faster, more convenient time, and sometimes cheaper. There is the 11:00 AM bus #8255 and 2:30 PM bus #8857 which goes from Indianapolis to Chicago which connect to many trains. There is also the 7:15 AM bus #8893 and 12:50 PM bus #8895 which bypass Chicago going to Champaign IL, Bloomington IL, and Galesburg IL, and connecting to many trains which go through these towns.
You wonder why the 6:00 AM Hoosier State has low numbers. One factor is that Amtrak will book you on a later Thruway bus. Although we don't have the numbers, this is probably a pretty good corridor.
You can also see how easy it is for a new governor to cancel a corridor train. By the way, Indiana recently passed an 11 cent state gas tax, which gives them more money to spend on transportation. Go figure that out. Not long ago, the new Illinois governor was canceling its state trains. In Ohio the democratic governor worked hard to get federal money for a new corridor train, only to have the new republican governor refuse it. The new Wisconsin governor also refused federal money for a high speed corridor and even cancelled the locomotives for it. State corridor trains are at the mercy of political thought and sometimes budget.
Jim200Not long ago, the new Illinois governor was canceling its state trains. The new Wisconsin governor also refused federal money for a high speed corridor and even cancelled the locomotives for it.
Fortunately, those rail unfriendly governors of Illinois and Wisconsin were tossed out by the voters in 2018.
Jim200The new Wisconsin governor also refused federal money for a high speed corridor and even cancelled the locomotives for it.
Actually, he cancelled the Talgo trainsets for it. I was very happy about that we deserve a lot better than Talgo in Wisconsin.
Jim200State corridor trains are at the mercy of political thought and sometimes budget.
Wisconsin has been consistent with the Chicago to Milwaukee corridor since the early 1990's under Mayor Norquist with investment and monitoring of it. It's the other rail schemes that lack political support it has been leary of getting involved with. The proposed HSR system was thrown together at the last minute to get the Federal money. The trainsets were crap and picked via a non-bid process, some would say on a political whim. The Milwaukee to Madison routing was rushed into consideration without much thought or engineering as to station placement (they were going to primarily use the old Milwaukee Road station locations.........bad idea since the population has shifted in each city since they were constructed), the Milwaukee Road alignment was a good choice.
However, Watertown to Madison was and still is primarily riddled with 10-15 mph slow orders. Last they were not sure where to place the Madison depot and they had almost no time to do the proper engineering or prospective ridership studies to decide which location in Madison would be better.
So had they gone ahead with Chicago to Milwaukee with the $800 million, Wisconsin would be paying a kings ransom right now beyond the $800 million for everything they skipped before the project and getting things right that the proposal had wrong. In my view it was a good decision to push that more into the future until WisDOT has a better plan.
It's doing good with Chicago to Milwaukee and if Minnesota gets it's wish on a second Chicago to Twin Cities frequency, WisDOT will finally shift it's attention on the Milwaukee to West portion of the HSR plan. In a way they already have already started with station rehabilitation. Note that Portage and Tomah are getting their stations upgraded now and they only serve 1 train a day currently. They rebuilt Wisconsin Dells from the ground up. Columbus is in good shape and so is La Crosse.
I can't speak for other states but Wisconsin tends to throw the money where the political support is. Milwaukee to Green Bay was moving forwards until about 2010 when the fox river valley rail group that was promoting it, kind of faded away. Up until 2010 though they were getting close to funding an initial Milwaukee to Green Bay test train via the CN line through Duplainville..........which I think is the wrong choice again because the dog leg to get to Duplainville then head North is going to suck too much time out of the schedule. While it might be more expensive, more sensible to rebuild the former C&NW lakefront line over the bike trail that is there now. It was engineered for high speed passenger service North of Milwaukee. The CN line was last used for the Soo Line Laker which if I remember correctly was largely a milk run with 1920-1930's era equipment and not in any real hurry to get anywhere.
If they add a new frequency to the Twin Cities, I agree with Minnesota they need a Milwaukee West station in Pewaukee that will function a lot like the Milwaukee Airport station does now and gather folks from the suburbs vs downtown.
In my view HSR line should be: Milwaukee - Pewaukee - Oconomowoc - Watertown - Sun Prarie(iffy) - Madison..............they should drop the other intermediate stations for purposes of speed. I believe they had 2-3 more stations on the line per the previous plan.
So Portage (pop. 10,662) and Tomah (9093) get upgrades, Columbus (4991) is in good shape, and LaCrosse (51,834) might get a 2nd train - all good. But Madison, the 2nd largest city in Wisconsin and state capital (255,214), got nothing? Could it be because it votes heavily Democratic and the guy who made that decision, Walker is a Republican?
Talgo trains seem to work quite well in Sounder service and are very popular.
charlie hebdoSo Portage (pop. 10,662) and Tomah (9093) get upgrades, Columbus (4991) is in good shape, and LaCrosse (51,834) might get a 2nd train - all good. But Madison, the 2nd largest city in Wisconsin and state capital (255,214), got nothing? Could it be because it votes heavily Democratic and the guy who made that decision, Walker is a Republican?
Up until Doyle, Madison said and did nothing towards restoration of passenger service. Thats a problem. Second issue is the lines into Madison need a lot of capital investment to make a decent speed. Third issue is Madison has superb bus service between both Milwaukee and Chicago, while not the same thing it is heavily used and they present an anti-rail lobby because of the money they are making now. Just as the bus lines into Atlantic City, NJ did when folks tried to restore rail service there.
Historically, Milwaukee had good rail service to Chicago with two competing carriers and then post Amtrak 3 trains a day though minimal built political support for the corridor among the business community which liked the direct to CUS location near the loop. So Milwaukee has strong political support for passenger service no matter who is in Madison.
Madison the support is relatively weak Minnesota brings more to the table than Madison does because Minnesota is offering money as well as a local rail group pushing the politicians. If you can get Madison to duplicate that, then WisDOT would focus on Madison more. WisDOT is a political animal and that is how it works.
For some reason, I don't want to be on the bleeding edge of Talgo trains in deep snow country. It's great they work well on the West Coast. West Coast is not next to Chicago either where to get better utilization it might make sense to run the trains through CUS or break them up. I would not feel safe in a Talgo train running on METRA tracks that see 56 trains or more a day either.
CMStPnPUp until Doyle, Madison said and did nothing towards restoration of passenger service. Thats a problem. Second issue is the lines into Madison need a lot of capital investment to make a decent speed.
As long as the state assembly and state senate districts are so gerrymandered that the party in control receives a disproprtionately greater number of seats*# than they should receive based on how people cast their votes, they will be controlled by those receiving money from bus companies and the highway lobby.
* State Assembly GOP 63 of 99 seats (63.6%) popular vote share = 44.75%
# State Senate GOP 19 of 33 seats (57.58%); popular vote share = 52.31%
charlie hebdoAs long as the state assembly and state senate districts are so gerrymandered that the party in control receives a disproprtionately greater number of seats*# than they should receive based on how people cast their votes, they will be controlled by those receiving money from bus companies and the highway lobby. * State Assembly GOP 63 of 99 seats (63.6%) popular vote share = 44.75% # State Senate GOP 19 of 33 seats (57.58%); popular vote share = 52.31%
I guess I don't live in a red vs blue team world and lack of support at the grass roots level gives far more power to the bus lobby than political makeup of either house in Madison.
In my life observation in Wisconsin and even in Texas both sides of the political aisle have paid for additional Amtrak trains. The winning approach to getting that to happen was local political support among business leaders and constituents. In the case of Madison you have little to no grass roots support and you have at least one entrenched business group against. Opposition of the bus lobby could be overcome if you had at least a grass roots group that was arguing for and they could garner support of the business community. It would not matter what party held the majority seats in either chamber........in that case.
Where you run into issues is where there is little or no grass roots support for passenger trains, existing businesses are against it (bus lines), etc.
If Madison had it's act together politically and could point to local political support I might be interested in the party vs party analysis. However as I remember it, it was George Bush that started the Heartland Flyer in Texas to OKC. It was Walker who supported and sought funding for a lot of the Hiawatha improvements and expansion.
What Hiawatha expansion occurred on Walker's watch?
charlie hebdoWhat Hiawatha expansion occurred on Walker's watch?
He paid the CP millions of dollars for converting the route to all welded rail as well as adding a few crossovers for one.
Second I believe the size of the contracted fixed trainsets increased from 5 to 7 cars.
Third, he paid for the experimentation of adding a late night departure from Chicago.
I thought under Thompson before him, Republican Tommy Thompson extended the some of the Hiawatha service West out to Watertown, WI from Milwaukee during the I-94 reconstruction. Not sure why that was discontinued but again there is a bus line with those routes that uses the park/ride lots.........Wisconsin Coach Lines but I have no idea as to their position on the expanded Hiawatha service was or if they were against making it permanent. This was actually a rail expansion towards Madison. No real political support from Madison for this as they looked at it as a Milwaukee project.........which is a shame. Had they made the extension permanent............expanding to Madison would have been a LOT cheaper.
Tommy Thompson was very much a proponent of Amtrak. Also, Congressman Tom Petri, a northeastern Wisconsin republican, was involved in and headed the tranportation committee. He retired in 2015. Amtrak started to test run a train from Milwaukee up to Fond du Lac (in his district) when Amtrak still handled express shipments. He also was important in shutting down the Interstate Commerce Commission and ending the 55mph speed limit.
I wish people would forget about service to Madison. It's a political nitemare. Service to Green Bay is a non-starter. Low speed, CN traffic. Put a station at Hwy 16 near Pewaukee, and extend Hiawatha push-pull service to there. Provide new passenger cars. Double the Builder service to the Twin Cities on the current, faster route. Build a flyover outside of CUS that Metra can also use. Eliminate grade crossings north of Rondout. Tie in with the Midwest Rail Initiative. Build a service to be proud of.
GrampI wish people would forget about service to Madison. It's a political nitemare. Service to Green Bay is a non-starter. Low speed, CN traffic. Put a station at Hwy 16 near Pewaukee, and extend Hiawatha push-pull service to there. Provide new passenger cars. Double the Builder service to the Twin Cities on the current, faster route. Build a flyover outside of CUS that Metra can also use. Eliminate grade crossings north of Rondout. Tie in with the Midwest Rail Initiative. Build a service to be proud of.
If you live in Wisconsin the current Mayor of Milwaukee is all on board with extending the Hiawatha Service West. He jumped on my proposal to extend it to County Stadium for Brewers games in the Summer and thought it would be great to go even further West. So you have the current Mayor as a start supporting the idea. Now you need to convince the business community of Milwaukee which is not so convinced of restoring service West of Milwaukee.
Ran into opposition twice when I was part of a local group to resurrect the Milwaukee Road Cannonball service. We were able to get a Demo train running with a Budd SPV2000 for a week in the 1980's thanks to a small Congressional appropriation from Henry Ruess and the train was packed though it was only one ridable car. Milwaukee Road would not let passengers into the second trailing car as it did not meet Amtrak standards and was used only because Milwaukee had concerns over tripping of signals on the route with only one car (I never understood this because the Sperry Rail Service that they subscribed too used a single RDC type car).
Anyhow, you have to convince the business community of Milwaukee with some stats, show them how the Airport Station added ridership and that Pewaukee would do the same for only a marginal increase in operating expenses. That might sway them to support it or at least an experiment. I can tell you though from past experience the Milwaukee business community was not fully onboard with ressurecting the Cannonball. It would take a few presentations but maybe someone can convince them it makes sense now. In my view that is all that is standing in your way for an extension West. Once they are persuaded the last bit of reluctance your going to find is the City officials in Pewaukee that might not want to contribute to a depot or subsidy and/or Waukesha County officials.
Don't wait on groups like NARP or whatever they call themselves these days, they did squat in the 1980's except complain verbally.
CMStPnPMilwaukee Road would not let passengers into the second trailing car as it did not meet Amtrak standards and was used only because Milwaukee had concerns over tripping of signals on the route with only one car (I never understood this because the Sperry Rail Service that they subscribed too used a single RDC type car).
What you don't know and I also don't know if the Sperry Car was operating as a train or as a piece of MofW equipment.
The B&O among other carriers, found out that a single operating vehicle at track speed was through the various signal detection circuits before the relays associated with those circuits could activate. The B&O in the 1950's issued a 30 MPH restriction on ALL single vehicle operations - single unit diesels, Budd RDC's and anything else that operates as a single vehicle. CSX has continued that 30 MPH restriction to this day on all its lines.
And then we hear of UP & CN requiring Amtrak to operate an engine and seven cars for proper operation of their signal systems???????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWhat you don't know and I also don't know if the Sperry Car was operating as a train or as a piece of MofW equipment.
Well I saw two Sperry Cars on the Milwaukee growing up and this was in the 1970's and 1980s. One was a short red white and blue painted half a rail passenger car in length deal that looked like custom built.......rail defect detection.
They also had a full length RDC type car which looked like an old combine that was painted UPRR yellow........no gray roof just all yellow.
Both ran as single cars over the twin cities mainline. Both were stenciled for Sperry Rail Service. So maybe it was they had other precautions for the rail detection cars vs the trial run of the SPV2000? Beats me.
I don't understand the whole deal with the Kansas City Mule between St. Louis and KC but I can tell you it is happening as I travel to KC a lot and seen it myself, they have basically two bombardier coaches and a Amcafe and like 3-4 baggage cars at the end. One or two baggage is the new CAF type and the other two are the old heritage models. All I can say is the central Missouri lines I thought were flood prone or have poor drainage when it rains heavily. Wasn't that the issue with the former MKT line? This is former MoPac and I think it has similar issues with heavy rain and poor drainage I suspect but I am not an expert. I know it parallels a major river for part or a chunk of it's journey.
So could it be the extra cars help when the signals get shorted out? Beats me just a random guess there. Not sure if it is jointed rail or welded but my guess is it is still jointed. Reason I suspect still jointed is part of the Texas Eagle route that is former Mo-Pac is still jointed. Seems UPRR has not got around to welding all it's lines yet since merger.
CMStPnP BaltACD What you don't know and I also don't know if the Sperry Car was operating as a train or as a piece of MofW equipment. Well I saw two Sperry Cars on the Milwaukee growing up and this was in the 1970's and 1980s. One was a short red white and blue painted half a rail passenger car in length deal that looked like custom built.......rail defect detection. They also had a full length RDC type car which looked like an old combine that was painted UPRR yellow........no gray roof just all yellow.
BaltACD What you don't know and I also don't know if the Sperry Car was operating as a train or as a piece of MofW equipment.
Were they operating as a Train on Signal Indication or were they operating as MofW equipment on either a Track Car Line-up or later on a specific MofW track authority. They had to be operating on one rule set of the other.
I have never seen jointed vs. welded rail affect signalling speed, when maintained they provide the same electrical conductivity. In signalled territory, jointed rail had specific 'bond wires' welded between the ends of each stick. A cause of bad signals in the field can be broken bond wires - it is relatively common.
CMStPnPSo could it be the extra cars help when the signals get shorted out? Beats me just a random guess there. Not sure if it is jointed rail or welded but my guess is it is still jointed. Reason I suspect still jointed is part of the Texas Eagle route that is former Mo-Pac is still jointed. Seems UPRR has not got around to welding all it's lines yet since merger.
The Texas Eagle route between STL and Poplar Bluff is a secondary line. The mainline follows the east bank of the Mississippi, then crosses at Thebes and joins the ATK route at Poplar Bluff as part of a paired trackage arrangement.
The STL-KC line is definitely a mainline, and is double track STL-Jefferson City. West of there to KC it splits into two lines. Its busy enough that UP double tracked the only single track bridge east of Jeff City. Don't know if it is welded rail, but I have to believe that a line that busy, would be. The major parallel river is the Missouri.
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