I can't say much about stuff outside the NEC, but doesn't Acela have a nearly 100% farebox recovery rate, and didn't they just add $1 to every ticket to fund 20 new coaches to expand each trainset's capacity?
I haven't seen the numbers; but Spain's AVE network seems to be doing well by the accounts from the Midwest High Speed Rail Assn tour this past week. Their big thing is the percentage of traffic diverted from air. The larger market is auto use for intercity travel. One has to wonder how this would translate for the 200 mph line between New York and Chicago that was proposed by someone. Furthermore, this isn't a "spade-ready" stimulus project that could be completed in a couple of years.
Separate trains would branch from New York and Chicago to reach Pittsburgh, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. Buffalo would have sevice to Chicago through Cleveland with an upgraded or new line from New York to Buffalo. Additional regional services would run between these cities. A few trains could run through via Pittsburgh; but 6-7 hours between New York and Chicago is hardly competitive with air.
Looking at maps, I was struck by a couple opportunities for high speed rail: the New Jersey Turnpike seems to have much broader curves between New York and Philadelphia, and a route through Philadelphia's suburban subway could avoid the reversal of train direction at 30th Street for trains heading west to Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.
The basic problems in the NEC are the need for new catenary south of New York, where generally the track could take higher speeds, and the problem with the Metro North alignment between New Rochelle and New Haven, where curves sharply limit speeds and track centers don't permit tilting trains to use their tilt.
All the fastest and most pretigious PRR NY-Midwest limiteds use the "NY-Pittrsburgh Subway" at Zoo Interlocking, bypasing 30th Street. Philadelphia passengers could board at North Philadelphia or at Paoli.
daveklepper All the fastest and most pretigious PRR NY-Midwest limiteds use the "NY-Pittrsburgh Subway" at Zoo Interlocking, bypasing 30th Street. Philadelphia passengers could board at North Philadelphia or at Paoli.
Unfortunately, the area of North Philadelphia Station is not the neighborhood that I'd want to get on/off a train nowadays. You can still board at Ardmore or Paoli.
The best solution to the problem of 30th Street Station's location is to finish what the Pennsy had originally planned. There was supposed to be a turning loop just South of the station, allowing trains from New York to stop at the station, continue forward through the loop, and back to Zoo Interlocking, then head West. No reversing moves required.
I was suggesting using the suburban line through downtown Philadelphia to a tunnel crossing of the Delaware River to the vicinity of Merchantville as part of a new high-speed route along the New Jersey Turnpike to a point of intersection at the west end of Meadows Yard.
Alternatively, build a connection from SEPTA (the ex-Reading) to the NEC where the lines intersect at North Philadelphia (no stop). This continues to use the older, slower ex-Pennsylvania line through New Jersey.
My whole point is to get to downtown Philadelphia rather than using 30th Street regardless of it being one of the most beautiful railroad stations.
HarveyK400 I was suggesting using the suburban line through downtown Philadelphia to a tunnel crossing of the Delaware River to the vicinity of Merchantville as part of a new high-speed route along the New Jersey Turnpike to a point of intersection at the west end of Meadows Yard. Alternatively, build a connection from SEPTA (the ex-Reading) to the NEC where the lines intersect at North Philadelphia (no stop). This continues to use the older, slower ex-Pennsylvania line through New Jersey. My whole point is to get to downtown Philadelphia rather than using 30th Street regardless of it being one of the most beautiful railroad stations.
Center City Phila keeps creeping west toward 30th St with most of the new office construction in the past couple decades located in the mile between City Hall and the Schuylkill. I suspect the convenience to commuter rail at Suburban Sta. and 30th St. and the Market St. Line and Subwy-Surface routes were major factors in this, but I don't discount the effect of Metroliner Service out of 30th St as a part of the pull.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Some comments have made about connected and overlapping corridors such as New York - Carolina - Atlanta - New Orleans and Kansas City - Texas; but what about Chicago - Tennessee - Atlanta - Florida? Anyone think there are viable corridor opportunities with tilt equipment to overcome curve restrictions?
TomDiehl The best solution to the problem of 30th Street Station's location is to finish what the Pennsy had originally planned. There was supposed to be a turning loop just South of the station, allowing trains from New York to stop at the station, continue forward through the loop, and back to Zoo Interlocking, then head West. No reversing moves required.
This thread's Amtrak's future, not necessarily high speed, or electrification. You won't get the full benefit of the turning loop as long as you have to change locomotives, diesel vs electric. I haven't paid attention for a while, but for several years all Amtrak trains west of Philly changed power when they changed direction at 30th St. Others who know better can correct me, but I believe if anything's electric now it's just the Philly-Harrisburg trains, New York-Harrisburg and west still change power and direction at 30th St.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance TomDiehl The best solution to the problem of 30th Street Station's location is to finish what the Pennsy had originally planned. There was supposed to be a turning loop just South of the station, allowing trains from New York to stop at the station, continue forward through the loop, and back to Zoo Interlocking, then head West. No reversing moves required. This thread's Amtrak's future, not necessarily high speed, or electrification. You won't get the full benefit of the turning loop as long as you have to change locomotives, diesel vs electric. I haven't paid attention for a while, but for several years all Amtrak trains west of Philly changed power when they changed direction at 30th St. Others who know better can correct me, but I believe if anything's electric now it's just the Philly-Harrisburg trains, New York-Harrisburg and west still change power and direction at 30th St.
You say that like it's an absolute that the comments must follow only the thread title. Like that ever happens.
Change of power or not, the Pittsburgh bound Pennsylvanian has to back up from 30th Street to Zoo Interlocking, then run forward toward the West. The loop would eliminate the backing move, which is run under speed restrictions.
That is a very expensive solution to build a turning loop right in the heart of downtown Philadelphia. Of course it's just tax dollars so let's buiild us a monument to the government. The obvious solution that costs vritually nothing is to ressurect North Philly as the stop and make it totaly inaccessible to the local area. It might take a twenty foot bullet proof fence and a shuttle to 30th street but it could be a readily available transfer point that served the PRR well for nearly fifty years and still exists.
As far as the title of this discussion "Amtraks Future" That is the ultimate definition of an oxymoron in my opinion.
As long as there is only one slow train between Pittsburgh and New York, backing between Zoo and 30th Street is more rational than any construction of a loop or N Philadelphia connection.
High speed between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia is a dream that, as far as I know, has not been quantified for cost, ridership, and impacts. After that, is it fair to compare the proportions of investments and trips?
FYI, I just got an e-mail about the 2nd Annual Transportation & Infrastructure Conference in Washington, DC March 11-13 co-hosted by NARP. The scope includes transit as well as Amtrak and HSR. Sorry, I don't have a link.
I just wish I could afford to go; but getting there, registration, and three nights in Washington are too prohibitive. Another form of pay to play that we in Illinois know too well. Even if the Washington tradition of awarding everybody for anything is honored and consumes a lot of time, there are still the values of networking and face time.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/493917.html
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
You write really negatively about N Philly.
Maybe some redevelopment money would be well spent where the Ex-Reading, ex-Pennsylvania and Broad St lines cross. Temple University is 1-2 stops away, and Temple & Shriners Hospitals are a couple stops in the other direction along Broad St; so a research park, offices, commercial, and residential mixed-use development seems feasible and might spur redevelopment in the surrounding area.
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