Don,
As far as the rural -- suburban issue is concerned, I defer to your informed opinion and stand corrected.
I did not talk abut the economic development issue and perhaps I should have. But at this point you have explained that issue and I agree with you.
As far as the light / heavy rail issue is concerned, I would only add to what you say that the rails themselves are heavy rail. They are used by freight trains during the late night. However, as I recall, keeping the fare rock bottom was important to New Jersey Transit. I doubt they could have heavy rail with a fare of $1.50 for the whole trip.
And yes, the trains are working out well. During weekdays they run every 15 minutes and are fairly full.
John
oltmannd Paul of Covington Oltmannd: "I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums. Do I hear a second?" NAY
Paul of Covington Oltmannd: "I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums. Do I hear a second?" NAY
Oltmannd:
"I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums.
Do I hear a second?"
NAY
Johnny
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
MTA opens Park and Ride Lot
http://mta.maryland.gov/mta-celebrates-new-park-and-ride-lot-st-mary%E2%80%99s-county-ribbon-cutting-ceremony-0
One seat ride.
I third that...
Its moving the underground utlities. Actululy what streetcars and light rail is really about (as also the (Cleveland Health Line BRT) was upgrading ancient underground utlilitys. As we speak the City of Cincy is arguing with folks that own the "Grid" over how much they are owed. Even if you never ride the line you will get faster internet and cleaner drinking water. Buildings downtown will be more atractive and can hook into the GRID eaaser
oltmannd Sam1 I am hard pressed to understand why we should spend $50 million per mile for light rail. I am hard pressed to understand why light rail DOES cost $50M/mile! I think we might be victims of a transit supplier - industrial complex, to corrupt and Eisenhower-ism.
Sam1 I am hard pressed to understand why we should spend $50 million per mile for light rail.
I am hard pressed to understand why light rail DOES cost $50M/mile! I think we might be victims of a transit supplier - industrial complex, to corrupt and Eisenhower-ism.
I've often wondered, too, where all that money goes, and if a significant percentage isn't inflated costs to cover deals we don't know about. Does that $50 million include the cost of the economic feasibility studies and all the other studies that precede the project?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
oltmanndIt's nice the line is working out as well as it has. The original, proposed southern end of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs -
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Finding the right era bus for a time period can be hard. I have had to serch toy stores and hotwheel collectibles and even then its not right. I dont even think mattel and hotwheels is actual HO scale.
In Dallas the cost per light rail mile was less than $50 million per mile, even when adjusted for inflation, because most of the system was built along existing or abandoned rail lines. The two exceptions were the above ground transit way through downtown and the tunnel under Central Expressway.
The proposed Austin light rail system would have to acquire its rights-of-way from various land owners. Thus, the cost of the easements will be substantially higher than was the case in Dallas.
Back to the topic at hand....
Beese.
City Beese. I don't trust them. They can go anywhere - no tracks!. You can never quite be sure where the stops are. You are never really quite sure you are getting on the right one. You are never really quite sure what the schedule is for the stop you hope you are at - or - if there is a stop near or at where you want to get off. And, then, there's that whole "stop request" cord/button thing. Some times people use them. Sometimes not. There's a whole set of city beese rules and culture to learn. Probably a secret handshake, too. Last time I rode a city bus was in SF for a few blocks on Market St on a Muni pass. Didn't want to wait for the next overcrowded F trolley.
Commuter Beese. A reasonable substitute for a commuter train. They generally go from one suburban place to the city - direct. No wandering around. Not confusing. Generally use "long haul" coaches with comfy seats, enough leg room (my 36" inseam legs fit sitting normally), and good climate control. Generally not good for anything other than commuting. Perhaps a "gateway drug" for commuter rail? (one can hope...) Used NJT express buses into Phila for a few years and am currently using Xpress bus to Atlanta.
Long Haul Beese. Greyhound and Trailways were always the carrier of last resort for intercity travel. New curbside, single lane or hub and spoke guys are changing that. Megabus and Bolt have cache with the college age crowd. Not incompatible with passenger rail, although I think the model should be flipping from "bus feeds rail" to "rail feeds bus", particularly in places like Atlanta where a single Amtrak train with many rural stops could be feeding Megabus's hub - who's routes have zero rural stops.
oltmanndend of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs - is now getting a second look. A lot of the opposition has died down. It appears they've been pleasantly surprised to note that the River Line is not being used by criminals from Camden to loot the suburbs...
I seem to recall that was the same subtext or rationale as to why in Atlanta Cobb county didn't join MARTA.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR Consider New Jersey's RiverLine as an example. It is a light rail line between Trenton and Camden and carries more people than it was projected to so it is a success from that perspective. But it looses a hugh amount of money because the fare is kept artificially low (unlike other buses and trains) and it also required borrowing a hugh amount to buy the line, money we will be paying off for many years and it not available for other transit. There is a parallel bus route. This is in rural southern New Jersey were traffic is not a big problem and people could be carried by bus for a lot less money even with the artificially low fares. So why did we build the RiverLine? It was built as a political exchange. South Jersey would not oppose transit projects in the northern part of the state provided it got the RiverLine in return. And so it did. But no one has suggested it ever had anything to do with any transportation need. And that is the way things are done in my state.
Consider New Jersey's RiverLine as an example. It is a light rail line between Trenton and Camden and carries more people than it was projected to so it is a success from that perspective. But it looses a hugh amount of money because the fare is kept artificially low (unlike other buses and trains) and it also required borrowing a hugh amount to buy the line, money we will be paying off for many years and it not available for other transit. There is a parallel bus route. This is in rural southern New Jersey were traffic is not a big problem and people could be carried by bus for a lot less money even with the artificially low fares. So why did we build the RiverLine?
It was built as a political exchange. South Jersey would not oppose transit projects in the northern part of the state provided it got the RiverLine in return. And so it did. But no one has suggested it ever had anything to do with any transportation need. And that is the way things are done in my state.
Most people have little idea about North vs South Jersey politics and identity and fierce the regional loyalties are. Being a South Jersey guy (for most of my life - exit 3) I'll give the South Jersey perspective on the River LIne.
You are correct about it being a political "bone" thrown to the south. But, you are incorrect about the need for the line and you are incorrect calling the line's route "rural". Perhaps you are confusing the western part of Burlington County with the Pine Barrens? Everything south of Burlington (City) is pretty much bedroom suburbs of Philadelphia - and has been for a while. The spaces between the older towns on the line that grew up along the Camden and Amboy have long filled in with tract housing and light industry. True, it's not quite Bergen County - dense, but nothing else in the state is, either.
Much of the support for the line came from those towns who were looking for an economic development boost. Clearly, quite a bit of the value of the line came in this form and won't show up on the balance sheet. The street running in Camden, in particular, was supposed to be a huge economic boost
IMHO, they made one, really gross error with the line. That was making it light rail instead of commuter rail. Given that NJ has a huge investment and large network of commuter rail lines, it would have been easy to integrate the River Line into that network. The temporal separation between freight and passenger operations really hurts the value of the line as an economic boost for Camden given the early evening curfew for passenger operations.
Integrating the line into the NJT commuter rail network would have made for connections (and, perhaps, through running) at Trenton for Atlantic City from the north as well as the possibility of single seat rides from the 'burbs to Center City Phila.
It's nice the line is working out as well as it has. The original, proposed southern end of the line down to Glassboro - which was squashed by NIMBYs - is now getting a second look. A lot of the opposition has died down. It appears they've been pleasantly surprised to note that the River Line is not being used by criminals from Camden to loot the suburbs...
BroadwayLionBus *is* a bad word. Beese are stinky, smelly, and wander around like they are lost, instead of just following the tracks like a respectable vehicle should.
I hereby move that "Beese" become the official plural for "bus" on these forums.
Do I hear a second?
Paul,
According to Wiki, in 1960 New Orleans' population was about 630 thousand people, its highest point. It then began to decline. By 2000 the population had dropped to about 484 thousand. After Katrina there was a sudden loss of about 100 thousand and in 2012 the population stood at 369 thousand people, a little over half of what it had been in 1960.
When I lived in the city in the 70's bus fare was more than 7¢. As I recall it was 30 or 35¢ which was still a good deal. $1.25 is almost as much as it is here in New Jersey, $1.50 for a one zone fare. At least New Orleans still has pay one price.
So I'm sure you are right that transit is less frequent and more expensive today than ever. But I think the city is still struggling. I hope its tourism pays off.
I hate to knock my fair city, John, but the New Orleans transit service lately has been a shadow of what it once was. In the '70's when you remember it, it was still pretty close to the service in the '50's when I was living there. My family never owned a car, and neither did most of our neighbors, but the Canal St. streetcar a block and a half from our house ran almost like a conveyor belt. You could look up and down the street and many cars would be in sight in both directions. Today, the buses and streetcars are few and far between and they crawl along. Today the fare is $1.25 versus seven cents when I was a kid. Of course many times I didn't have seven cents, so I did a lot of walking.
daveklepperNew Orleans definitely pushes the nostalgia angle, with even new and technologically modern cars lookiing like 1926 models.
With its streetcars New Orleans does emphasize nostalgia, Dave. But it also has a lot of local people who ride buses and streetcars. It has a local transit system that is so good that it is reasonable to live in New Orleans and not own a car. Few cities can say that.
New Orleans definitely pushes the nostalgia angle, with even new and technologically modern cars lookiing like 1926 models.
BonasMy problem with train advocates is they act like its the patent med for transit as well...not every town has megabucks to spend on rail.
If I may add a couple of points, Bonas:
1. Buses certainly have their place in American public transit and it is a large place.
2. Towns, which are relatively small as municipalities go, rarely can support any kind of public transit beyond senior citizen buses and school buses. Public transit needs a larger service area.
3. There was a times when the US had a very large network of rail transit. That time ended in the 1930's and 40's. Are we poorer than we were then?
4. Sometimes people argue that a rail transit system with generate its own traffic because it is a lot faster than buses which must share the road with other traffic. That shared business will also result in economic benefits for business along the line. I tend to be skeptical about these claims but I don't know that we can rule them out either.
5. Once city which has expanded its street car system is New Orleans. New Orleans is among our poorer cities but it has still found the money to build rail transit.
There may be special reasons for sparse-service rail operations, where buses are impractical, say a rail right of way exists and even a tunnel or bridge that would be hard to convert to a roadway for rubber-tired vehicles, or a tourist heritage operation where the trolley ride is the attraction, but except for such special cases, I agree with Blue Streak, and this ties in with at least 25,000 or more rides per weekday.
Bonas My problem with train advocates is they act like its the patent med for transit as well...not every town has megabucks to spend on rail.
My problem with train advocates is they act like its the patent med for transit as well...not every town has megabucks to spend on rail.
I have never understood the hate for buses I have used several of them and overall they work really well. My problem with bus advocates though is that they act like it is the be all end all solution to transportation problems.
Railroad to Freedom
BonasUsed to take R train to Trenton for change to NJ Transit...Now take Riverline.
I can understand why, Bonas. SEPTA charges $141 a month for a 6 zone commuter ticket between philadelphia and Trenton. This is about $9 a day for a 20 day month. An individual adult fare is $8.75.
Riverline is $1.50 a trip, less with a monthly commuter ticket.
Most non-rail/non-transit folks think of a 'bus' as something 'smelly' you get stuck behind in traffic. Of course there are the environmentally friendly one that run on alternative fuels - They smell like french fries/vinegar or whatever they are fueled on...
In a perfect world, we would have folks driving to parking lots to pick up a bus or train - That sort of happens in larger cities, but most rural areas do not have enough ridership. Here in Rochester, MN: we have about 100,000+ folks, and about 30,000+ Mayo Clinic employees. There are buses to outlying areas that shuttle clinic folks into Rochester. But, it you work something other than a day shift, you are out of luck. You will be driving into town and parking in this large lots,and a cold walk in the winter season.
Mayo also contracts parking in the Walmart lots, and has contracted the Rochester Bus service to move Mayo employees the 5 miles or so to their downtown work locations. Of course, there is no in bus service later in the evening, and one now is stuck if you are a 2nd shift worker.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Used to take R train to Trenton for change to NJ Transit...Now take Riverline....during the day as not to put my life in danger in Camden.
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