Sam1-
In an earlier post, I suggested that mineral reserves off Hawaii are a source of wealth that might finance public transportation. 20% of the world's copper and 80% of the world's nickel are not enough?
There is an historical precedence for Hawaiian contribution to American railways. For better or for worse, the rainforests on the slopes of Kilauea volcano were logged for sugar and rubber plantations, and the hardwood used to supply ties for the Santa Fe Railway System early last century. The ohia lehua (Metrosideros polymorphia), which is sacred to the Hawaiian volcano goddess Pele, was "30% better than white oak" for ties; a 1907 contract by the Hawaiian Mahogany Lumber Company called for supplying 500,000 ties annually for five years (J. C. Conde and Gerald M. Best, Sugar Trains: Narrow Gauge Rails of Hawaii pp. 101-104, Felton, California: Glenwood Publishers, 1973).
If you can't think outside the box, maybe you need a new box!
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Phoebe Vet Let's see, we could get rail money by cancelling the 5.1 Billion Dollar USS Gerald R. Ford CVN 78 Or the As yet unnamed CVN 79. Or the as yet unnamed CVN 80, scheduled to be built to join the recently built USS George H. W. Bush CVN 77 and the recently built USS Ronald Reagan CVN 76. Perhaps we can park all those new aircraft carriers named after Republican Presidents end to end and just lay the HSR tracks along them. I would much rather they honored themselves by naming high speed trainsets after politicians. The trainsets would be more usefull.
Let's see, we could get rail money by cancelling the 5.1 Billion Dollar USS Gerald R. Ford CVN 78
Or the As yet unnamed CVN 79. Or the as yet unnamed CVN 80, scheduled to be built to join the recently built USS George H. W. Bush CVN 77 and the recently built USS Ronald Reagan CVN 76.
Perhaps we can park all those new aircraft carriers named after Republican Presidents end to end and just lay the HSR tracks along them.
I would much rather they honored themselves by naming high speed trainsets after politicians. The trainsets would be more usefull.
Yes, but when you get those military projects cancelled, what makes you think that transportation and especially trains will be at the front of the line? Ahead of health care for those without insurance, nursing homes for the frail seniors, education for the young, drug treatment for those in the thrall of addiction, prisons for those who prey on the weak.
Or is the reasoning that if the government can spend money on frivolous projects ahead of the other priorities I have mentioned that the government could equally well be spending money on a different set of frivolous projects (i.e. public works named after politicians) involving trains, equally well ahead of the other priorities I have mentioned? Or to the extent that spending public money on aircraft carriers is not a serious use of public money, that HSR is an equally unserious use of public money that the government could undertake?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
My sole purpose in posting that was to point out our misplaced priorities. No one ever says "And how, exactly, do you plan to pay for those five new nuclear powered aircraft carriers?".
When people see a need, they find the money somewhere. Government sets the priority.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I earned a handsome salary for decades because of my ability to think outside of the box. Amongst other things my teams took our Fortune 250 Corporation from a paper intensive entity to a nearly paperless one. Application of practicable and affordable technology solutions were the key to our success. We relied on what would work then and could be sold to executive management; we did not turn to solutions that worked 100 years ago.
The key in out of the box thinking is to come up with solutions that are workable and affordable. Ideally, they pay for themselves and do not rely on government subsidies. Out of the box solutions that are impracticable are in fact not out of the box at all.
See my post on the New Mexico Rail Runner Express, under Transit, for a good example of where affordable, workable passenger rail is a good fit. It suits a transport need for people in Belen, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe. And it is something New Mexico, which paid for most of it, could afford.
What the United States spends on defense or other programs has nothing to do with what how it should allocate stimulus funds to subsidize passenger rail. The key questions are where is passenger rail the optimum solution for a mobility problem; how much capacity is needed (lift and speed), as opposed to the needs in other countries, and how will it be funded?
So what is so wasteful about including Buffalo and Pittsburgh to Cleveland in the High-Speed Rail program, when the plan includes a network stretching from Montreal to Jacksonville? Why must Southern Florida be isolated from the rest of the nation? Sam1, as a Texan, maybe you can explain why Houston needs to be segregated from the rest of your state.
The "box" we need to think outside is the "corridor" limitation. Corridors will be developed anyway out of dire necessity. I am saying that we need to do more than just correct dire transportation problems, and actually work towards improvement. America must get up to speed with the rest of the developed world!
Also, I proposed a source of funding. I see no reason why a hoarded mineral reserve cannot be used to finance our future.
I agree that Cleveland to Buffalo and Pittsburgh should be in the Midwest network. Pittsburgh would have little 110-mph running; and would need Talgos to make any kind of time. Paynesville, Astabula, Erie, and Dunkirk might be intermediate stops to Buffalo; and Hudson, Lordstown, Youngstown, Homewood, East Rochester, and Sewickley might be intermediate stops to Pittsburgh.
Even the most optomistic level of service over the core between Toledo and Pittsburgh would be only a quarter of that of the NEC, come nowhere near justifying the high cost of HSR dedicated trackage, full grade separation, and electrification. As it is, I see only about 9 trains each way with 6 from Chicago, 2 from Pontiac, 2 to Buffalo, and 1 to Washington, DC with additional commuter schedules originating in Tolelo and Cleveland.
The Pittsburgh-Cleveland route doesn't need to be high-speed, although the terrain is not much worse than Concord, NH to Montreal (part of the proposed high-speed system). But for rail travel to be a viable alternative between the East and Midwest and to Florida, there must be some kind of increase in train frequency (more than once a day in the middle of the night).
MaglevThe Pittsburgh-Cleveland route doesn't need to be high-speed, although the terrain is not much worse than Concord, NH to Montreal
Actually 110 MPH regional HSR would be a good compromise. Correct about more than 1 trip a day. Daytime service of at least three a day on that route would connect to other runs east and west.
blue streak 1MaglevThe Pittsburgh-Cleveland route doesn't need to be high-speed, although the terrain is not much worse than Concord, NH to Montreal Actually 110 MPH regional HSR would be a good compromise. Correct about more than 1 trip a day. Daytime service of at least three a day on that route would connect to other runs east and west.
The only stretch between Pittsburgh and Cleveland where any sustained 110-mph running seems possible is about 20 miles between Ravenna and Niles along the CSX. A few additional 90-mph stretches may be practical with tilt trains between more restrictive curves. The wb Capitol was carded for 2 hrs 46 min (Spring-Summer 2008) for the 140 miles, a 51-mph average. Eb was 3 hrs 5 min. To be a competitive alternative, a 65-mph average that takes less than 2 hrs 9 min would seem to be a reasonable goal. Is this doable with half a dozen stops?
I'm compelled to remind myself that tilting trains are not necessary for high-speed travel. The curves dictate the speed of the train and only superelevation would fix those tight turns on your 90-mph train at a huge cost.
aegrotatio I'm compelled to remind myself that tilting trains are not necessary for high-speed travel. The curves dictate the speed of the train and only superelevation would fix those tight turns on your 90-mph train at a huge cost.
That's why we need the "clean piece of paper" approach like they did for the Interstate Highway system.
How effective would the interstate highway system be if they had just widened the existing route structure?
HarveyK400 blue streak 1 MaglevThe Pittsburgh-Cleveland route doesn't need to be high-speed, although the terrain is not much worse than Concord, NH to Montreal Actually 110 MPH regional HSR would be a good compromise. Correct about more than 1 trip a day. Daytime service of at least three a day on that route would connect to other runs east and west. The only stretch between Pittsburgh and Cleveland where any sustained 110-mph running seems possible is about 20 miles between Ravenna and Niles along the CSX. A few additional 90-mph stretches may be practical with tilt trains between more restrictive curves. The wb Capitol was carded for 2 hrs 46 min (Spring-Summer 2008) for the 140 miles, a 51-mph average. Eb was 3 hrs 5 min. To be a competitive alternative, a 65-mph average that takes less than 2 hrs 9 min would seem to be a reasonable goal. Is this doable with half a dozen stops?
blue streak 1 MaglevThe Pittsburgh-Cleveland route doesn't need to be high-speed, although the terrain is not much worse than Concord, NH to Montreal Actually 110 MPH regional HSR would be a good compromise. Correct about more than 1 trip a day. Daytime service of at least three a day on that route would connect to other runs east and west.
The Capitol runs on NS (ex-PRR via Alliance) between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The B&O route west of Pittsburgh was used for the last days of the Broadway.
The route is mixed bag as I recall. Conway to Alliance has grades and curves that keep things slow. From Alliance to Cleveland is pretty straight and flat.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
You are correct in that tilting trains are not necessary for high speed travel. The problem is the additional energy cost in recovering speed after a restriction with sufficient distance between restrictions; and the speed may only be an average of the high and low. With conventional trains, the low is lower and will take a greater distance for both braking and accelerating.
Some corridors, like Cleveland-Pittsburgh east of Niles, have numerous restrictive curves that would limit even tilting trains below 79 mph and frequent curves that would prevent recovery to speeds much above 90 mph. A composite route using the CSX from Ravenna to Niles would allow 110 mph with even conventional equipment; but the NS from Cleveland to Ravenna appears to have predominantly 1.5-degree (se=2.5"?) curves good for 73 mph conventional and 96 mph tilt every few miles which makes 110 mph possible but impractical other than for a small amount of delay recovery.
Tilting equipment offers a safer (for standing and for walking to the toilet or food service car), more comfortable ride at 20-30% faster speeds without the host railroad increasing cant (curve superelevation) to levels that expose freight trains to a greater risk of derailment and costly wear of wheels and rails. Even on the NEC, superelevation is held to 4 inches, the equivalent of raising the allowable cant deficiency from 3 to 5 inches. Tilting equipment, limited by the high center of gravity and weight of the F59 to 7 inches cant deficiency, offers more improvement for marginally more expensive equipment without substantial costs for curve reduction or increasing cant, spirals, and realignment for existing curves.
aegrotatioI'm compelled to remind myself that tilting trains are not necessary for high-speed travel. The curves dictate the speed of the train and only superelevation would fix those tight turns on your 90-mph train at a huge cost.
Even if there were 15 trains a day each way which is much less than the NEC, how could a "clean sheet" begin to justify even a 100-year investment that in California is estimated to cost on average (rural and urban, plain and mountain) around $60M/mile and $0.6M/mile/year? That comes to $0.27/mile/passenger (200 psgrs/train) just for capital without the costs of money or operations. What external savings and social benefits such as road improvements, safety, health, and so forth might be acheived even if fares, like Acela, cover operations?
Are you refering to the Interstate right of way width? Even so, 150-200 mph trains were barely a gleam in the eye in 1952, so neither was the issue of curvature to accommodate railways. And furthermore, the Interstates were desired to compete with, if not replace, railways and the robber barons that ran them.
HarveyK400 Even on the NEC, superelevation is held to 4 inches,
Harvey-
I'm not sure you have this right. I believe the NEC has 6" superelevation. The Conrail max was 4", except on the Hudson Line where they maintained 6" for NY state. I think 6" is the max allowable per the FRA.
NS has 5" superelevation on the ex-SOU main from Charlotte to Atlanta to allow 60 mph on 3 deg. curves for intermodal trains.
oltmanndHarveyK400 Even on the NEC, superelevation is held to 4 inches, Harvey- I'm not sure you have this right. I believe the NEC has 6" superelevation. The Conrail max was 4", except on the Hudson Line where they maintained 6" for NY state. I think 6" is the max allowable per the FRA. NS has 5" superelevation on the ex-SOU main from Charlotte to Atlanta to allow 60 mph on 3 deg. curves for intermodal trains.
I did some reverse-engineering, and 4" cant (CR max) works out on the NEC south of New York. North of New York may be different; but I understand Amtrak had a waiver for 5" underbalance that works out for the predominant 2-degree curves with 3 inches cant and pre-Acela 75-mph cab signal limit.
Interesting about the NS. Most curves seem to be 1.5-dergree; so maybe it is an isolated case where slowing was more costly than track maintenance. That's a lot more cant than most railroads would tolerate nowadays.
ATSF had a rare 5" cant on a 2-degree curve at a former junction point at Ancona, 5 miles "west" of Streator, IL, allowing uninterrupted 70 mph running, at least for intermodals.
CR reduced the cant on the Kalamazoo-Detroit line in the 1980's despite the relatively low volume of freight traffic. For a while, Amtrak was limited to 60 mph over long stretches where at least 65 mph could have been permitted. 4 inches cant and 5 inches underbalance would allow Amtrak a nominal 90 mph. If longer spirals entering and leaving curves are still in the alignment, cant might be restored to increase speeds.
I was just reading on the www.recovery.gov web site about the ARRA funds going to Amtrak. It indicates that Amtrak was granted funds to return 15 diesel locomotives, 21 long distance cars and 60 amfleet cars to service.
Does anyone know the status of this work and where the equipment will be used?
Bicycle Rider IndyI was just reading on the www.recovery.gov web site about the ARRA funds going to Amtrak. It indicates that Amtrak was granted funds to return 15 diesel locomotives, 21 long distance cars and 60 amfleet cars to service. Does anyone know the status of this work and where the equipment will be used?
Rather than a solid train of Horizon coaches, both Hiawathas now are running with 2 Amfleet and 3 Horizon coaches.
As I just posted in a different thread, Amtrak should reconsider where the Superliner cars go and how they should be configured.
Bicycle Rider Indy I was just reading on the www.recovery.gov web site about the ARRA funds going to Amtrak. It indicates that Amtrak was granted funds to return 15 diesel locomotives, 21 long distance cars and 60 amfleet cars to service. Does anyone know the status of this work and where the equipment will be used?
Information regarding Amtrak's overhaul and repair work is shown in the Monthly Performance Report. It can be found on Amtrak's website under Other Reports. The latest posted report is May 2009.
I don't look at every monthly report; I look at the quarterly reports to pick up trends. The data for one month is not a good indicator of annual or longer term trends.
The latest quarterly report that I have looked at is the March 2009 report, which shows the results for the first six months of FY09. Details regarding the overhaul and report work begins on page A-4.13. This information is updated monthly. Accordingly, the May report may shown a change in the budget (plans) as a result of the ARRA funds. In any case, the information will be in A-4, but it may start on a different page.
Great suggestion. Here is some info I found on the Amtrak site
http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/ARRA/Amtrak_ARRA_Project_Summaries_Recoverygov.pdf
Bicycle Rider Indy Great suggestion. Here is some info I found on the Amtrak site http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/ARRA/Amtrak_ARRA_Project_Summaries_Recoverygov.pdf
From that report:
This project includes the following improvements:
*Blast Curtains/Mylar: Site hardening through the introduction of blast curtains to reduce the number of injuries resulting from an attack
*Bollards/Fencing/Hardening: A variety of hardening activities including the placement of bollards around the perimeter of stations to provide greater
standoff and protection from a Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device (VBIED) as well as the installation of high security fencing to protect critical
facilities, bridge and tunnel approaches, and selected areas of the right of way
*CCTV: Installation of surveillance cameras in specified areas throughout Amtrak stations and facilities that will be connected through an integrated
video management system
*Airborne Particulate Detection Systems: Implementation of strategies to mitigate chemical or biological threats by installing systems that integrate
sensors and detectors with CCTV systems, HVAC and Access Control Systems
Blasts/HVAC Analysis Mitigation: Vulnerability and engineering assessment of critical infrastructures and is used to devise measures to protect against WMD threats
I have a great idea that will go a long way toward balancing the federal budget. We can eliminate the Orwellian Department of Homeland Security. The entire agency is so paranoid that it should be defined as a mental illness, and they are throwing hundreds of billions of dollars down the rat hole protecting us from threats that exist mostly in the minds of terrorphobics.
I"m glad I am old. I don't want to live in the totally surveiled society that we are evolving into.
Great News:
Passenger car no. 25103, damaged a few years ago in a yard collision but now completely refurbished -- complete with that "new car" interior smell -- was shown off Monday at Amtrak's maintenance facility in Bear. More than 100 hard-hatted workers joined Amtrak president and CEO Joseph Boardman in celebrating completion of its restoration.The car, refitted at a cost of about $687,000, will rejoin the Amtrak fleet next week and will be used on long-distance routes stretching from Toronto to Miami.
Here is a clip from a news story on the first car rehabilited with the funding from the ARRA. Great News for Amtrak and this should help the car shortage.
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