Help me here NYC can do major repairs without shuting down lines but DC and elsewhere have to shut down the entire system?

[CandOforprogress2]

Cleveland DC and Baltimore have to shut down there metros for weeks when they need a major repair but NYC can replace tracks while the system is moving. DC needs to contract with NYC for repairs. DC has grown post metro from 600,000 people in 1970 to a Metropoliton Area of 5 Million in 2010.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I don't know how it's done elsewhere, but the Chicago Transit Authority has found that a total shutdown often allows a total rebuild to be done in appreciably less time than depending on off-peak only shutdowns.  Prime example is the rebuilding of the Dan Ryan line a few years ago.  The rebuilding of the Green Line (Lake-Cottage Grove/Englewood) took longer because major structural rebuilding was required.

[Firelock76]

Well, what can we say?  Along with their cops and firefighters, New York's got the best transit people in the world.

Mind you, I mean no insult to any of the others by that statement.

[Metro Red Line]

Many lines on the NY subway have the advantage of having a set of local and express tracks, so if one set of tracks needs work, the other can be used during maintenance. For most other cities, they only have a two-track mainline running throughout their system, so service cannot be re-routed during maintenance.

[sandyhookken]

NYC Subway does shut down when extensive repairs are needed. Because of the size of the subway system, a segment of a line is usually shutdown, rather than the entire line. Recent shutdowns have generally been for repair work for damages caused by Superstorm Sandy, e.g. the R between Manhatten and Brooklyn, shutdown for 14 months in 2013-14.

Recently, MTA announced the upcoming shutdown of the L line between Manhattan and Brooklyn to repair the Canarsie tunnels for possibly three years, and the shutdown of the M line in Queens for several months to repair elevated structures.

The MTA also has a program called FastTracks, where a segment of a line is shut down overnight for repairs. This has been ongoing for several years. The NYC Subway system operates 24/7, so these shutdowns do cause riders some inconvenience.

[CandOforprogress2]

Seems the newer systems have a lot to learn from the NYC subway and the EL

[BaltACD]

On my last trip to Road America in 2013, the CTA line that runs between the lanes of I-94 on the Southside of Chicago was shut down for major maintenance.  I believe it was shut down for several months.

[phkmn2000]

Correct on the CTA. A bus service was substituted for the duration.

[daveklepper]

Connecting the complex of lines around DeKalb Avenue (three lines to Coney Island and one to Fort Hamilton) with Manhattan, one can use the north side of the Manhattan Bridge, the south side, or the Montague Street Tunnel.   During bridge repairs, one pair of transit tracks on the bridge was shut down, then the other side, and after Sandy, the tunnel.  These were all about half-year closings.  There is enough reduncancy in the NY system so that what would be a massive shut-down in another city, requiring bus shuttles, can be handled keeping rail connections in New Yorik.   There are other examples.

The "L" line shutdown may require some shuttle busses however.

[CandOforprogress2]

With the exception of the North Shore Skokie line when it parreled the Red Line in the north there is not a a express track. However this does not prevent single bi directional tracking

[daveklepper]

Apoologies for not being more specific.  By "L" line, I was not referring to the CTA, but New York's old No. 16 14th Street Canarsie line. which is two tracks all the way, and where Sandy damage still requires repair in its tunnel under the East River.  Passengers from Myrtle Avneue station and east to Canarsie will probably all still be handled by all-railrouting to Manhattan, via the existing J, Z, and M lines.  And there may be 14th Street shuttle run only in Manhattan.  But that still leaves a few stations without rail sevice that may need bus connections to existing services.

Regarding the CTA, portions of the route shared by Howard Street north-south and Evanston Express, and for a part, Ravenswood, do have four tracks and some major repair and maintenance is possible without complete shutdown.  Part of the southern portion of Lake-Engnlewood/Jackson Park has three tracks.  The other redundancy is N - S either via the Loop or via the State St. subway.  But that is all.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

CandOforprogress2

With the exception of the North Shore Skokie line when it parreled the Red Line in the north there is not a a express track. However this does not prevent single bi directional tracking

 

 

Single-tracking on a rapid transit operation is not practical due to the frequency of trains.  CTA operating rules do provide for single-track operation around a temporary blockage but it is manually controlled and requires an extra number of supervisory personnel for its implementation.

[CandOforprogress2]

Firelock76

Well, what can we say?  Along with their cops and firefighters, New York's got the best transit people in the world.

Mind you, I mean no insult to any of the others by that statement.

 

That is New York Vaules

[BroadwayLion]

CandOforprogress2

 

 

Firelock76

Well, what can we say?  Along with their cops and firefighters, New York's got the best transit people in the world.

Mind you, I mean no insult to any of the others by that statement.

 

 

 

 

That is New York Vaules

 

 

 

YUP... NYCT has four track trunks in Manhattan, and even so it is also very fleixble, If something is closed, things can be re routed one line via another route.

Besides, the last time I looked, the also had LIONS in their subways.

ROAR

[aegrotatio]

When I used to visit New York City in the 1990s, the entire express section of the Flushing Queens Boulevard Line was shut down for rebuilding for almost a decade.  The E train was reintroduced as an express.

 

One of the lines over the Manhattan Bridge was shutdown for over a decade, too.

 

So, yes, NYC does shut down entire lines, though the Queens Boulevard Line was a four-track line with only two tracks out of service, the local is extremely slow, almost as slow as single-tracking on the Washington Metro.

 

The Manhattan Bridge rebuild project shut down and rerouted about a half dozen lines.

[NorthWest]

Well, part of it is that the NYC Subway has actually kept up with maintenence the last 20 years, unlike METRO...

[Firelock76]

A friend of mine from high school who wound up working in DC back in the 70's told me the REAL reason they built the Metro was to get the crime off the streets and put it underground.

No, he didn't like DC, AT ALL.

Me, I've always liked Washington, a great walking city with lots to see and do, but then, I don't live there.

[BroadwayLion]

CandOforprogress2

Cleveland DC and Baltimore have to shut down there metros for weeks when they need a major repair but NYC can replace tracks while the system is moving. DC needs to contract with NYC for repairs. DC has grown post metro from 600,000 people in 1970 to a Metropoliton Area of 5 Million in 2010.

 

 

This all depends on WHAT work needs to be done. Working on power feeders or sighanls could very well shut the whole thing down. Tracks can be worked on in between trains, and if a rail is out it will tale less than a half an hour to fix it. Trains can be routed via diferent lines. If an 8th Avenue local track is out, trains can run express or they can run via 6th Avenue. (F) trains have been known to run via the (GG) line if something is amiss on 6th Avenue.

The Sandy Tunnels are a case apart, If you have to do that much work, you do have to close the tunnel and just do the work, maybe 18 month or more.

They did this with the Montague Tunnel, but only the (R) train was really affected by that, at night it could run over the bridge, in the day time, it could short turn at Whatehall in Manhattan, and southbound at come conveinent station in Brooklyn.

Throguh riders would likely switch to the IRT for stops in lower manhattan, passengers for Midtown would have already switched to one of the Bridge lines at DeKalb or at Atlantic.

Systems without geographic redundancy are freash out of luck.

 

ROAR

[sandyhookken]

The NYCTA has released a very informative video about the repairs needed on the L Train Canarsie Tunnels and the service options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_JloKcE7s

 

[daveklepper]

I am routing the following suggested plan through a friend in the NYC area who has done consulting for the TA on several projects and supervised construction on several.  I hope he likes my plan and forwards it with whatever changes he thinks desirable.  Meqnwhile, all of you you can comment on what you think.

Proposed 14^th Street – Canarsie L – Line Service during East River Tunnel Reconstruction

 

.1. Goals:

 

Preserve safe operations, Minimum disruption to normal commuting, minimum additional car-miles, investment in any improvements to be useful after return to normal service.

 

.2.   Description of substitute services

 

E train diverted from World Trade Center Terminal and extended via Houston Street, "K" connector used by M Line, Williamsburg Bridge, Broadway Brooklyn Elevated local tracks, East New York Connector, to Canarsie.  R. H. headway kept at present, about 5 minutes,   Signal system Essex- East New York upgraded if necessary for 90-   second headway, 100-second operational.

 

Tunnel Shuttle 1^st Avenue – Beverly Avenue, one train, every 12 minutes, operator at each end for quick reversal at each terminal.

 

Truncated L Line, East New York/Broadway Junction – Beverly Avenue.  Every 6 minutes, operators drop back one headway at Beverly Avenue to permit quick reversal.

 

14^th Street Shuttle, 8th – 1st Avenues, every 6 minutes, operators drop back one headway at 1^st Avenue to permit quick reversal.

 

.3.  Modification to other services:

 

M:  Full length, every five minutes

 

Jamaica Service:   Z discontinued, all J trains express on Broadway Elevated in direction of heavy traffic, every five minutes.

 

Canal Street – World Trade Center Shuttle on northbound track replacing E service to the World Trade Center, every seven or eight minutes.

 

.4.   Advantages over earlier proposals:

 

Canarsie riders retain one-seat ride to Manhattan, with all L Line stations reached by direct service (8^th Avenue) or one change.  3^rd and 1^st Avenue riders may wish to ride the E and change once to the 14^th Street shuttle, minimizing use of the Tunnel Shuttle.  Except for these two stations, total additional travel time will not exceed 15 minutes.  6^th Avenue, change to M at same platform at Broadway-Myrtle or get an instantaneous connection at lower level at West 4^th Street.  Union Square, the 6 at Houston-Lafayette.

 

Other riders have the choice of the Tunnel Shuttle with two changes (one change for 1srt Avenue) or use of the G-to-A at Lorimer, M at Myrtle and Wycoff or the A, C, E, and J services at Broadway Junction – East New York.  ` This will minimize crowding on the Tunnel Shuttle, while minimizing the time of the shuttle's  crowding, and still preserving connectivity with one tunnel out-of-service.

 

The value of the 14^th Street crosstown service for local riders and those transferring to and from north-south subway and bus lines will be preserved.  This is importantm considering the heavy traffic on 14^th Street and the low commercial speed of the M14 bus.

 

 

.5.  The extension of the E to East New York should be permanent, and in the future the E can provide the Ozone Park branch service (off the Jamaica Elevaed at 111 St. on the old LIRR RoW.).

[BaltACD]

Guess Metro North has some repairs to make.....

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fire-halts-train-yorks-grand-central-terminal-001131622--nfl.html?ref=gs

[aegrotatio]

NorthWest

Well, part of it is that the NYC Subway has actually kept up with maintenence the last 20 years, unlike METRO...

 

 

That's not really true in the broader perspective.  Sure, you can say New York's MTA has kept up in only the last 20 years, but the reality is that the New York City Subway was falling apart for decades due to deferred maintenance and other problems decades before the City took it over.  Hardly anything was rehabilitated since the IND system was developed.

 

In the 1970s the system was in a crisis.  It was literally falling apart and catching fire all day every day.  It was orders of magnitude worse than the DC Metro.  After the NYC financial crisis was mostly resolved the MTA started on a rebuilding program that is still going on today, over 45 years later.

 

 

 

[NorthWest]

After the 1980s (except for Sandy, which wasn't their fault), the NYC Subway has been steadily improving and returning to a state of good repair. Metro has done the opposite.

[daveklepper]

Riding the subway every day during the 1970's, I can assure you the crises was not that bad.  Fortunaely, the system had been bujilt to such high standards that even deferred maintenance did not stop the trainis from running.  And before the city took the IRT and BMT systems over, maintenance on the BMT was as high a standard as one could wish, but the IRT was in bankrupcy and did just what was needed to keep things running.  The service was generally reliable.  Today, in Jerusalem, I could use that reliability for our bus system.  Not entirely the bus system's fault, traffic problems, incidents, etc.  The light rail runs more reliably, but it also has had outages or partial outages.  In the 1970's, Metro North and its predessor operation under Conrail, had problems more often than the subway system, stemming from the PC days.  A number of times, say about four during the entire decade. returning from my office near the White Plains North Statiop, we unloaded at Wakefield, and walked over to the Gund HIll Road Station to catch the 2 or 5 sbuway train to comploete oiur journey to Manhattan.  And one morning one of my two partners picked me up at the 241wst Street White Plains Rd.  (Av.) tp drove tje wokl.   In the 80's and up to the time I left in 1996, Metro North, as well as the subway, got lots and lots better.

[daveklepper]

Hard copy sent regular airmail yesterday:

דוד לויד בן יעקב יהודה קלפר, ישיבת בית אורות, שמואל בן עדיה 1, הר הזיתים, ירושלים  97400

David Lloyd ben Yaacov Yehuda Klepper, Yeshivat Beit Orot, Shmuel ben Adiya 1, Mt. of Olives, Jerusalem 97400 ISRAEL

 

 

16 Iyar 5776, 24 May 2016              Email: [e-mail]          15.05.16,טז' אייר תשע"ה

Ms. Veronique Hakim, Chief Executive Officer, New York City Transportation Authority

120 Livingston Street,  Brooklyn, NY 11201, U.    S.    A.

Dear Ms. Hakim,

I am writing because I am convinced that there is a better plan for coping with one L-Line tunnel out service than the plans so-far proposed. 

 

.1. Goals:

 

Preserve safe operations with good crowd control, minimum disruption to normal commuting, minimum additional car-miles, investment in any improvements to be useful after return to normal service.

 

.2.   Summary description of substitute services

 

E train diverted from World Trade Center Terminal and extended via Houston Street, "K" connector used by M Line, Williamsburg Bridge, Broadway Brooklyn Elevated local tracks, East New York Connector, to Canarsie.  R. H. headway kept at present, about 5 minutes,   Signal system Essex- East New York upgraded if necessary for 90-   second headway, 100-second operational.

 

Tunnel Shuttle 1^st Avenue – Beverly Avenue, one train, every 12 minutes, operator at each end for quick reversal at each terminal.

 

Truncated L Line, East New York/Broadway Junction – Beverly Avenue.  Every 6 minutes.  Uses both tracks Lorimer- Beverly, for 12 minute dual-direction headway on each track, one track at Beverly platform shared with Tunnel Shuttle.  Safety assured both by present fail-safe signal system plus time-window (timetable) allocation to each of the two services using the sipecific platform track.

 

14^th Street Shuttle, 8th – 1st Avenues, every 6 minutes.  Uses both tracks at 3^rd and 1^st Avenues, 12-minute dual-direction headway on each track, one track shared with Tunnel Shuttle at 1^st Avenue.  Safety assured as at Beverly Avenue.

 

.3.  Modification to other services:

 

M:  Full length, every five minutes

 

Jamaica Service:   Z discontinued, all J trains express on Broadway Elevated in direction of heavy traffic, every five minutes.

 

Canal Street – World Trade Center Shuttle on northbound track replacing E service to the World Trade Center, every seven or eight minutes.

 

.4.  Supplementary buses:

 

From Lorimer and Metropolitan, "A" to Marcy and Broadway, Houston and Lafayette, 14^th and 1^st, 14^th and 3^rd, Union Square; "B" to Delancy and Essex, Canal and Broadway, Park Row and City Hall.   From Beverly Avenue "C" to Marcy and Broadway, Williamsburg  Bridge Plaza, and Delancy and Essex only.  Evening rush-hours return trips.

 

.5.  Announcements for crowd control

 

The substitute services and all points of connections with other subway and bus routs should be covered by well-distributed pamphlets.  In addition, announcements on trains should be as informative as possible.  Possibly on the Truncated L line, after leaving Graham Avenue station, riders should hear: "Service on this line is provided only as far as Beverly Avenue.  You can wait between six and twelve minutes for the tunnel shuttle, which will take you to 1^st Avenue, where another change and wait will be required for further travel.  At the next station, Lorimer Avenue immediate departure buses are available for……(description of both bus lines.).   There will be some riders who opt for the Tunnel Shuttle, and for those who change their minds at Beverly, as well as to assist the Transit Police in controlling any crowding that occurs, buses will be available there as well.

 

.6.   Advantages over earlier proposals:

 

Canarsie riders retain one-seat ride to Manhattan, with all L Line stations reached by direct service (8^th Avenue) or one change.  3^rd and 1^st Avenue riders may wish to ride the E and change once to the 14^th Street shuttle, minimizing use of the Tunnel Shuttle.  Except for these two stations, total additional travel time will not exceed 15 minutes.  6^th Avenue, change to M at same platform at Broadway-Myrtle or get an instantaneous connection at lower level at West 4^th Street.  Union Square, the 6 at Houston-Lafayette, or the 5 at Livonia.

 

Other riders have the choice of the Tunnel Shuttle with two changes (one change for 1srt Avenue) or use of the G-to-the A and C at Lorimer, M at Myrtle and Wycoff or the A, C, E, and J services at Broadway Junction – East New York.  ` This will minimize crowding on the Tunnel Shuttle, while minimizing the time of the shuttle's crowding, and still preserving connectivity with one tunnel out-of-service.

 

The value of the 14^th Street crosstown service for local riders and those transferring to and from north-south Manhattan subway and bus lines will be preserved.  This is very important, considering the heavy traffic on 14^th Street and the low commercial speed of the M14 bus.

 

.7.  Just possibly, the extension of the E to East New York should be permanent, and in the future the E can provide Ozone Park branch service as one branch and Richmond Hill as another..  And eventually there should be an outer Queens "crosstown" service from Kew Gardens to Rockaway Park via the LIRR RoW, possibly as an extension of the R Line.

 

I hope this recommendation will receive serious consideration.  I am certain any objections can be answered and resolved.  It will assure continued overall growth of the City's transit ridership while the important Sandy mitigation repair work is underway.

 

Best wishes and all possible respect,

 

 

 

David Lloyd Klepper, student of the Yeshiva, former President of Klepper Marshall King Associates, White Plains, NY, SB, MIT '53,SM, MIT '57, USA Army veteran

Amap is available in GEF format by return mail to those contacting me at

[e-mail]

Your comments appreciated

[RME]

Wait a week or two, then send a letter to the Times, Post, and Newsday that describes the idea.  Stress in the letter the importance of giving as many people as possible the idea of the changes, in the same spirit as the pamphlets or handouts you propose.

[daveklepper]

I received form a reply from NYCTA already.   I honestly expect a positive reply, and would not contact the newspapers.  Indeed, my second mailing would be to Mayor de Blaso, and the Borough Presidents of Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens, ---- if necessary.   Newspapers would be the last resort.

 

 

[daveklepper]

Should explain, the letter was also e-mailed via the comment section of the NYCTA website's Canarsie Line Tunnel recfonstruction page. 

[daveklepper]

REceived formletter email reply:

Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

Subject

Canarsie Tunnel Reconstruction Project Discussion Thread

Response By Email (Fernando Polanco) (05/26/2016 12:34 PM) This is in response to your e-mail regarding the Canarsie Tunnel Reconstruction Project on the L Line. Thank you for your interest in MTA New York City Transit (NYCT). Please be assured that your suggestions and comments will be forwarded to the appropriate department for review and consideration. Additional information regarding the L Line reconstruction project is available on our website. Please click this link:http://web.mta.info/sandy/rebuildingCanarsieTunnel.html  You also have the option of signing up for our e-alerts that will provide periodic updates on the project. If you wish to sign up for this in the future, please click here: http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/app/comments_ltrain.  We look forward to serving you better now and in the future, and thank you for using our online system.   Regarding the 77% - 23% vote for a 1-1/2 total shutdown, what was offered was really only betwen a three-yeaqr total shutdown and one of 1-1/2 years.   Because the three-year one-tunnel-open option sated "No service between Lorimer and Beverly."  So except for Beverly patrons, the effect for anyone traveling to and from Manhattan was the same as total shutdown.  I'm surprised 23% voted for it.   May they .did not read the part about no service Beverly - Lorimer!   I'll keep you posted about what devfelops, to the extent that I can do so.

[Firelock76]

You know, I think the wrong person's running the subway.

Don't be surprised if you get a job offer David!