Paul,
According to Wiki, in 1960 New Orleans' population was about 630 thousand people, its highest point. It then began to decline. By 2000 the population had dropped to about 484 thousand. After Katrina there was a sudden loss of about 100 thousand and in 2012 the population stood at 369 thousand people, a little over half of what it had been in 1960.
When I lived in the city in the 70's bus fare was more than 7¢. As I recall it was 30 or 35¢ which was still a good deal. $1.25 is almost as much as it is here in New Jersey, $1.50 for a one zone fare. At least New Orleans still has pay one price.
So I'm sure you are right that transit is less frequent and more expensive today than ever. But I think the city is still struggling. I hope its tourism pays off.
John
Sam1 I am hard pressed to understand why we should spend $50 million per mile for light rail.
I am hard pressed to understand why light rail DOES cost $50M/mile! I think we might be victims of a transit supplier - industrial complex, to corrupt and Eisenhower-ism.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BroadwayLionBus *is* a bad word. Beese are stinky, smelly, and wander around like they are lost, instead of just following the tracks like a respectable vehicle should.
I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums.
Do I hear a second?
John WR Consider New Jersey's RiverLine as an example. It is a light rail line between Trenton and Camden and carries more people than it was projected to so it is a success from that perspective. But it looses a hugh amount of money because the fare is kept artificially low (unlike other buses and trains) and it also required borrowing a hugh amount to buy the line, money we will be paying off for many years and it not available for other transit. There is a parallel bus route. This is in rural southern New Jersey were traffic is not a big problem and people could be carried by bus for a lot less money even with the artificially low fares. So why did we build the RiverLine? It was built as a political exchange. South Jersey would not oppose transit projects in the northern part of the state provided it got the RiverLine in return. And so it did. But no one has suggested it ever had anything to do with any transportation need. And that is the way things are done in my state.
Consider New Jersey's RiverLine as an example. It is a light rail line between Trenton and Camden and carries more people than it was projected to so it is a success from that perspective. But it looses a hugh amount of money because the fare is kept artificially low (unlike other buses and trains) and it also required borrowing a hugh amount to buy the line, money we will be paying off for many years and it not available for other transit. There is a parallel bus route. This is in rural southern New Jersey were traffic is not a big problem and people could be carried by bus for a lot less money even with the artificially low fares. So why did we build the RiverLine?
It was built as a political exchange. South Jersey would not oppose transit projects in the northern part of the state provided it got the RiverLine in return. And so it did. But no one has suggested it ever had anything to do with any transportation need. And that is the way things are done in my state.
Most people have little idea about North vs South Jersey politics and identity and fierce the regional loyalties are. Being a South Jersey guy (for most of my life - exit 3) I'll give the South Jersey perspective on the River LIne.
You are correct about it being a political "bone" thrown to the south. But, you are incorrect about the need for the line and you are incorrect calling the line's route "rural". Perhaps you are confusing the western part of Burlington County with the Pine Barrens? Everything south of Burlington (City) is pretty much bedroom suburbs of Philadelphia - and has been for a while. The spaces between the older towns on the line that grew up along the Camden and Amboy have long filled in with tract housing and light industry. True, it's not quite Bergen County - dense, but nothing else in the state is, either.
Much of the support for the line came from those towns who were looking for an economic development boost. Clearly, quite a bit of the value of the line came in this form and won't show up on the balance sheet. The street running in Camden, in particular, was supposed to be a huge economic boost
IMHO, they made one, really gross error with the line. That was making it light rail instead of commuter rail. Given that NJ has a huge investment and large network of commuter rail lines, it would have been easy to integrate the River Line into that network. The temporal separation between freight and passenger operations really hurts the value of the line as an economic boost for Camden given the early evening curfew for passenger operations.
Integrating the line into the NJT commuter rail network would have made for connections (and, perhaps, through running) at Trenton for Atlantic City from the north as well as the possibility of single seat rides from the 'burbs to Center City Phila.
It's nice the line is working out as well as it has. The original, proposed southern end of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs - is now getting a second look. A lot of the opposition has died down. It appears they've been pleasantly surprised to note that the River Line is not being used by criminals from Camden to loot the suburbs...
oltmanndend of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs - is now getting a second look. A lot of the opposition has died down. It appears they've been pleasantly surprised to note that the River Line is not being used by criminals from Camden to loot the suburbs...
I seem to recall that was the same subtext or rationale as to why in Atlanta Cobb county didn't join MARTA.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Back to the topic at hand....
Beese.
City Beese. I don't trust them. They can go anywhere - no tracks!. You can never quite be sure where the stops are. You are never really quite sure you are getting on the right one. You are never really quite sure what the schedule is for the stop you hope you are at - or - if there is a stop near or at where you want to get off. And, then, there's that whole "stop request" cord/button thing. Some times people use them. Sometimes not. There's a whole set of city beese rules and culture to learn. Probably a secret handshake, too. Last time I rode a city bus was in SF for a few blocks on Market St on a Muni pass. Didn't want to wait for the next overcrowded F trolley.
Commuter Beese. A reasonable substitute for a commuter train. They generally go from one suburban place to the city - direct. No wandering around. Not confusing. Generally use "long haul" coaches with comfy seats, enough leg room (my 36" inseam legs fit sitting normally), and good climate control. Generally not good for anything other than commuting. Perhaps a "gateway drug" for commuter rail? (one can hope...) Used NJT express buses into Phila for a few years and am currently using Xpress bus to Atlanta.
Long Haul Beese. Greyhound and Trailways were always the carrier of last resort for intercity travel. New curbside, single lane or hub and spoke guys are changing that. Megabus and Bolt have cache with the college age crowd. Not incompatible with passenger rail, although I think the model should be flipping from "bus feeds rail" to "rail feeds bus", particularly in places like Atlanta where a single Amtrak train with many rural stops could be feeding Megabus's hub - who's routes have zero rural stops.
In Dallas the cost per light rail mile was less than $50 million per mile, even when adjusted for inflation, because most of the system was built along existing or abandoned rail lines. The two exceptions were the above ground transit way through downtown and the tunnel under Central Expressway.
The proposed Austin light rail system would have to acquire its rights-of-way from various land owners. Thus, the cost of the easements will be substantially higher than was the case in Dallas.
Finding the right era bus for a time period can be hard. I have had to serch toy stores and hotwheel collectibles and even then its not right. I dont even think mattel and hotwheels is actual HO scale.
oltmanndIt's nice the line is working out as well as it has. The original, proposed southern end of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs -
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Oltmannd:
"I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums.
Do I hear a second?"
NAY
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
oltmannd Sam1 I am hard pressed to understand why we should spend $50 million per mile for light rail. I am hard pressed to understand why light rail DOES cost $50M/mile! I think we might be victims of a transit supplier - industrial complex, to corrupt and Eisenhower-ism.
I've often wondered, too, where all that money goes, and if a significant percentage isn't inflated costs to cover deals we don't know about. Does that $50 million include the cost of the economic feasibility studies and all the other studies that precede the project?
Its moving the underground utlities. Actululy what streetcars and light rail is really about (as also the (Cleveland Health Line BRT) was upgrading ancient underground utlilitys. As we speak the City of Cincy is arguing with folks that own the "Grid" over how much they are owed. Even if you never ride the line you will get faster internet and cleaner drinking water. Buildings downtown will be more atractive and can hook into the GRID eaaser
I third that...
One seat ride.
MTA opens Park and Ride Lot
http://mta.maryland.gov/mta-celebrates-new-park-and-ride-lot-st-mary%E2%80%99s-county-ribbon-cutting-ceremony-0
Paul of Covington Oltmannd: "I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums. Do I hear a second?" NAY
oltmannd Paul of Covington Oltmannd: "I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums. Do I hear a second?" NAY
Johnny
Don,
As far as the rural -- suburban issue is concerned, I defer to your informed opinion and stand corrected.
I did not talk abut the economic development issue and perhaps I should have. But at this point you have explained that issue and I agree with you.
As far as the light / heavy rail issue is concerned, I would only add to what you say that the rails themselves are heavy rail. They are used by freight trains during the late night. However, as I recall, keeping the fare rock bottom was important to New Jersey Transit. I doubt they could have heavy rail with a fare of $1.50 for the whole trip.
And yes, the trains are working out well. During weekdays they run every 15 minutes and are fairly full.
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