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North American PCC Roster

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North American PCC Roster
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 17, 2014 7:17 AM

Is there a roster of all PCC's curently operated by Transit Systems and by Musuems in North America?

We know from April TRAINS that SF MUNI has 29.  (The have others, "baby tens" that can be restored.)

Kenosha has six, seven?

Toronto two?

San Diego two?

Philadlephia 15?

Boston 9?

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, March 17, 2014 7:47 AM

I think about 9 NJT-Newark City Subway cars were just distributed around to several locations.
Seashore Trolley Museum Kennebunk, ME has at least one, as do Connecticut's museums about one a piece.  The Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA has one.  For starters off the top of a fuzzy Monday morning head.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Monday, March 17, 2014 10:03 AM

The benefits of morning coffee are discussed in the "RF&P electrification" topic.

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Posted by gardendance on Monday, March 17, 2014 10:13 AM

I don't know if I'd call the RF&P electrification thread coffee discussion one of morning benefits, but I do know these museums were operating at least 1 PCC last time I visited

National Capitol in Wheaton, Md

Baltimore Streetcar in you know where

Pennsyvania Trolley in Arden, Pa, just north of Washington Pa

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 17, 2014 12:54 PM

Seashore has NJT 5 and SEPTA 2709 in more or less operable condition.  DC 1304 is missing a couple of important electrical pieces but still comes out once in a while.  There are a bunch more PCCs on the property, at least some of which will move without being pushed.

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, March 17, 2014 3:31 PM

Colorado Springs = 2 (Manitou & Pikes Peak SRS&HS)....mostly ex-SEPTA, but there is a gaggle of other PCC's inside the wye at Roswell.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.866871,-104.831774&spn=0.005753,0.004656&t=h&z=18

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, March 17, 2014 5:37 PM

There is the one at Boylston Station, those ones being removed from the Brooklyn waterfront, and one at the Orange Empire museum in Perris, CA (narrow gauge).

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Posted by rfpjohn on Monday, March 17, 2014 8:09 PM

Does Philly have any unrestored/modified PCCs waiting in the wings, somewhere? And, if so, are there enough to resurrect route 23?

 

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Posted by desertdog on Monday, March 17, 2014 9:12 PM

Last I knew, there were several sitting to the north of the runway at El Paso International Airport. I believe these are the ex-El Paso-Juarez cars, at least some of which came from San Diego.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:43 AM

All the El Paso - Juarez PCC's came from San Diego.   I believe San Diego now has one of its own back in operatiton on the downtown heritage loop plus on ex Twin Cities NJT  car for that loop service.

And McKinney Avenue in Dallas has one of the two Leonards Department Store much modified PCCs operatonal and air-conditioned..

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 10:07 AM

Yes, the TTC has two, they're kept at the Russell car house on Queen st East. Both are in nice condition.

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Posted by Buslist on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 11:44 PM
This may be of some help

http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html

PS Colorado Springs has a lot more than 2.
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Posted by desertdog on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:10 PM

Now that I think about it, there is also an ex-Toronto PCC on stationary display next to the Roosevelt/Central light rail station in downtown Phoenix.

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Posted by gardendance on Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:57 AM

So now we're getting into static displays.

Septa has one in their headquarters basement-13th St station concourse

Glen Echo park outside Washington DC had, and I assume has, an ex Philly PCC at its old main entrance. It had what I assume were its Philly broad gauge trucks on top of standard gauge track, so only half the wheels are on the rail.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:50 PM

I can understand why Glen Echo park would want a PCC on display.  It was well served by the scenic,, mostly PRW, Cabin John, I think route 20, all PCC, which started at Union Station, went through a tunnel near the Capitol Building, passed the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue, swiched from conduit to overhead trolley wire at the beginning of PRW west of Georgetown, and then ran throgh a park-like environgment, crossing occaasional streams, to a stop at Glen Echo, then continiued to a loop at Cabin John, which seemed very rural indeed.   I understand the bus replacement took 45 miinutes longer to get downtown during rush hours, and people who had depended on the line found they had to abandon public transit and buy cars.    My first ride on the line was with John Stern and Bill (Giggles) Watson, on a privately taken railfan Batlimore and Washington weekend, 1947, age 15-1/2.  They shared a DC hotel room and I stayed with my Aunt Sue in her Massachusetts Avenue apartment.  We rode PRR both ways NY-DC.  I rode the line again and again on many subsequent visits.  My last ride was when I was in the Army at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 1956.  I was designated as convoy commander for a military vehicle trip to Bolling Air Base for an Armed Forces Day show (This was during the Eisenhower Administration, and nearly all USA Citizens showed respect for the military), and we were to demonstrate leaflet drops and long-range loudspeaker sound propagation.  My two techies and I decided to visit Glen Echo on our free time, and I had our Jeep driven to a Capitol area parking lot, parking for free for a military vehicle, and ride the trolley, and my two friends and hard workers said they appreciated the chance to ride the trolley line as much as to enjoy the Glen Echo amuseuments, even though it was evening and very dark on the return trip. On a long trip the three of us took turns driving, but in Washington, since I was the officer, still a 2nd Louee, not yet made 1st., one of the others had to do the driving.

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Posted by LNER4472 on Monday, March 24, 2014 11:07 PM

The Philly PCC at Glen Echo was removed in 2012:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/streetcar-removed-from-glen-echo-park/2012/04/30/gIQADoPjsT_story.html

Others that I know of:
Baltimore Streetcar Museum has on site original Baltimore Transit PCC 7407, Philadelphia PCC 2168, former San Diego/El Paso PCC 503/1503 (originally intended to be restored as Baltimore "7303," but now doubtful), and NJ Transit Newark Subway PCC 26, as well as a heavily-rebuily ex-Philly "line car" PCC.

Rockhill Trolley Museum has SEPTA 2743 and Newark car 6.

Three ex-Philly/SEPTA PCCs were sold off by the Balto. Streetcar Museum to a group in Lancaster, Pa. in 2008; whereabouts unknown.  That group supposedly also had a fourth that came via Brooklyn, NY, but was scrapped in an ownership/storage/property dispute.

As I recall, National Capital Trolley Museum has three PCCs of various heritages.

Just go to Frank Hicks' excellent database at the BERA website, mentioned above.

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Posted by highgreen on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:23 AM

The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, Washington, PA (Arden), has seven "true" PCCs - three operational, four on display only.

Of the seven, one was Pullman Standard built for Shaker Heights Rapid Transit (Cleveland, OH), four are St. Louis products for Pittsburgh Railways Co. (PRCo), while two more St. Louis cars were made for Philadelphia Transportation Co. (one of them later repainted in SEPTA's orange-and-blue scheme).

One of the PRCo units was rebuilt by Port Authority of Allegheny County Transit (PAT) in 1988 as #4004. It was PAT's last revenue service PCC. Another PRCo car, #1711, was one of several specially fitted to run in interurban service between Pittsburgh and Charleroi or Washington, PA. It sports the roof mounted "cyclops eye" headlight seen on on some of today's LRVs.

The museum actually has nine PCCs in all if you count St. Louis-built Philadelphia Suburban (PS) #14 (operational) and #24 (display only) for PS's renamed Red Arrow Division, later part of SEPTA. These two 1949 units are considered by many as the last US interurban cars ever made. They sport PCC bodies mounted on high-speed running gear.

Operational or not, PTM gives all these cars due TLC. The entire collection roster and histories are here: http://pa-trolley.org/collection/

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Posted by ruderunner on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:34 AM

While a bit off topic, does anyone know where PCC's last ran in regular revenue service?  Not the current "revival" or nostalgia runs they make now.

Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:36 AM

Possibly Newark City Subway.  But I believe there are many that never were retired in the likes of Philadelphia and San Francisco...even South America.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:01 PM

CTA ran its last PCC's on December 4, 1992 on the Evanston Express.

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Posted by gardendance on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:47 PM

I quibble about Philly and San Francisco, both of which I believe had a few year gap in their PCC service.

Boston, or rather its Mattapan and Asmont suburbs, is the only operation that I'm pretty sure is still PCC.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:37 PM

Chicago Transit Authority 4391 is at the Illinois Railway Museum.

http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?estreet=Chicago+Transit+Authority=4391

Also Cleveland Transit System 4223. 

And CTA converted PCC's 22, 30, 41, 50, and 6125-26, 6461-62, 6455-56.


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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:51 PM

S. F. MUNICIPAL RAILWAY #1030 is at he Fox Valley Trolley Museum, along with more CTA conversions.

 http://www.foxtrolley.org/Default.aspx?pageId=1146778

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Posted by aricat on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:19 PM

The Minnesota Streetcar Museum operates a PCC car in TCRT colors at Lake Harriet in Minneapolis along with TCRT car 1300, and Standard TCRT car and 299  a Duluth Standard  car.

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Posted by Buslist on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:03 PM
A complete list of PCC streetcars at IRM include

CTA 4391
http://www.irm.org/gallery/CTA4391

CSL 4021
http://www.irm.org/gallery/CSL4021

CTS 4223
http://www.irm.org/gallery/CTS4223

Greater Cleveland RTA (née TCRT) 63
http://www.irm.org/gallery/GCRTA63

Kansas City 755
http://www.irm.org/gallery/KCPS755

NJT (née TCRT) 4
http://www.irm.org/gallery/NJT4

And pre PCC CSL 4001
http://www.irm.org/gallery/CSL4001
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:11 AM

YOu are correct.   Boston  is the only city with continuous PCC service since 1941.  However, the lines served changed several times, and the original, Park Street - Watertown, doesn't exist.   SF and Philly had a gap in regular service, but not in servicable cars.  Toronto cannot be counted as regular service.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:54 AM

CTA's rapid transit PCC's were not rebuilds but trade-ins and the first batch, 6001-6200 were built prior to the beginning of the trade-ins, which covered 6201-6720 and 1-50.  CTA would sell PCC streetcars to St. Louis Car Co., who scrapped the cars and salvaged various re-usable parts, primarily trucks and various interior fittings, to be used in the construction of new PCC rapid transit cars.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:11 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

CTA's rapid transit PCC's were not rebuilds but trade-ins and the first batch, 6001-6200 were built prior to the beginning of the trade-ins, which covered 6201-6720 and 1-50.  CTA would sell PCC streetcars to St. Louis Car Co., who scrapped the cars and salvaged various re-usable parts, primarily trucks and various interior fittings, to be used in the construction of new PCC rapid transit cars.

CRT/CTA's 5001-5004 articulateds also had PCC control and could train with the 6000 series.  Cars 6127-6128, 6129-6130 and 1-4 had various non-PCC control systems but could train with cars with PCC control.  Easiest way to distinguish the built-new from the trade-ins were the flat instead of curved doors on 6001-6200, which were known as "Flat Door Sixes"

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:59 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

CTA's rapid transit PCC's were not rebuilds but trade-ins and the first batch, 6001-6200 were built prior to the beginning of the trade-ins, which covered 6201-6720 and 1-50.  CTA would sell PCC streetcars to St. Louis Car Co., who scrapped the cars and salvaged various re-usable parts, primarily trucks and various interior fittings, to be used in the construction of new PCC rapid transit cars.

I was under the (mis)impression that the trade-ins also used some of the body of the PCCs (sides).

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:24 AM

schlimm
I was under the (mis)impression that the trade-ins also used some of the body of the PCCs (sides).

The bodies were built new, with windows, cranks, light fixtures, seats re-used.  The windows and crank assemblies on the Pullman and St. Louis streetcar PCCs were slightly different, requiring some body modifications as the project was underway.  In the run-up to the final design, Pullman tried re-using a St. Louis-built car's body with new ends and bolsters, but the body construction was too light for rapid transit service.  St. Louis Car made the proposal to build new bodies and reuse parts.  StLCC's offer included buying back the streetcars, which is why the majority of them were scrapped in St. Louis.

Hard as it is to believe, the first 120 cars were built with the Conductor's position outside the cars, with one foothold on each car of the married pair.  Needless to say this arrangement didn't last long, and may not even have made it into passenger-carrying service.

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