Pedestrian malls serve no purpose if there are no ways for the pedestrians to get there. It costs too much each to create parking spaces in city centers and it is too inconvenient to get in and out of city center by automobile. Cities know that. That is why they are all pushing mass transit and urban high rise dwellings.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
CSSHEGEWISCHPedestrian malls were quite the rage in the late 1970's and early 1980's and were tried in a lot of places.
Cities found themselves between a rock and a hard place although to a large extent it was of their own making. Interstate highways were supposed to connect cities; not eviscerate them. But that is what happened. And local government invited those highway in as a way of managing the cities. But they managed to do away with a large part of their tax base. That of course increased taxes on downtown businesses and drove the businesses away. Too late they tried pedestrian malls but by that time there was no place for pedestrians to go once they came to down town. Now many of those cities are trying to reinvent themselves as suburbs, places to live with relatively low cost housing. Some are more successful than others.
The Ped Mall in Minni was shown on the Mary Tyler Moore show in the 1970s and other citys said we gotta have one of those too. Its great for girl watching expecialy when then hem lines have gone up. The problem was that Federated Department stores was closing most of its downtown stores that were not connected to Big Suberban Shopping malls. Hects Department Store Left a huge hole in the Lexington Market Ped Mall. There were also perceptions of saftey as police could not control homeless people or anyone that looked or acted funny but private suberaban malls could sweep away the undisiables.
You are so correct! Going crosstown in New York City is almost impossible unless you do it by foot; who wants to walk from Tenth Avenue to First Avenue? Or even from Eighth Avenue to Grand Central! Thirty years ago then-Mayor Ed Koch tried hard to get people interested in reinstating crosstown trolleys on 42nd Street, 34th Street, and 14th Street. He also suggested putting streetcars back on Broadway from Washington Heights to the Battery and back but no one took his suggestions seriously. New Yorkers miss Koch but still don't realize how right he was about streetcars.
42nd Stret had an excellent crosstown streetcar, with every other one turning north at Times Square as a Broaway car. This was a great loss, and busses were not and are not up to the job the streetcars did, and the bus conversion did very little to ease traffic congestion. But the only 42nd St. elevated was the original terminal of the 3rd Avenue Elevated at the old Grand Cetnral Depot/Staiton, running just a short block from 3rd to Lexington Avenue, and this was torn down with the construction of Grand Central Terminal and the Lexington Avenue Subway. 42nd Street does have two crosstown subway lines, the S Shuttle only serving Times Square and Grand Central Terminal, and the No, 7 Flishing Line, Times Square, 5th Avenue, and Grand Central, being extended west to the Javits Center, 10th Avernue and 35th Street, probalby with passegways to the new Penn Staiotn if it ever gets built in the old Post Office Building.
Pedestrian malls were quite the rage in the late 1970's and early 1980's and were tried in a lot of places. The Chicago Loop (State Street) and Oak Park (Lake Street) were converted to pedestrian malls (State Street kept bus-only lanes) and were converted back to conventional streets with auto traffic within the last 10 years.
Those cities were already dead and not going to come back no matter what.
Malls are good, malls with transit are even better.
But you really do need to have a city that is not already on life support for this to work.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Ped malls can revitllse your town or turn it into a ghost. town. Buffalo,Canton OH and Erie PA all expermneted with ped malls and failed
Phoebe VetThat's absolutely true. That is why most cities have 20 story buildings right up against the sidewalk making it impossible to widen the streets.
No need to widen the streets. Turn them all into pedestrian malls, and park the cars OUTSIDE of the city. Provide free trolley service in and around the city.
When LION says eliminate cars him does not mean all cars, but certainly all commuters. People who as live there should purchase or rent an off-street parking place before they can be given a license plate at that address (LION thinks this is done in Tokyo). Trucks and deliveries must happen, but that is what side streets and alleys are for. Yes, yes, him knows all of the arguments against this wonderful plan, but such argumenters do not allow for the necessary exemptions that the LION would have to make. Cities should be for people not cars. LION *hates* Grand Forks and Fargo and other western cities with their wide streets and no sidewalks, where one must drive from one parking lot to the next. There is no humanity there, no human scale.
OvermodIt was a bad day when they tore it [42nd St. elevated0 down, wasn't it?
In hindsight perhaps it was. Yet elevated railroads, which blocked light and air and were noisy, were not popular in their own day. I doubt they would be popular today
Overmod Imagine better. Imagine how easy it would be to get across midtown Manhattan on an elevated railroad, without having to provide a closure of the existing street to other vehicles... It was a bad day when they tore it down, wasn't it?
Imagine better. Imagine how easy it would be to get across midtown Manhattan on an elevated railroad, without having to provide a closure of the existing street to other vehicles...
It was a bad day when they tore it down, wasn't it?
I guess I'm not familiar enough with Manhattan elevateds. What cross midtown route did they tear down?
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
blue streak 1But the #7 cannot stop at every other avenue river to river
No. It stops at Lexington Avenue, 5th Avenue and 7th Avenue. To 11th avenue is four blocks. But 2nd Avenue to Lexington is only 3 blocks.
John WR Of course it is possible to take the no.7 train.
Of course it is possible to take the no.7 train.
randmc59Imagine how easy it would be to get across midtown Manhattan if there was a 42nd St light rail line (or any other crosstown line) and a closure of that street to other vehicles, as has been discussed.
randmc59 Imagine how easy it would be to get across midtown Manhattan if there was a 42nd St light rail line (or any other crosstown line) and a closure of that street to other vehicles, as has been discussed.
Imagine how easy it would be to get across midtown Manhattan if there was a 42nd St light rail line (or any other crosstown line) and a closure of that street to other vehicles, as has been discussed.
Closing the street to other vehicles would speed up the time of any transit vehicle, be it light rail or bus.
It sounds to me like you got your money's worth out of that care.
I brought my first car in my early 30's. I was just out of school and working at my first job and I inherited enough money to buy a new Volvo. It cost about $3,000. My wife learned to drive. We had it for many years. I continued to ride the bus to work -- we were living in New Orleans -- and I've always used a bus or train to get to work so my wife could have the car at home. We still have one car. I'm retired now. We usually drive. But if I go somewhere alone I take the bus.
I bought my first car as a grad student at MIT at age 21 in the summer of 1953, a just new 1954 Ford Lane. from a Dearborn, MI dealer for 1600 dollars. The car was invaluable during my Army service, 1954-1956, and a help while I lived in Watertown and Cambridge, MA, 1957-1967, but I could have relied more on public transit, which I used only occasionally. Lot oIf long distance rail travel during that period, however. 1967-1970 at King Arthur Court apartments in Wesmount, IL, I needed a car, by then a Corvair. When I moved to NYC I logically sold the car, May, 1970, and mainly used public transit while sometimes renting when needed. The last time I used my drivers' license was the summer of 1995, interestingly enohgh while attending an organists' convention in noirthern Michigan. I have not attempted to obtain an Israeli license since moving to Jerusalem in July 1996, because at now 81, then 64, I realize my reaction time may be too slow and I may have too much a tendency to snooz to be the very safe driver I was when younger. Numerous times an Egged bus driver has awakened me in the late evening so would not pass my stop! The bus system could be better but I am glad it is as good as it is, and the new Light Rail is terrific when my destination permits its use.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/09/3970442/meet-city-manager-ron-carlee-at.html
Dave,
Hiltonia has as good bus service as NJT provides anywhere in Mercer County.
The 609/619 route runs through the middle of Hiltonia on Stuyvesant Avenue and then out to Ewing. At mid day buses are 20 minutes apart on week days, less frequent on Saturdays and an hour apart on Sundays. Weekday service is about 5:30 am to 11:30 pm. Sunday is 6:30 am to 9:30 pm. All buses run by the Trenton Transit Center (train station).
I think most people living in Hiltonia would want a car. Mercer County itself is not well served by public transit. Some places you can't get to at all (Washington Crossing State Park, Hopewell Borough, large parts of Hamilton Township). For other places the service is infrequent. It would be possible to live there without a car and get to the doctor, the dentist, the supermarket and of course to the train. But there would be a lot of limitations.
If you worked in downtown Trenton commuting would be no problem. If you worked in the suburbs at best commuting would take time and you might not be able to get to work at all.
New Jersey Transit's 600 series of buses serve Mercer County. Here is a link to the 609/19 schedule:
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/bus/T0609.pdf
John
Does Hiltonia have decent bus service to the Transit Center? How often do buses run during midday? Do you need a car to live there?
oltmanndWith the trend back to urban living, I think we will see a new balance between urban and suburban.
Actually Trenton has two communities that are attracting new people. One is Mill Hill, a community of row houses built around the time of the Civil War and which re-started in the 60's. It home prices are relatively modest. A lot of young married people and young unmarried people live there. Mill Hill is within walking distance of the Trenton Transit Center (railroad station).
The second is Hiltonia, a suburb but within the city at its western border. It has a lot of large homes built in the 30's on reasonable sized lots. The return to Hiltonia is much more recent. However, it is popular because the homes are quite large; for example a number are 2 story brick Georgian colonials. Hiltonia is a short drive from both Trenton Transit Center and the West Trenton Railroad Station (SEPTA to Philadelphia).
Trenton is a fairly small city without major attractions. So if this can happen in Trenton perhaps it can happen in other small east coast cities also.
John WR I don't suggest Americans are going to give up our cars. But if our cities were safe and had reasonable amenities then some people might find the relatively low cost housing which they do have to be attractive and choose to live there. There are people who find walking or a short transit ride to be an acceptable way to live. This is especially true of young childless adults and retired people. Even now our cities might be re-invented as the new suburbs.
I don't suggest Americans are going to give up our cars. But if our cities were safe and had reasonable amenities then some people might find the relatively low cost housing which they do have to be attractive and choose to live there. There are people who find walking or a short transit ride to be an acceptable way to live. This is especially true of young childless adults and retired people.
Even now our cities might be re-invented as the new suburbs.
With the trend back to urban living, I think we will see a new balance between urban and suburban. I don't think suburbs are going away any time soon, but certainly, the "overcorrection" from urban to suburban living induced by highway construction in the 50s and 60s has come to an end.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
John WRI though of getting a bike again. However, there is so much traffic here I am afraid I would get hit. So I have to use my car for local errands even though I would rather not.
Ditto. Even when bike lanes are available, they are nothing more than some striping on the shoulder of the road. Other roads around here don't really have shoulders at all forcing bikers onto the running lanes - often on roads that have 40-45 mph speed limits (and traffic moving 10 mph faster than the limit) Way too scary for me...
OvermodDon't forget bicycles.
You're absolutely right. There was a day when I had a bike. I attached baskets to the sides of the rear wheels and that was enough to carry just about all of the small stuff I would get on errands. A bag of fertilizer was too big for my bike but other garden supplies, groceries or library books would always fit nicely.
I though of getting a bike again. However, there is so much traffic here I am afraid I would get hit. So I have to use my car for local errands even though I would rather not.
John WR There are people who find walking or a short transit ride to be an acceptable way to live.
Don't forget bicycles. Those make reasonable commuting distance to a train almost as great as possible cost-effectively with automobiles. And you can strap considerably more purchases on them, or on a trailer they pull, than you could carry comfortably by hand or in a hand-pulled cart.
Memphis has recognized this by putting a 'free to use' bike rack on every bus. It's very seldom that that rack doesn't see use for at least part of any given trip. It's also part of the argument/discussion about supplying free bike racks either at stations or on board trains.
Now all we need is a proper weatherproof and heated/cooled/air-conditioned version of something as light as a bicycle. Why not the vehicular equivalent of the Cri-Cri ultralight? (Fun things are possible using this design model... !)
Pedetrian malls have been succeses in some places like Minni MN and Burlington VT and Faulures in places like Buffalo NY and Erie PA
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