CTA's proposal in 1958 to operate third-rail equipped PCC's in local service on CA&E between Forest Park and Wheaton is rather well-known. However, it is questionable how serious this proposal was for a variety of reasons. The proposed operation extended beyond CTA's legally established service area and would have required action by the General Assembly. The proposal did not include any method of funding the operation. Any kind of operation by CTA into Dupage County was politically unfeasible at the time.
Also, the Illinois Prairie Path was one of the first rail-to-trail conversions and came into existence shortly after the formal abandonment of CA&E in 1961. As an urban trail, it is quite popular and heavily used.
I think you will find genuine rural areas between St. Louis and Bellville with farms. And Pacific Electric's LA - Long Beach line, the last to be bussed and the first to be revived as light rail, traversed only settled communities without real rural areas by the time the USA entered WWII.
Settled areas are one thing, but a business core and many opportunities for employment are another. If two or more such are connected by light rail, especially if not contiguous, then i would judge the line to be an interurban line.
Of course up to about 1939, there were still farms abutting both the Brighton and the Culver Brooklyn BMT lines, now the B & Q and the F. And my relatives did not say "We will take the subway to Manhattan." They said "We will take the train to the City." If they did not remember the days of steam engines, they did remember suface operation of gate elevated cars with traps and steps and trolleypoles and entrance to Manhattan either via the Brooklyn Bridge or the Fulton Ferryboat.
And you are entitled to your definition. As I am with mine.
In today's world where there is sufficient traffic for a form of rail transportation it is urban. With the sprawl of today's communities there is no 'inter'. One community's leaving sign is the next community's welcome sign.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Firelock76 Needless to say I don't live in that part of the country, but if commuter rail is as overcrowded there as you say it is it and the CA&E right-of-way is still intact it would make perfectly good sense to re-establish light rail service along it. And all-electrified, certainly. Mind you, watch the NIMBYs and BANANAs come shrieking out of the woodwork if it's tried. Hopefully, I'd be absolutely wrong on that.
Needless to say I don't live in that part of the country, but if commuter rail is as overcrowded there as you say it is it and the CA&E right-of-way is still intact it would make perfectly good sense to re-establish light rail service along it.
And all-electrified, certainly.
Mind you, watch the NIMBYs and BANANAs come shrieking out of the woodwork if it's tried. Hopefully, I'd be absolutely wrong on that.
Overcrowded (rush hour) on many trains and given the amount of freight on both UP-West and BNSF, there's little chance of additional peak trains.
It could serve places that now are commuter suburbs, such as Warrenville, Batavia, Geneva and Wayne, not served by Metra. Of course the CA&E has been the Prairie Path for years and it could not revert to railroad status. But we can dream!!
CSSHEGEWISCH charlie hebdo I wish we still had the CA&E, in a modern version, of course. And certainly not diesel powered, which generally seems archaic to me. Most of CA&E's territory was and is adequately served by existing suburban operations: the UP West Line to Wheaton, BNSF to Aurora and MILW West Line to Elgin. Even if through service over CTA continued, CA&E probably would not have lasted much longer than it did, also see CNS&M. What is so archaic about diesel-electric motive power??
charlie hebdo I wish we still had the CA&E, in a modern version, of course. And certainly not diesel powered, which generally seems archaic to me.
I wish we still had the CA&E, in a modern version, of course. And certainly not diesel powered, which generally seems archaic to me.
Have you recently ridden the UP West or BNSF lines at rush hour? Often packed, SRO. Beyond Wheaton, the CA&E (with an intact ROW all the way to Quincy St.) would provide service to communities either not currently directly served by Metra that have grown tremendously since 1955 or areas in towns served that are now quite distant from the Metra stations.
Electric is simply better in many ways, IMO: noise, pollution, acceleration, to name three.
Previous three posts are just great. Thanks
Falcon48In the unlikely event anyone wants to dig into this further, see the court decision in State of Illinois v. United States, 273 F. Supp 83 (1962), upholding the ICC decision authorizing abandonment of the North Shore, which has an extensive discussion of the "interurban" issue ... it should be available on a non-subscription public legal research site (like "Findlaw") at 213 F. Supp. 83 (1962).
Ask and ye shall receive.
In the unlikely event anyone wants to dig into this further, see the court decision in State of Illinois v. United States, 273 F. Supp 83 (1962), upholding the ICC decision authorizing abandonement of the North Shore, which has an extensive discussion of the "interurban" issue. Unfortunately, I can't attach my copy to this note (probably because of my lack of computer skills), but it should be availabe on a non-subscription public legal research site (like "Findlaw") at 213 F. Supp. 83 (1962). It was affirmed per curiam (i.e., without a written opinion) by the Surpeme Court in Illinois v. United States, 373 U.S. 378. Just some more light bedtime reading.
wjstix INTERURBAN n. A railroad connecting cities or towns. - Webster's Student Dictionary, 1996.
INTERURBAN n. A railroad connecting cities or towns.
- Webster's Student Dictionary, 1996.
Earlier replies have already discussed this at some length. Many years ago, a famous Supreme Court justice commented on the definition of "obsenity". I can't quote him exactly, but he said something to the effect that he couldn't define the term, but he know it when he saw it. The term "interurban" in railroading is in somewhat the same boat. But, in general, it referred to a "trolley" railroad between cities. As another commentor already mentioned, interurbans were usually (but not always) built to lighter standards than conventional railroads and powered by overhead trolley wire. But there were many exceptions. The North Shore Line, the CA&E and the South Shore Line in the Chicago area were generally considered "interurbans" through the 1920's, but were mostly built to conventional railroad standards (and the CA&E was mostly powered by 3rd rail).
But the answer to "what is an interurban" also depends on why the question is being asked. For example, the old Interstate Commerce Act, which gave the Interstate Commerce Commission extensive regulatory authority over the nation's rail system, contained broad exclusions for electric interurban railroads not operated as part of the steam railroad transportation system (what we would call the "general railroad system" today") . There were also "interurban" exclusions in other Federal railroad legislation. As detailed in the Hilton-Due book, the ICC struggled for years with the question of what railroads were covered by these exclusions, and there are a good number of ICC decisions discussing the status of individual "interurban" railroads.
The way the ICC ultimately sorted this issue out was that electric railroads which had interline ticketing arrangements with steam railroads or handled interline frieght with them were not "interurban" railroads but were part of the steam RR system of transportation and subject to the same rules that applied to steam railroads. Based on this, "interurbans" like the Pacific Electric, North Shore, South Shore, CA&E and many others were ultimately held to not be "interurbans" for purposes of Federal railroad regulation.
This, by the way, is the reason that the hotly contested abandonment of the NSL in the early 1960's was handled and approved by the ICC. If the ICC had considered NSL to be an "interurban", it would have had no jurisdicition over the abandonment (as the statutory "interurban" exclusion covered construction and abandonment of rail lines). But the ICC held (in accordance with its earlier classificaion of NSL) that the railroad was not an "interurban" and that the proposed abandonemnt was subject to its jurisdiction.
Probably more than you never wanted to know.
New Hampshire and Vermont Spingrield Terminal was similar but also handled freight.
I have heard the Mount Mansfield Electric RR, that ran about a dozen miles from Stowe, VT to the CV connection at Waterbury, referred to as a rural trolley. The line folded in the depression shortly before the CCC cut ski trails on Mt Mansfield. If it had only held on a little longer.
Probably not. It certainly is an ex-interurban, and now can be called a freight-only interurban or an electric freigiht switching railroad like Niagra Junction was.
Regarding Iowa, should we consider the Mason City to Clear Lake line of Iowa Traction to be a still electrically operating interurban, although now for freight only?
Absolutely. Cader Rapids and Iowa City met every definition of an interurbsn, and so did the Ceder Falls and Northern.
Don't forget Iowa's CRANDIC. It traveled between Iowa City and Cedar Rapids and was better known as the "Vomit Comet" during WWII when Navy trainees rode up to CR for fun & games. I rode it to go home at Thanksgiving and Christmas, connecting with C&NW to Carroll IA.
Actually, the overload of traction motors was solved for mu cars at the same time it was solved for diesel locomotives, by the AC hysterises-non-sychronous brush-free computerr-controlled motor, which is now in use in nearly all diesel-electric and electric locomotives, streetcars, light-rail cars, trolley and battery buses, and sububan mu cars. As an economical-with-regard-to-land-use solution to highway congestion, light rail is making a comeback, and in certain cases its characteristics put it sqarely under the definition of an interurban line. St. Louis - Bellville, Los Angeles - Long Beach are probably the purest examples.
Regarding SEPTA's 100. It is a suburban light rapid transit line. In some respects it is an interurban line, but it is completely grade-separated, which certainly means rapid-transit, not interurban. Up to sometime in 1949, it did regularly host genuine interurban cars of the genuine interurban Lehigh Valley Transit's Liberty Bell route.
Even though it is not electrified, I would label the Camden - Trenton NJT River Line a "Diesel Interurban," because in all other respects it operates like a typical interurban, including street-running in both Camden and Trenton.
The plot thickens, I think, when you look at the definition a bit more empirically.
Little doubt in my mind that the 'electrified' part is largely circumstantial, driven by contemporary trends in technology and economics that were sometimes extremely transient. By the time practical diesel truck motors and associated transmissions (epicyclic, fluid, or even improved friction-clutch) were available, had there been remaining demand for interurbans in general you'd have seen extensive 'dieselization' or even conversion of older equipment to motor rather than wire use.
Likewise, a big part of "interurban" service was that it served the region between the urban points. Third rail wasn't only deprecated because of capital-related reasons and power losses: it was considerably less safe for passengers to board or depart a car at non-platform locations or the usual sort of flag stop.
P&W in Philadelphia is an interesting case: it wasn't an 'interurban' at all, but a steam railroad converted to run interurban-type cars, with some interurban-type amenities appended to it -- a case could be made for similarity with the New York Dyre Avenue #5 line (or the prospective run-through of cars on the NYW&B as originally mentioned) where the operation on the dedicated part of the ROW was anything but 'interurban' style.
Meanwhile, we have the push in the '20s toward increased speed, which is fundamentally difficult to reconcile with a number of 'interurban' service features even given the overload capacity of electric MU traction for rapid acceleration (and true regenerative dynamic braking that 'might' be practically used for power cost saving as well as brakeshoe conservation). As noted, if you can preserve the useful part of serving demand that does not easily parcel into stations, providing high speed on other parts of the route adds to perceived value and 'take rate' for many of the riders. But there comes a point where no streetcar local model doesn't waste more time than even 90-mph running elsewhere contributes -- let alone door-to-door convenience in any weather with largely-amortized fixed expenses, as in the personal automobile on free 'good roads'...
charlie hebdo CSSHEGEWISCH The consensus tends to define an interurban as electrically powered, with direct suspension overhead and trolley pole pickup. They are built to lower engineering standards than steam railroads with tight curves and lighter rail. Equipment is shorter and narrower than steam roads, using radial couplers to handle the curves. Freight service is minimal to non-existent. Service tends to be frequent with one or two car trains between relatively nearby cities. Mostly true. But the CA&E (aka Roarin' Elgin; Great 3rd Rail) was certainly an interurban and mostly third rail pickup.
CSSHEGEWISCH The consensus tends to define an interurban as electrically powered, with direct suspension overhead and trolley pole pickup. They are built to lower engineering standards than steam railroads with tight curves and lighter rail. Equipment is shorter and narrower than steam roads, using radial couplers to handle the curves. Freight service is minimal to non-existent. Service tends to be frequent with one or two car trains between relatively nearby cities.
The consensus tends to define an interurban as electrically powered, with direct suspension overhead and trolley pole pickup. They are built to lower engineering standards than steam railroads with tight curves and lighter rail. Equipment is shorter and narrower than steam roads, using radial couplers to handle the curves. Freight service is minimal to non-existent. Service tends to be frequent with one or two car trains between relatively nearby cities.
Mostly true. But the CA&E (aka Roarin' Elgin; Great 3rd Rail) was certainly an interurban and mostly third rail pickup.
The Northern Electric (which later became the northern half of the Sacramento Norther) was a third rail interurban. The Central California Traction was also third rail, energized at 1200V.
The Seattle light rail line south to Sea-Tac airport, is slowly being extended in stages to the ultimate goal of Tacoma.
Switzerland is building a new interurban line. Basel, the Capitol, and Zurich, the largest city, are connected by a main-line electrified railway with frequent passenger service. But smaller communities beween are currently more conveniently served by a bus route. So an interurban line is being built between the Zurich suburb or Alseiten and the Basel suburb of Kilwangen. At both ends it will connect with the local tram lines and also with the railroad local passenger service. There is also a raiload transfer connection at Dietikon, about midway. Not clear about thorugh running at each end over the local tram lines, but it should be possible. All are meter gauge, except the railroad.
Excellent right-up, thanks.
However,
Trolley wire on the Philadelphia & Western was only used in shops and the yard.
Otherwise, only 3rd rail.
https://www.classicstreamliners.com/interurban.html
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
All the above is true, but still historically correct terminology can be helpful. Does anyone have the fine Hilton and Drew book and can quote their definition?
Trolley and interurban are terms that have fallen by the wayside. Transportation planners seem to have replaced them with Streetcars for what we used to call trolleys, and Light Rail for everything else short of rapid transit.
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