The airplane may not be a lot of bit quicker between New York and Washington, but it is much quicker between New York and San Francisco or New York and Chicago.
Based on my experience (10 Amtrak trips to date this year, including five in coach), the coach crowd on Amtrak is not any worse than the herd that rides on Southwest Airlines or any other airline. However, being on the train for a long period of time seems to bring out the worst in some people.
One of the irritants that has not made it onto the airplanes is use of cell phones. They can be a major annoyance on a train, even if one is in a sleeper.
Over the past year I witnessed two unruly passengers on Southwest. The crew put them down quickly. In similar situations on Amtrak, the crew was very slow to react if they intervened at all. It is as if the Amtrak crew is afraid of creating a scene.
Sam1 Over the past year I witnessed two unruly passengers on Southwest. The crew put them down quickly. In similar situations on Amtrak, the crew was very slow to react if they intervened at all. It is as if the Amtrak crew is afraid of creating a scene.
The Amtrak trains that are handled on my territory will discharge one to two passengers a week into the hands of local police - what threshold they have for making that decision I don't know.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Sam1 Based on my experience (10 Amtrak trips to date this year, including five in coach), the coach crowd on Amtrak is not any worse than the herd that rides on Southwest Airlines or any other airline.
Based on my experience (10 Amtrak trips to date this year, including five in coach), the coach crowd on Amtrak is not any worse than the herd that rides on Southwest Airlines or any other airline.
Agreed. I'm sorry if my posting implied that Amtrak coach passengers were worse than airline coach passengers. My intent was to question the popular meme, repeated in the posting I replied to, that says "Amtrak is a land cruise, so turn it over to Hilton or Holland America". That doesn't jibe with the reality I observe on the trains. The folks who envision that contracting out the long distance trains will result in the nirvana of Cunard should acknowledge that it is entirely possible that the winning bidder might instead give us the purgatory of Allegiant Air.
Now it may be that a land cruise is a better business proposition than the current Amtrak long distance service (despite a history littered with the carcasses of the Marlboro, Golden Eagle, and GrandLuxe trains), but it would be a different service for a different clientele. The local public library could likewise turn a loss into a profit by selling all the books and renting video game cartridges instead.
Certainly we would be better off if Amtrak had the spirit of "let's try something different, and if it doesn't work, let's try something else, and keep doing so until we find a better way." But some of the various bright ideas in this forum don't exactly cohere. For example, I'm thinking that if Holland America cruise lines ever did take over operation of long distance trains, they probably wouldn't be replacing table-service diners with vending machines. Although I suppose they could make the machines look more upscale by decorating them with fruit carved up to look like birds and animals...
ecoli Agreed. I'm sorry if my posting implied that Amtrak coach passengers were worse than airline coach passengers. My intent was to question the popular meme, repeated in the posting I replied to, that says "Amtrak is a land cruise, so turn it over to Hilton or Holland America". That doesn't jibe with the reality I observe on the trains. The folks who envision that contracting out the long distance trains will result in the nirvana of Cunard should acknowledge that it is entirely possible that the winning bidder might instead give us the purgatory of Allegiant Air. Now it may be that a land cruise is a better business proposition than the current Amtrak long distance service (despite a history littered with the carcasses of the Marlboro, Golden Eagle, and GrandLuxe trains), but it would be a different service for a different clientele. The local public library could likewise turn a loss into a profit by selling all the books and renting video game cartridges instead. Certainly we would be better off if Amtrak had the spirit of "let's try something different, and if it doesn't work, let's try something else, and keep doing so until we find a better way." But some of the various bright ideas in this forum don't exactly cohere. For example, I'm thinking that if Holland America cruise lines ever did take over operation of long distance trains, they probably wouldn't be replacing table-service diners with vending machines. Although I suppose they could make the machines look more upscale by decorating them with fruit carved up to look like birds and animals...
The devil is in the detail.
One size does not fit all.
YMMV!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
How about this:
Holland America gets the sleepers and the diner, vending machines in the lounge car.
And/or bid out the train operations so that bidder who needs the least amount of subsidy - paid out per passenger - wins. Winning bidder keeps all revenue - that gives them profit motive.
travelingengineerFor what it is worth: My own experience in frequently enjoying one of the full Bedrooms (only five each in the usual two Sleeping Cars per LD consist) is that reservations thereof fill up quite rapidly upon first available eleven months in advance. Word has it that the Sleeping Cars generally and Bedrooms in particular are completely sold out way before departures of LD trains. So ... Apparently there is a portion of the traveling public that likes this service, are willing to pay the going price (BTW: five different price points), and probably would pay more, even if prices were raised (if subsidies are reduce or disappear). Some of us, like me, find air travel is anathema, except for those in a business that requires weekday office presence instead of wireless access, or for those that absolutely abhor the oft-noxious behavior of nearby airline passengers. There may be folks with sufficient disposable income or wealth, whose time is of no consequence, that choose this manner of transportation, for whatever reason: sights, destination or vaction visits, making on-board acquaintances, or simply stress-free experience.
So then, if the demand for this manner of service exceeds the demand as evidenced by allocating this resource by requiring bookings 10 months in advance, why doesn't Amtrak raise the price?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Until fewer people can afford to ride, and some of the bedrooms are empty? How about, instead, increasing your supply -- building more sleeping cars instead of baggage cars and baggage-dorms?
travelingengineerWord has it that the Sleeping Cars generally and Bedrooms in particular are completely sold out way before departures of LD trains. So ... Apparently there is a portion of the traveling public that likes this service, are willing to pay the going price (BTW: five different price points), and probably would pay more, even if prices were raised (if subsidies are reduced or disappear).
So a quick check on the SW Chief from CHI to LAX on November 7 shows that four family bedrooms remain. If you reserved one, the total cost one way would be $1428.00. How does that sort of accommodation price fit into the goal of providing basic transportation?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm So a quick check on the SW Chief from CHI to LAX on November 7 shows that four family bedrooms remain. If you reserved one, the total cost one way would be $1428.00. How does that sort of accommodation price fit into the goal of providing basic transportation?
Let's say there's two adults and two kids driving that distance. Your max time in the car is probably around nine or ten hours before the kids get unruly. So, at best, its a four day drive.
Its a 2100 mile drive, give or take. Assuming 30 MPG, we're looking at 70 gallons of gas. At a current US national average of $3.82 a gallon, that's $267.20.
You'd make it to about Omaha in day one. Hotels look to be around an average of $90 a night there. Day two would get you to Lakewood, CO. Hotels are about the same there as in Omaha ($90). Day three is a tough one, as the next closest place to stay is almost 11 hours away in St George Utah. At least hotels are cheap there ($75). Day four is a merciful six hours away and you've arrived, so no more hotels.
Meals would run you three a day for four days for four people. Which is 48. If we assume $6 a meal (we're eating fast food and not a lot, I guess) then our food costs are a minimum of $288.
So that's a total of $822. It wouldn't take much to push that well over $900. I broke the $1000 mark on a 5 day drive once, so its not that out there. The bedroom isn't cheap, but its not outlandishly so. Once you start factoring the oil change you're going to need before or after the trip, driver fatigue, and all that...its pretty tempting. And its a shorter trip at that.
If you get the family bedroom, it's cheaper, but with two minors' tickets and two adults, the total is $1700 one way on Nov. 7. If you flew, you could get bargain fares on Expedia, non-stop, for $476 total. I think 99 out of 100 families would fly.
The bigger picture here is that for the vast majority of people, whether in-a-hurry business folks, seniors or families with children, taking a train distances longer than 300-500 miles is not a choice they would make. If you can get from point A to point B in 3-8 hours by air, why would 99% take a train that may well take 30-45 hours, especially if it costs considerably more?
On the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to New York on November 7th the rail fare is $97. A Viewliner roomette costs $333 and a bedroom costs $934. Comparatively a room at the Hotel Roosevelt would cost $299 whilst a room at the Hotel Pennsylvania would cost $199 per night. These are moderately priced mid-town hotels.
According to the IG's 2005 report on long distance trains, if I remember correctly, the subsidy for sleeping car passengers was greater than for coach passengers. Whether that is still true, given the dramatic run-up in sleeping accommodation charges, is unknown.
Approximately 2.2 per cent of Amtrak's system passengers and 14.7% of the long distance train passengers book a sleeper. The cost is out of reach for most Americans and probably most overseas travelers.
Without the coach passengers there would be no long distance trains. There are not enough rich people riding trains to justify an all sleeping car consist, ala Broadway Limited, Twentieth Century Limited, etc. in a bygone era.
Sleeping car accommodations are possible only because of the commoners in the coaches and the vast majority of Americans who don't ride trains. Moreover, sleeping car passengers have their meals subsidized by the taxpayers as per previous discussions.
What is the justification for a government owned and taxpayer supported railroad catering to a small group of elites, i.e. sleeping car passengers?
dakotafred Until fewer people can afford to ride, and some of the bedrooms are empty? How about, instead, increasing your supply -- building more sleeping cars instead of baggage cars and baggage-dorms?
NittanyLion schlimm So a quick check on the SW Chief from CHI to LAX on November 7 shows that four family bedrooms remain. If you reserved one, the total cost one way would be $1428.00. How does that sort of accommodation price fit into the goal of providing basic transportation? Let's say there's two adults and two kids driving that distance. Your max time in the car is probably around nine or ten hours before the kids get unruly. So, at best, its a four day drive. Its a 2100 mile drive, give or take. Assuming 30 MPG, we're looking at 70 gallons of gas. At a current US national average of $3.82 a gallon, that's $267.20. You'd make it to about Omaha in day one. Hotels look to be around an average of $90 a night there. Day two would get you to Lakewood, CO. Hotels are about the same there as in Omaha ($90). Day three is a tough one, as the next closest place to stay is almost 11 hours away in St George Utah. At least hotels are cheap there ($75). Day four is a merciful six hours away and you've arrived, so no more hotels. Meals would run you three a day for four days for four people. Which is 48. If we assume $6 a meal (we're eating fast food and not a lot, I guess) then our food costs are a minimum of $288. So that's a total of $822. It wouldn't take much to push that well over $900. I broke the $1000 mark on a 5 day drive once, so its not that out there. The bedroom isn't cheap, but its not outlandishly so. Once you start factoring the oil change you're going to need before or after the trip, driver fatigue, and all that...its pretty tempting. And its a shorter trip at that.
oltmannd NittanyLion schlimm So a quick check on the SW Chief from CHI to LAX on November 7 shows that four family bedrooms remain. If you reserved one, the total cost one way would be $1428.00. How does that sort of accommodation price fit into the goal of providing basic transportation? Let's say there's two adults and two kids driving that distance. Your max time in the car is probably around nine or ten hours before the kids get unruly. So, at best, its a four day drive. Its a 2100 mile drive, give or take. Assuming 30 MPG, we're looking at 70 gallons of gas. At a current US national average of $3.82 a gallon, that's $267.20. You'd make it to about Omaha in day one. Hotels look to be around an average of $90 a night there. Day two would get you to Lakewood, CO. Hotels are about the same there as in Omaha ($90). Day three is a tough one, as the next closest place to stay is almost 11 hours away in St George Utah. At least hotels are cheap there ($75). Day four is a merciful six hours away and you've arrived, so no more hotels. Meals would run you three a day for four days for four people. Which is 48. If we assume $6 a meal (we're eating fast food and not a lot, I guess) then our food costs are a minimum of $288. So that's a total of $822. It wouldn't take much to push that well over $900. I broke the $1000 mark on a 5 day drive once, so its not that out there. The bedroom isn't cheap, but its not outlandishly so. Once you start factoring the oil change you're going to need before or after the trip, driver fatigue, and all that...its pretty tempting. And its a shorter trip at that. If the goal was to get to LA. They would fly. No family would waste precious vacation days driving when a few more bucks would save a week of vacation time. If the goal was to "see the USA", they would stretch the trip out, stopping a few days in Colorado, Utah, Grand Canyon, etc. to sight-see. A family might take the train to see the Grand Canyon, but who wants to schlep the family off the train at 3AM in Williams AZ?
I was making no arguments. Just a cost estimate versus driving cross country.
And you shouldn't generalize. My childhood was full of my parents burning vacation days for the two and a half or three day drive to Texas from Pennsylvania and two and a half to three days back.
BaltACD Sam1 Over the past year I witnessed two unruly passengers on Southwest. The crew put them down quickly. In similar situations on Amtrak, the crew was very slow to react if they intervened at all. It is as if the Amtrak crew is afraid of creating a scene. The Amtrak trains that are handled on my territory will discharge one to two passengers a week into the hands of local police - what threshold they have for making that decision I don't know.
I am not sure where your territory is located. If the Texas coppers get involved, they don't mess around with the bad guys. Readers may remember that last year the Dallas coppers had a shoot out on the Texas Eagle and killed an unruly passenger. Turns out he had pulled a gun, which is a very bad idea when Texas police want to have a little chat. I believe he and his lady friend were carrying drugs, which is an equally bad idea in Texas, unless your one of the hundreds of meth lab operators in east Texas, where practically anything goes.
I have also witnessed the U.S. Border Patrol pull passengers off the Sunset Limited in Alpine, TX. In one of the instances that I observed the bad guy was not cooperative and the border coppers had to chase him half way through town before they brought him down.
The folks I am talking about on Amtrak are the ones who sprawl over two or three seats, especially in the lounge car, engage in loud conservations, usually laced with an impressive array of four letter words, and show total disdain for their fellow passengers.
NittanyLion I was making no arguments. Just a cost estimate versus driving cross country. And you shouldn't generalize. My childhood was full of my parents burning vacation days for the two and a half or three day drive to Texas from Pennsylvania and two and a half to three days back.
My point, shared by and others, is that few families are going to spend either four+ days on the trains RT, or 7-8 days driving with kids to go, for example, on a vacation from CHI to LA. This is true when one, vacation time is limited and two, most kids these days do not want to spend so much time getting to the place they want to get to, and three, the cost is really no cheaper than flying there..
"My childhood was full of my parents burning vacation days for the two and a half or three day drive to Texas from Pennsylvania." Shoot, that probably only got you to the border of the Republic of Texas or just inside of it. It would have been another day to get to Brownsville or El Paso.
It is annoying to see people making nuisances of themselves by spreading themselves over several seats, making loud conversations (especially on their cellphones), or other wise showing little regard for other passengers. But, what about those who make themselves comfortable in lounge cars and read, taking up seats that could be used by other passengers who would like to take advantage of the better visibility of the outer world that the lounge cars afford? I have seen such in dome cars on the Canadian and in the Sightseer lounges on Amtrak trains.
Johnny
NittanyLionAnd you shouldn't generalize. My childhood was full of my parents burning vacation days for the two and a half or three day drive to Texas from Pennsylvania and two and a half to three days back.
When we were children, flying was uber-expensive! It is "bus fare cheap" these days.
"The Amtrak trains that are handled on my territory will discharge one to two passengers a week into the hands of local police - what threshold they have for making that decision I don't know."
From time to time I read in my local newspaper a story about police finding people carrying drugs on trains from the south to the New York area. I have had people tell me about seeing police with drug sniffing dogs come on a train and finding drugs but I've never seen that myself.
dakotafredYeah, coach is coach anymore ... whether it's on plane, train or bus. The cheap fares with which the airlines fill seats erased any distinction. When I was a lad, so many years ago, men donned suit and tie to ride coach on the train, and of course the women were similarly well-attired. On some passengers those outfits might be out of style or somewhat frayed ... but the effort at respectability was made.
Back in the 60's I can remember getting on the New Haven at Providence bound for New York. There were no seats; everyone had to stand until New Haven. Amtrak has put an end to those bad old days. On the other hand, I could buy an excursion ticket at Grand Central by paying a one way fare to Providence and 55¢ to come back.
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