What about the Boondoggle that is the Detroit Downtown People Mover? I rode that line and you could ride through abandoned skyscrapers in Detroit so much for a catlist for development.
Now if the Streetcar is a core for a later much bigger rail system then maybe..I dont see how the Cincy Streetcar is going to work when it does not even get people to the front door of the University of Cincy or to Covingtons entertainment district......But its been turned into if we dont build it someone else is going to get the federal money and there goes my poltical kickbacks from contractors....Chicago should have been the first city to put in a streetcar or Obamatram
I don't know the Cincinnati siituation and you may be 100% correct. But before writing off streetcars completely, one should look at the terrific success of the F line in San Francisco and their plans for the E line which has some successful trial operation and is waiting upon restoration of more dooble-end cars. Portland may be another example. Chicago could use a strreetcar to run from Union Station to Michigan Avenue and so tie commuter rail, the two subway and two elevated lines, and the ex-IC Metra Eelectric together and distribute passengers more efficently than the prresent shuttle buses. It should, of course, be designed for miniiimum impact on auto traffic.
A streetcar route in the Loop area on the route suggested is a solution in search of a problem. The RTA has a link-up provision where and additional fee on your Metra monthly ticket will allow you to ride CTA from your downtown station to work. There are several CTA routes linking the commuter stations with the Near North Side and other parts of the Loop area so the service already exists.
A streetcar route in the Loop area that has a minimum impact on auto traffic would be an impossibility, there isn't anywhere to put it.
Is parking allowed on the east - west streets running through the Loop? If not, a streetcar lane shared with autos against the curb should not cause any more problems for motorists than the buses do. The eastbound track would be one block north of the westbound track and the track on Michigan Avenue connecting them would be on the west side against the curb. There used to be a "Northwest Passage" connecting th eold C&NW station with the Lake Street elevated, but the last time I used the "Ogilby Transportation Center" one had to go out on the street. Has this been fixed?
The "Northwest Passage" was eliminated when Track 1 in North Western Station was reinstated during its rebuilding. As a general rule, street parking is not allowed in the Loop but I still don't see how a streetcar would be an improvement over existing bus service, much of which is provided by multiple routes. Historically, service on Michigan Avenue was provided by Chicago Motor Coach buses and Chicago Surface Lines streetcars never ran on Michigan Avenue.
Bonas What about the Boondoggle that is the Detroit Downtown People Mover? I rode that line and you could ride through abandoned skyscrapers in Detroit so much for a catlist for development. Now if the Streetcar is a core for a later much bigger rail system then maybe..I dont see how the Cincy Streetcar is going to work when it does not even get people to the front door of the University of Cincy or to Covingtons entertainment district......But its been turned into if we dont build it someone else is going to get the federal money and there goes my poltical kickbacks from contractors....Chicago should have been the first city to put in a streetcar or Obamatram
Detriot may be a special case. I don't think any "cats" can "list" things that will bring back poor, old Detroit. It's been dead too long.
Elsewhere, streetcar/light rail has had some pretty good applications. Even the goofy line they are putting in here in Atlanta was based on a good idea. I just think they botched the design. If they had extended it just a bit to pick up World of Coke, the Aquarium, CNN Center, GA World Congress Center and the surrounding hotels, they could have had a real winner with tourists. As it is now, the line will stop on other of the park from these destinations. Too bad.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
It is hard to see how the name "Obamatrams" can be used to describe streetcars in Detroit or Cincinnatti.
The Detroit streetcar (people mover) was opened in 1976 and closed in 2003. President Obama was first elected in November, 2008.
In Cincinnatti there was a 2011 ballot initiative to ban building any streetcar line until 2020. The initiative was defeated by the people of Cincinnatti. Total cost will be about $102 million. The Federal Government is expected to pay $25 million with the rest coming from state and local sources. It seems clear that with the Federal funds alone no streetcar could be built.
So what do streetcars in Cincinnatti or Detroit have to do with President Obama?
John WR It is hard to see how the name "Obamatrams" can be used to describe streetcars in Detroit or Cincinnatti. The Detroit streetcar (people mover) was opened in 1976 and closed in 2003. President Obama was first elected in November, 2008. In Cincinnatti there was a 2011 ballot initiative to ban building any streetcar line until 2020. The initiative was defeated by the people of Cincinnatti. Total cost will be about $102 million. The Federal Government is expected to pay $25 million with the rest coming from state and local sources. It seems clear that with the Federal funds alone no streetcar could be built. So what do streetcars in Cincinnatti or Detroit have to do with President Obama?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A streetcar improvement for the transit passenger over a bus? Even traveling short distances, I find standing on a streetcar a lot more comfortable than standing on a bus. Sitting down the difference is much less. CSSSBH -- do you commute regularly and have to use a bus? (I do, at age 81.)
And so the lack of an off-street weather-protection connection between the Transportation Center and the Lake Street El is OK with the commuters and management? I know Chicago weather.
daveklepperAnd so the lack of an off-street weather-protection connection between the Transportation Center and the Lake Street El is OK with the commuters and management? I know Chicago weather.
Speaking as a local, I believe the NW Passage was never very popular. Most commuters from either Ogilvie (UP lines) or Union Station (MILW and BNSF lines) to addresses in the Loop walk (fast), since the distances are mostly under one mile. Some ride buses. If the destination is North Michigan across the river, most use a bus. In any case, Union Station commuters never had the option of taking the L.
In Cleveland I saw the Waterfront line shut down after 9 years or so of service. The Line did serve a commutation purpose as it connected the waterfront parking lots and the Finacial District on East 9th where it did get some riders in the rush hour. Now it only see service during browns games...without operating funds you are screwed
I am a daily commuter and ride Metra's Southwest Service. Until about 2008, this was a rail-bus operation with Pace express buses (Route 835) providing off-peak and supplemental rush-hour service. I regularly rode a morning express bus and a train in the evening for several years. When Southwest Service was expanded to an all-day operation, the express buses were discontinued.
The ride was convenient for both directions and I found little real difference between bus and rail as far as comfort and punctuality.
daveklepper Even traveling short distances, I find standing on a streetcar a lot more comfortable than standing on a bus.
You make a very good point, Dave. Standing on a street car is a lot easier. Even standing on a New York subway is a lot easier than standing on a bus. It is possible to stand without holding on to anything. On a bus no one would stand without holding on if there is something to hold on to. The New Jersey Transit buses I ride do not always offer a hand hold when the bus is crowded or when there is a hand hold it may be in a place that does not offer support. I have seen people fall down on buses.
John
When it comes to public transit issues -
There are two kinds of people - Those with VISION and those without it.
Those with vision can see what requirements for an area will become in 10 - 20 - 30 years into the future and begin building to have infrastructure in place to handle the demand.
Those without vision complain that they don't have the facilities they need today, because they were too blind to see and too deaf to hear those with vision 10 - 20 - 30 years ago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD When it comes to public transit issues - There are two kinds of people - Those with VISION and those without it. Those with vision can see what requirements for an area will become in 10 - 20 - 30 years into the future and begin building to have infrastructure in place to handle the demand. Those without vision complain that they don't have the facilities they need today, because they were too blind to see and too deaf to hear those with vision 10 - 20 - 30 years ago.
That's absolutely true. That is why most cities have 20 story buildings right up against the sidewalk making it impossible to widen the streets.
I have stated my opinion about mixing rail and rubber tires. Perhaps the answer is to eliminate the cars on busy city center streets and run ONLY street cars.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I don't have to live with it every day, but I have for many years felt that elimination of autos on city center streets would be a great improvement
Phoebe Vet have stated my opinion about mixing rail and rubber tires. Perhaps the answer is to eliminate the cars on busy city center streets and run ONLY street cars.
I think the real issue is how can be make center cities into the economic centers they used to be. They used to have large department stores as well as theaters which have moved out. Much of the office space they once had has also moved out. What is left is mostly government offices; there is nothing wrong with that but government offices by themselves cannot support a city. There are some banks and small business but those tend to move away too.
For several years I worked in Trenton, New Jersey, a small city and the state capital and county seat.. Local transit is by bus, all of which pass through the center of the city. For reasons I don't understand Trenton has made many of its down town streets into one way streets. It has supplemented on street parking with parking garages which are more expensive than on street parking.
When I talked to people coming into our down town office they would say two things over and over: "I can't find on street parking" and "I grew up in this city but now I can't find my way around in it." Trenton has no department store, no theater, and very little of anything other than government. When people leave work they leave Trenton.
One way streets are an attempt to provide more traffic lanes when it is not possible to widen the street.
Elimination of on street parking gives you another traffic lane when it is not possible to widen the street.
All those businesses move out of city center because of the traffic congestion and the shortage of free or cheap parking.
The only solution is fewer cars and more mass transit. Adding a street car without reducing the vehicle traffic just increases the congestion.
Phoebe VetAll those businesses move out of city center because of the traffic congestion and the shortage of free or cheap parking.
Perhaps more importantly, businesses move -- or complain they're losing traffic -- when 'special' lanes for transit or bicycles decrease availability of nearby parking. The 'solution' for this ASSUREDLY does not involve streetcars to any significant extent, and unless some critical mass of foot traffic can be established (together with businesses that can cater to foot traffic), as in some of the popular malls, there are problems for businesses as well. I cannot point to a single example where businesses along the route of a dedicated transit lane have seen an influx of new business as a result -- and that includes the wacky bus-lane instantiations in New York.
Adding a street car while reducing the vehicle traffic -- as has been done, for example, here in downtown Memphis -- obviously reduces 'congestion' for the traffic served by the cars, but may produce greater congestion elsewhere. And I doubt that any modern streetcar system will have enough cars on enough routes to satisfy all the needs of vehicular traffic.
Don't conclude from this that I don't like light rail (or heavier rail like the DC Metro or BART) as a means to get places without a car. I do, regularly. But I'm going to meetings or to conventions, not shopping. Having to lug things around changes many more aspects.
I agree.
All this is relavent, but values and businesses along the Portland streetcar have increased in value. Of course in Portland, many people do use the light rail system to downtown, so that is what reduced congestion and now the streetcar makes getting around downtwon more pleasant.
And Portland does mix rail adn rubber for the streetcar lanes . But wihtout MAX, the light rail system that operates only in exclusive lanes, to bring people downtown by public transit, the streetcar would not work very well because of traffic congestion.
Also, we should be careful about what kind of "rubber" we are talking about. Streetcars and buses sharing exclusive transit lanes make a great deal of sense, including the tunnels in Seattle and Pittsburgh and Edmonton's 7th Avenue Transit Mall, shared by buses and the light rail trains.
Note that in New York City, I am suggesting that streetcars would be very useful for the stretch of Broadway Columbus Circle (59th St.) north to 125th Street, where there is a center mall that can provide for left-hand loading, very little through auto traffic, enough retaill stores, theatres, and restaurants to benefit from the horizontal elevator concept, and most people use public transit to access the area (via subway and bus) to begin with. Similarly, Surf Avenue, Coney Island, Brooklyn, but with a mall needed. I would not recommend for the major Manhattan north-south one-way Avenues that handle the bulk of the auto traffic.
Phoebe VetThe only solution is fewer cars and more mass transit. Adding a street car without reducing the vehicle traffic just increases the congestion.
There are a fair number of people who do live in Trenton. Many have low income. The line up for the buses that will take then to suburban malls to do their shopping. It seems a paradox that there are no down town stores for them.
Within the city bus service is quite good. In the suburbs it is sparse or non existent. I have read letters to the editor in the local newspaper from people who complain that the bus service is so bad they must drive to the train station to commute even though they would prefer to take a bus.
You mean that they would prefer to tak the bus if they did not have to drive to board it.
The Embrcadaro in San Francisco and doowntown Portland report considerable increase in business, restaurants and sstores, with the introduction of streetcars. This despite the fact that the Embarcadaaro was already served by the Powell-Hyde and Powell-Mason cable-car lines that brought lots of tourist before the "F" Market Street streetcar was extended along the Embarcadaro. I have not checked with Kenosha, but I suspect the results are similar there. But again, in all three cases there is a good transit system to bring people to the shopping area in the first place,. In San Franncisco, it is commuter rail (currentlly diesel but to be electrified), ferries, buses, light rail-subway, and BART commuter-rapid transit. In Portland it is mostllly light rail now, and in Kenosha it is a well-managed bus system, apporpriate for the size of the city and density of residential areas.
An intersting case iis in Argentina, Buonos Aries, where a retail chain bought the right-of-way of a decreped freight railroad and converted it to modern light rail to tie together all its retail stories along a correidor and then developed commuter business. But this is really light rail, not streetcar. The intersting thing though is that the motivation was the same as the downtown circulator streetcars, and the commuter business with the devopment of park and ride came as an afterthought.
daveklepper You mean that they would prefer to take the bus if they did not have to drive to board it.
You mean that they would prefer to take the bus if they did not have to drive to board it.
Right. But look at that a moment. Often farther than just going ahead to the railroad station in the first place. And then have very limited if any parking -- one 'sensible' thing is that park 'n ride lots for buses are not usually found in reasonable proximity to rail stations serving the same general destination.
Apologies if this is a whooooosh.
I stand in grave danger of swerveing into the political here, and for that I apologize in advance, but I have to comment on businesses leaving downtown areas. Certainly the lack of cheap parking has a lot to do with it, but remember business tends to go where it's most welcome. A business in the city has to deal with (usually) a higher rate of taxation than one in the 'burbs. People start businesses to make money, not to have that money siphoned away by short-sighted politicians who want to use that money to buy votes and buy power.
Not every city is the same, of course, and the template doesn't apply to all, but here in Richmond Va. about the only businesses that exist in the downtown area pretty much cater to the lunchtime crowd. After six PM you may as well roll the streets and sidewalks up. It's a lot like John WR's description of Trenton, the main business of Richmond now is government, with some big law firms on the side. The big department stores and ancillary businesses are gone. They're all out in the malls.
I strongly disagree that there is anything political about businesses leaving city centers. Suburban shopping centers and malls killed center city shopping about the same time the shopping public moved from mass transit and high rise apartment buildings to automobiles and single family neighborhoods in the suburbs.
Roads that cannot be widened, traffic lights on every corner, and paid parking ramps cannot compete with multi-lane roads and free parking. It's really that simple.
Phoebe VetI strongly disagree that there is anything political about businesses leaving city centers.
Dave,
I have to disagree with you here. In Europe and in Canada many many people have moved to the suburbs and like their cars as much as Americans do. But the cities and the suburbs are part of the same administrative and taxing districts. As a result, a fair number of people have chosen to live down town because they like the idea that many amenities are a short way away by bus or transit. Many have cars but use transit to commute and to go to close in places; on the weekend to get away they drive. And many rent a car as they need to. These places have suburbs but have also maintained cities as reasonable places to live.
In the US the suburbs are insulated from urban problems. They don't have to pay their share of taxes for them. People live in the suburbs and drive to work, often driving into the city to work, precisely to avoid the city problems. Typically, people in the US, when they buy a home, consider how much property taxes they pay. You can reduce your property tax rate simply by moving out to the suburbs. And many people do just that.
Politics is the way we make public policy. And our public policies in the US are behind the deterioration of our cities. Suburban shopping malls are part of our public policies about taxing and land use.
Phoebe VetRoads that cannot be widened, traffic lights on every corner, and paid parking ramps cannot compete with multi-lane roads and free parking. It's really that simple.
Provided you are privileged enough to own a car, or have the right and the wherewithal to use paratransit. I recently spent a few months 'not driving', and it can be remarkable how your choice of business -- and even how you shop and what you shop for -- changes when you can't just throw bags and parcels in the back and let the engine do the carrying home. Or your finding a particular business or service is determined by what you can see from the window as you ride...
Something interesting in this connection is that many automobile-centric business models are predicated in large part on 'impulse buying'. I had my non-theoretical introduction to this... and I thought we in our family were careful and frugal shoppers! -- when my mother developed cancer and started ordering 'delivery' groceries from a local market (which incidentally charged much higher unit prices, and then had a nontrivial delivery fee on top of that). I started running numbers a couple of months in to see how bad the damage was -- and found the net grocery cost had gone DOWN, not up, even though the food that was prepared and served was in the same portions and, if anything, of higher quality.
We can look at the Wal-Mart business model in this light -- relatively big stores at least theoretically offering low prices, located outside city limits where real estate and taxes are lowest, usually with the implicit assumption that the large mass of stuff purchased will be transported... well, some other way than toting large numbers of bags, or a cart, onto a bus (or streetcar) that goes near your home. As little stores and markets 'die off' due to this competition (as they did earlier, in smaller proportion, with chain stores and supermarkets) the situation can become even more skewed against mass transit
Another point that I think should be considered is the proportion of tourists or visitors who may be riding 'streetcar' lines (and shopping as they go). The kinds of businesses such people patronize would, almost by definition, be close to or visible from the trams, in much the same general sense that outlet malls are now built 'outside' rather than in enclosed weatherproof arcades. It might be appropriate to distinguish 'tourist' businesses and needs from those of the 'general public' that most of these streetcar systems were nominally built (and generally subsidized out the wazoo!) to serve.
Also, has anyone noticed the somewhat delicious irony that some streetcar lines, instead of being extended out to suburbs under development or attractions built -- where land prices and taxes are cheap -- to stimulate traffic out from center cities, are now being built to carry suburban people into revivified 'core' zones [insert other euphemisms to get around negative connotations associated with center city decay assumptions...]?
Pedetrian malls have been succeses in some places like Minni MN and Burlington VT and Faulures in places like Buffalo NY and Erie PA
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