Yes/ By all means Google the Autority's website and view and download a photo.
I would assume that a 77-foot LRV is probably articulated.
KC Streetcar has begun overnight testing its newest streetcar, #807,following conclusion of service on Feb. 7. This marks the first timethat #807 traveled along the downtown streetcar route after in-shopinspections and testing
Just five days after its arrival from Elmira, N.Y., KC Streetcar #807hit the tracks under its own power to perform nighttime testing. Thisfirst test run of #807 was conducted along Main Street between 18thStreet and Pershing Road and included various propulsion and braketests. During that time, Main Street was closed to all traffic andon-street parking was prohibited between 18th Street and PershingRoad. Members of the streetcar project team, including KC StreetcarAuthority, the city of Kansas City, Mo., Herzog Transit Services Inc.and CAF (manufacturer of the streetcar vehicles), workedcollaboratively on this first test run of the KC Streetcar #807.CAF-manufactured streetcars contain three different braking systems:friction, dynamic and track (emergency) brakes. Nighttime tests willmonitor all three braking systems and are performed with empty, orlight load, streetcars, as well as fully loaded and weightedstreetcars to simulate crowded and max loaded streetcars. Upcomingtest runs will include further tests of the brake system in variousscenarios, including under maximum vehicle speeds of 43 mph. Duringon-route testing, the public is asked to keep a safe distance fromcrews while tests are being performed. Any automobiles in unsafeproximity to testing will be towed.Since its arrival on February 2, KC Streetcar #807 has gone through aseries of inspections and static (non-movement) vehicle tests withinthe Singleton Yard Vehicle Maintenance Facility. These inspectionsincluded visual inspections and systems checks (vehicle leveling,interior sensors, door mechanisms, etc.). KC Streetcar #807 will gothrough several weeks of testing before being put into publicoperation once all tests are successfully completed and the streetcaris deemed safe for passenger service.As with the original streetcars, each new streetcar is abi-directional vehicle approximately 77 feet long and weighs 78,000lbs. New streetcars will come with new interior displays showing nextstop arrivals, an enhanced on-board video surveillance system andother system upgrades including exterior lights, air compressors,train-to-wayside communication system and an advanced driver assistsystem (ADAS). All existing streetcars will be retrofit to meet thenew specifications.
Thank you Dave for these fascinating details. It never occurred to me that horse cars and steam cars could share the same track. I suppose they sent the steam (express) train first with the horse car (local) following it.
John
But it was still a two-tradk railroad up Park Avenue in Manhattan. No error, no conflict. What the Vanderbilt's did, to separate the horsecars from the steam trains, was to build a separte horsecar line on Madison Avenue, one block west of Paek Avenue. Possibly this is what was meant by the 4-track reference you may have seen. And the "first streetcar line in North America" even when converted to bus by GM management in 1935, continued to run of 4th Avenue and Park Avenue South (name changes at 33rd or 34th Streets), a block and a half (fist intersectionn is with Vanderbilt Av. but onlyoon the north side) on 42nd Street, and north to the 138th Street bridge and east to the New York Central "The Bronx" station. This was the first "Green Lines" system that was converted to bus, and GM made quite a todo out of it, with a ceremoial booklet giving the history. GM bought the then conduuit streetcar line from the Vanderbilts in 1932, but it had been operated pretty much as part of New York Railways "Green Lines" (bought from the Metroplitan Railway bankrupt proceedings by GM iin 1926) ffor some years prior. The 86th St. Crosstown was part of the NY&Harlem, and it was inclllluded and was the last of the "Green Lines" converted,, and I rode that line often, converted to bus in the summer of 1936, at my age of 4-1/2. (I let out quuite a bawl at having to use the bus.) Later, the 138th Street bridge and the street trackage in the Bbronx was shared with the Third Avenue ("red car") system,, and was the very last streetcar line in Manhattan with the exception of the Queensboro Bridge Ry, 136th was converted in the summer of 1948. the QBRy in 1957. But NY&Harlem-NYRY conduit current supply was never installed across the bridge or on 138th Street. So NY&H then NY Railways had three of their standard streetcars equipped with trolley poles to use Third Avenue's overhead wire, and ran a shuttle from 135th Street where the conduit streetcars from Park Row, lower Mnahattan, reversed. Bur tthe conduit did continue up to 138th Street, and I saw it when ridiing the crosstown, which used 135th Street in Manhattan the Madison Avenue between 135th and 138th. Its remence could be seen until the 138th crosstown went bus and the tracks finallly covered over.
The station "The Bronx" was underutillized in later years and was torn down, I think about the time the NYC replaced the 4-track Harlem River drawrbridge with the current lift bridge inn the 1950's.
Dave,
I relied on Wikipedia, The New York and Harlem Railroad, for the information about the line to Chatham. Here is exactly what is says:
"January 19, 1852 - north to Chatham 4 corners with a connection to the Albany and West Stockbridge Railroad and trackage rights northwest to Albany."
Is than an error?
The ouside tracks for four tracks north of Grand Central Depot were not added until the construction of the first building of that station around 1871. The Bridge where the original two tracks crossed from Manhattan to The Bronx is not at Willliams Bridge, which is named for an east-west bridge that crossed a creek in The Bronx. The exising bridge, which is the fourth in its location, runs between 130th Street Manhattan and 133rd Street in The Bronx. In New York Central days, the first station located north of 125th Street was at 138th Street and was named simply "The Bronx." Williams Bridge is still a Bronx local station on the Harlem Division line, cut back from Chatham to Wassaic, and is approximately at East 215th Street, Gun Hill Road.
One day during my 1971-1996 stint as a reverse commuter on that division, there was a serious problem at Grand Central Terminal, and my homeward bound train discharged all its passengers at Williams Bridge, where we told to walk two long blocks east and pass through the exit gate of the IRT Gun Hill Road station to continue our Manhattan-bounnd journey on the subway.
The earliest street railway in the US that I know of was the New York and Harlem Railroad. It began in lower Manhattan in 1832 using horsecars and by 1837 was completed to 125th St. in Manhattan. It ran north along Park Avenue (then 4th Avenue).
Two outside tracks were added. They left Manhattan at Williamsbridge and meandered up New York State east of the Hudson River, reaching Chatham in 1857. Steam engines pulled the cars on these outer tracks.
In 1864 Cornelius Vanderbilt had retired and needed something to amuse himself. He brought the street railway as a plaything. He would live to see it become the biggest, wealthiest and most powerful railroad in the country although the Pennsylvania would ultimately push it into second place.
Interested in how a streetcar network evolved from a horse-drawn streetcar line into a state-of-the-art "people mover" in a German city?
Here is some reading:
Verkehrsbetriebe Karlsruhe
All that is old is new again. However, I predict that cities will not return to horsecars in order to produce manure for suburban gardens.
henry6 Today's philosophy is for "light rail" which is a combination of old trolley-street car running and interurban private right of way running.
Today's philosophy is for "light rail" which is a combination of old trolley-street car running and interurban private right of way running.
No, the new streetcar revolution is not light rail, per se, which still is growing in many metropolitan areas as a commuting option.
The "modern streetcar" follows the examples done by Portland and Seattle, where a rail vehicle, standard gauge, though smaller in size and heft than a LRV, circulates around a retail district. Where light rail lines are more than 5 miles long and are entirely publicly funded, the modern streetcar is less than 5 miles in length and is funded by a public/private partnership, generally in the form of local business sponsorships or an assessment district in the immediate area. In Portland, stations are named after the nearby businesses that have sponsored them.
Stakeholders in Downtown Los Angeles recently voted to build a modern streetcar, which would link offices, residential buildings, shopping areas and sporting/entertainment venues (Staples Center/LA Live).
Sir MadogThe Ruhr Industrial area most likely sports the largest streetcar network in the world, connecting 7 major cities in that area. One line even has an on board meal service.
Not to mention the Schwebebahn, which makes any piddling little streetcars look puny...
Ulrich, you're never going to hear me putting down the beer and streetcars of Germany! I rode the line from Essen to Bochum-Dahlhausen a few years ago to see the rail museum there. A pity the beer tent was closed. Yes, they make beer out of different stuff in Belgium, but Canada's got them beat. A brewery in Ottawa makes a beer without hops, using spruce and coriander and other items. It's called a "Gruit" and it's horrible!
I was in Munich a few years ago riding the streetcars and I think it's where line 20 turns around. There's a shed there selling cigarettes, newspapers and lottery tickets and the all-important Weissbier Fruhstuck which I enjoyed most pleasantly, thank you very much!
54light15 If you like streetcars and beer, Belgium is the place!
If you like streetcars and beer, Belgium is the place!
Objection, your honor!
How about Germany? The Ruhr Industrial area most likely sports the largest streetcar network in the world, connecting 7 major cities in that area. One line even has an on board meal service.
Let´s not talk about beer - the Belgians make beer out of strange things, not necessarily only water, hop and yeast.
If you think I don't know who Lucille Fay LeSueur is, you are sadly mistaken. (snicker) The story I heard about how Vivien Leigh got to play Scarlett O'hara? She went for a screen test and every man in the room said "What a set of T...!" She could hold my trolley pole any time.
54light15You guys can have Blanche, for me there is only the 1941 model of Jane Russell, or the 1950 Sophia Loren. The 1955 Gina Lollobrigida will do nicely. The 1971 Pam Grier? Yes!
Excellent taste -- but those are movie actresses, not theatre girls. And none of the screen versions of Streetcar had even remotely believable Southern women in them. What's with these English girls playing Southern girls (Tandy, Leigh, Taylor) when they could have had something genuine -- Ava Gardner, for one, or Bette Davis, or even Lucille Fay LeSueur for heaven's sake (Texas being Southern enough). And then... I for one would like to see Samantha Anderson, er, tackle the role of Blanche. I am disgusted that I can't remember the name of the Southern actress with that fantastic contralto voice -- she'd bring a great deal to the role without Delta Dawning it.
On the other other hand, probably the finest portrayal of a -- different -- kind of Southern girl was done by Australian Nicole Kidman; it's a triumph, just enough truth to keep it out of farce. That takes talent!!
RME
You guys can have Blanche, for me there is only the 1941 model of Jane Russell, or the 1950 Sophia Loren. The 1955 Gina Lollobrigida will do nicely. The 1971 Pam Grier? Yes!
Delirium Tremens? Last summer I was in their pub in Brussels- Holy Flurkin Schnitt! What a place! It's about 6 different beer halls all in one building, the beer list is a loose-leaf binder with about 2,000 different brands! The streetcar system of Brussels? To die for! As well as the systems of Antwerp, Ostende and the line that goes from the entire width of the country along the channel coast. If you like streetcars and beer, Belgium is the place!
Also, there is an amazing classic car museum in Brussels with just about every classic you've ever heard of and a lot most people haven't like Minerva, Imperia and FN, all Belgium domestic makes and all long out of business. There's a lot of Studebakers there also, it seems Stude had a pretty good dealer network over there back in the 50s. Not to get off topic, but I'm a classic car guy too. In the museum is a car used by the king of Belgium until about 1995; a 1965 Lincoln Continental convertible. Them Belgians, they have good taste.
John WRAnd gee whiz, man, all I need is a short time with Blanche. You know what I mean.
I am very sad to hear that, and Blanche probably is, too.
May I recommend Detane?
54light15But, what about beer El Dorado, sought by many, attained by few?
You've found the right metaphor! But you forgot to mention the beautiful golden color of the prize... ;-}
Which reminds me of the $115.00 dollar bottle of beer from the Samuel Adams brewery, 26% alcohol. Just the thing to crack open and pound down after mowing the lawn!
Why waste your money on that overpriced Yuppie scam when you could have had a Delirium Tremens (the third best thing ever out of Belgium, after Walschaerts and Belpaire)? Or for that matter, a boilermaker with New Amsterdam black and tan, perhaps the best beer (after Black Douglas of course) and a tasty touch of Everclear, if you need that much proof from beer.
Some people will buy almost ANYTHING if you mark it exclusive, jack up the price, and do enough weird advertising. (In all fairness, I do like Sam Adams, it's worlds better than the World's Most Overrated Beer (Heineken). But it's also worlds worse than Brooklyn Lager, or any New Amsterdam beer...
54light15Yeah, but my name's Larry, not Mitch. And it sure ain't Pablo.
Hey Larry, good buddy. You would get on great with Stan and Stella. And gee whiz, man, all I need is a short time with Blanche. You know what I mean. I know I can count on you.
Yeah, but my name's Larry, not Mitch. And it sure ain't Pablo.
Yeah, that' s a pretty fair summation of "Mecca." But, what about beer El Dorado, sought by many, attained by few? Which reminds me of the $115.00 dollar bottle of beer from the Samuel Adams brewery, 26% alcohol. Just the thing to crack open and pound down after mowing the lawn!
But, back to streetcars, I read in the paper today that there is going to be a line running south off of the King St line here in Toronto to serve a totally new development in the southeast part of the city. We're going to host the Pan Am games in 2015, the athletes will be staying in the new area and naturally, the new line won't be ready in time. That's the Toronna way!
Maybe if you go bowling with Stanley and bring Stella along Blanche and I can have a little time for -- ahem -- romance.
All this talk about beer and Blanche DuBois makes me want to go bowling for some strange reason.
Where is there a mental hospital adjacent to that line?
And anyway, she'd have to be what, at least 100 years old by now.
Getting back to street cars I see on News Wire that New Orleans is building another street car line that will connect Canal Street to Elysian Fields Avenue. When it is done it will be possible to get off the train and hop on the street car to visit Blanche.
Overmod:
"Beer Heaven" is almost entirely wrong, for reasons the Rev. Horton Heat has sermonized upon many a time..."
In heaven there is no beer
That's why we drink it here
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Firelock76Next time tell them to say "beer nirvana." That should be OK.
No, that's not OK. You miss the point of the guy's metaphor.
Mecca is a place you honor so highly you make a PILGRIMAGE to it. A place you revere so much that you face toward it as you pray to the higher power.
Nirvana is very different -- it is a state, a state you get to by NOT worshiping beer or anything else.
"Beer Central" is just a place you go to get some.
"Beer Heaven" is almost entirely wrong, for reasons the Rev. Horton Heat has sermonized upon many a time...
It was best as written, Homeland Security fascisti or no... ;-}
long beach railfan I think more metropolitan areas could be well served by streetrunning transportation in some form or another. The biggest obstacle would be funding it.
In Northern New Jersey it is common for some bus lines to follow the same or nearly the same routes street cars once used. The areas that were densely populated in the days of street cars are still densely populated.
54light15but I will try to not use the word 'Mecca" with American customs guys.
They have no sense of humor.
Enh, I imagine they've learned their lesson but I will try to not use the word 'Mecca" with American customs guys.
Next time tell them to say "beer nirvana." That should be OK.
O maybe "suds central."
Portland, Oregon is a place I've been meaning to get to one day. It's also got a ton of micro-breweries and brewpubs. A few years ago, two friends of mine flew to Portland to partake of the beverages. The customs guy asked them, "Why did you come to Portland?" One of the guys said, "We've heard that it's a beer mecca." The fact that the man that said that had dark skin, black curly hair and a beard did not help matters. It was about three hours before they could leave the airport.
I'm surprised to hear any city in Arizona is considering streetcars or any new public transit. I understand that Senator McCain opposes public transit and his word is pretty much law in Arizona. Has he had a change of heart?
Portland, Oregon has a new streetcar line running through the downtown area. A second section opened last fall running down the opposite side of the Willamette river (you can ride it to the new steam engine museum with two 4-8-4's on exhibit). In a few years the two sections will be connected at the southern end by a new bridge being built primarily for a new light rail line (the two sections connect at the northern end at this time). Portland has several light rail lines with both exclusive right of way (including a tunnel through the west hills) and street running in the city center. The street car system is a separate enterprise owned by the city of Portland but operated by the TriMet transit district that owns the light rail and bus system.
The rational for the wholly street running streetcar is that it makes frequent stops along the street without high level platforms so it is convenient for people to jump on and off when making short trips through the inner city. The original line has been popular, the newer section serves a less busy part of town and it is hoped that it will increase economic development in this area.
Tucson, Cincinnati, and Washington are all building similar streetcar (street running in mixed traffic with smaller vehicles than modern light rail) lines. Tempe, Arizona is in planning stages for a streetcar system also and Charlotte, NC is having a political fight over funding for a planned system (both of these cities are served by light rail and the streetcar would be a local street running supplement as in Portland). This is the market United Streetcars is planning to serve. The Portland streetcar is using cars made in the Czech Republic but has additional cars on order from United Streetcar. There have been a number of delays in the United Streetcar order but I believe a prototype car is being tested by Portland streetcar at this time.
Yea, I guess I didn't think that one through! I'm sure DC's Metro routes handle that volume during rush hour.
rfpjohn I kind of doubt 20,000 people ride the entire GRTC system per day! 20,000 per hour seems like an awful lot. Does any system carry that many patrons?
I kind of doubt 20,000 people ride the entire GRTC system per day! 20,000 per hour seems like an awful lot. Does any system carry that many patrons?
You've obviously never ridden the Chicago Transit Authority rapid transit lines during morning rush hour.
Light,
If you talk about Toronto public transit I will become enraged with jealousy. I lived in Toronto in the late 60's. Even them your system is much better than any in the eastern US except New York.
John, Here is Toronto, Canada. Home of a pretty good streetcar system that I ride just about every day. I live directly on the King street line (the 504) and it stops across the street from my front door. The Roncesvalles division streetcar yard is about 3 blocks away. Just to be specific.
daveklepper Streetcars definitely COULD return to Richmond, but they would be pure streetcars, not light rail or light light rail. They would be similar to the Portland system, and would share lanes with rubber-tired traffic, limiting their speed and usefulness. Portland, OR, would show the way. Is there any bus route in Richmond that handles more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour? Or would ridership projections suggest that the streetcar would do this? Otherwise, sticking with buses makes more economic sense. The 20,000 in one hour generally translates to more than 60,000 or 70,000 per day for the specific line.
Streetcars definitely COULD return to Richmond, but they would be pure streetcars, not light rail or light light rail. They would be similar to the Portland system, and would share lanes with rubber-tired traffic, limiting their speed and usefulness. Portland, OR, would show the way. Is there any bus route in Richmond that handles more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour? Or would ridership projections suggest that the streetcar would do this? Otherwise, sticking with buses makes more economic sense. The 20,000 in one hour generally translates to more than 60,000 or 70,000 per day for the specific line.
A bus route here in Richmond with more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour? Gee, I don't think so Dave, Richmond's not that big, not appreciably bigger than when you were here years ago.
And a pure streetcar sharing the road with rubber-tired traffic is what I addressed in an earlier post, there's just no room for it anymore, more's the pity. Light rail to the city center? I'm not sure where they'd put that either.
I don't know where "here" is.
John, "Affording" cars isn't the point. It's choosing how you get around. Younger people just aren't interested anymore. I'm 57 years old and have owned cars since I was 16. My job requires me to have a car as I do a bit of traveling, but I wouldn't bother owning a daily driver if I didn't have to. I have to go downtown later and I will go by streetcar. I also have 3 classic cars but they aren't exactly daily transportation. I can't drive them to work, my insurance wouldn't cover them if I did. Here, a car is a convenience (especially for taking my empties back to the beer store) but it's not a necessity like so many places.
54light15Re-centralization is already happening, especially with younger people.
The US is moving in this direction but Canada is far ahead of us.
It seems to me there is a conundrum about the US. We Americans are affluent which means we can afford cars. In my state, New Jersey, we have more cars than we have people. My wife an I share one car but that is unusual; people our age typically have one car per person except for children too young to drive. But we use our affluence to pay for our cars, the monthly note, the insurance, parking, repairs and gas. Today gas is over $3.50 a gallon. So all of our money is being spent. Places with decent public transportation actually give their people a better life for less money.
rfpjohn But anyone who has ever tried driving in NOVA rush hour traffic has to realize that rail transit in that region is a must.
And it isn't just Virginia. This is happening in urban areas all over the country.
Re-centralization is already happening, especially with younger people. Statistics show that younger people, between 16 and 30 or so are not buying cars the way we used to as they do their socialising on line and don't need cars for that purpose. I think this is why transit and commuter lines are opening and expanding all across North America since people want to live downtown and walk to work since you can't push the buttons on a smart phone while you drive. (I know, that doesn't stop a lot of people from texting and driving) There are so many construction cranes in Toronto right now, all building condos everywhere. A drive along the Gardiner Expressway reminds me of the approach to the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong. A lot of those condos have minimal parking spaces, one only has nine and they are for those little rental cars that are everywhere now.
Another hopeful sign is that corporations are moving back downtown as that is where their now and future employees live. One example is the Canadian headquarters of Coca-Cola. They used to be out in a suburban office campus and now they are in the middle of the city. Everyone benefits! Less traffic, less pollution so I think the future of mass transit is looking pretty good.
JOHN WR: I would love to see re-centralization. Cities are such an efficient use of space and energy so I hope you are correct. As you said, our roads are filling up. The sprall model has definately shown it's weakness. When the Virginia Railway Express service was first put on, there were more than a few parties betting on it's failure. But anyone who has ever tried driving in NOVA rush hour traffic has to realize that rail transit in that region is a must. Those VRE trains have grown from 3 car, single level consists to 8 car double deckers filled to the gills! Of course they feed a concentrated market destiny, DC. By the way, 3 of the new DC trolleys are visable at the Greenbelt, MD Metro transit yard (carbarn?) I'm still a little confused as to where that trolley line is to run.
rfpjohnI think one drawback to bringing trolleys back to Richmond or for that matter, alot of mid to small size cities is the decentralization of American towns.
Certainly decentralization of our cities and towns is one part of it. But the very decentralization seems to be bringing back re-centralization where certain goods and services need to be distributed from a central point. As our roads fill up with traffic going to strip malls and traffic gets slower and slower we are becoming able to pick out certain points and put in rail transit to them to give people access roads and cars now make difficult at best and sometimes impossible.
But of course it is all expensive because we didn't allow for the infra structure when we were building all of these roads and strip development. Now we are paying the price for our lack of foresight.
I think the article on Richmond is interesting which is why I offer it. But I'm not familiar with the city.
"Rails in Richmond" by Carlton Norris McKenney gives a brief mention of the short lived horse car lines. Great book! I think one drawback to bringing trolleys back to Richmond or for that matter, alot of mid to small size cities is the decentralization of American towns. Suburban sprall, etc. Public transit worked great when there was a predictable traffic pattern. Now we are not so much of a society wanting to go from A to B, we also want to go to C thru Z. Downtown is no longer where great droves of people go to work or shop. Right now we go to Short Pump or Stoney Point until something new and shiny catches our eye, probably quicker than you could begin to dream up a bus or car line to serve. It ain't right, but that's the way it goes!
Wayne,
In al of the pictures I've seen the Richmond Confederate Whitehouse is gray.
I asked Google if Richmond ever had horse cars. The answer is yes, a system was built in 1860 using strap rail. In 1863 it was torn up and the iron was was used for Confederate iron clads. A new system was built in 1866. Here is the link: http://www.richmondthenandnow.com/Newspaper-Articles/Last-Trolley.html
John, what color the Confederate White House is seems to depend on the time of day and how the light hits it. In the mornings it's kind of yellowish gold, in bright sunlight it's white. but most of the time now it's in the shadows of the Medical College of Virginias mega-hospital so certainly at that time it's grey.
Interesting fact here. MCV was founded by Stonewall Jackson's surgeon Dr. Hunter Holmes McGuire.
Did Richmond have horsecars during the war? That's a good question. I don't know.
As long as the subject is lutefisk: Have you heard the Norwegian joke Garrison Kielor told on "Prairie Home Companion" many years ago?
A lady asked a neighbor how she could get rid of a family of skunks that had moved in under her porch. He advised her to spread some lutefisk around the area. A few days later he asked her how it worked. She said, "Fine, the skunks are gone. But now, how do I get rid of the Norwegians?"
I hope you continue to enjoy Virginia. It seems somehow appropriate that Richmond's Confederate Whitehouse is actually gray.
I wonder if Virginia had horsecars during the war.
John WR Wayne, I have to accept your assessment of Richmond. I would have thought Richmond is one city that might appreciate its own heritage but I guess I'm mistaken. John.
I have to accept your assessment of Richmond. I would have thought Richmond is one city that might appreciate its own heritage but I guess I'm mistaken.
John.
This former "Capital of the Confederacy" with a history most cities in the country would KILL to have doesn't seem to know what to do with it or which way to go with it, for various reasons I won't go into.
A pretty good area to live in or around, nothwithstanding.
Wayne
54light15do the Electroliners exist today? If so, where are they?
Yes.
One is at IRM, and it's been lovingly restored to original colors and finish.
The other is at the Rock Hill trolley museum (in Liberty Liner trim), and I have the first option on it.
Herring- yes!
Lutefisk- NO!
Fruitcake- Also NO!
For a real Christmas experience, try a bottle or three of Anchor Brewing Merry Christmas and Happy New Year beer. It's the gold standard of Christmas brews, its tweaked every year and is always excellent. Like drinking gingerbread with lots o' nutmeg and cinnamon.
By the way, there's a 'King of the Hill" episode involving Lutefisk. From what I learned from watching that cartoon, eating a lot of Lutefisk can lead to... Well, lit matches in a church bathroom leads to disaster. Sorry to get off topic. Anyway, do the Electroliners exist today? If so, where are they?
John, you would think Richmond could find a way to re-institute trolley lines, but trust me, the roads they used to run on are so re-vamped and re-built for rubber-tire traffic there's just no way. No room at all. Richmond's got it's GRTC buses and that's as far as they can go practically. It would be horrendously expensive as well. I like trolleys myself but I don't see any way they could turn the clock back on this one.
The old car barns are still in existance, though. They're the bus garages now.
Firelock76Back to trolleys: Here in Richmond Va. the subject of trolley lines comes up from time to time, but quite honestly I don't know where they'd put them. The old right of ways are gone or so heavily remodeled it just wouldn't be practical. Ironic, since Richmond had the first electric trolleys here in the US.
If Washington DC can find a way to build some new trolley lines perhaps Richmond can too.
Hey now wait a minute! I've got to speak up for the much-maligned fruitcake. Boys, if you don't like fruitcake it's because you never had any GOOD fruitcake! If it's done right, man, it's Christmas on a plate! Don't know where my father got the fruitcake we had at Christmastime, probably a place that doesn't exist anymore, but wow, was it good!
Back to trolleys: Here in Richmond Va. the subject of trolley lines comes up from time to time, but quite honestly I don't know where they'd put them. The old right of ways are gone or so heavily remodeled it just wouldn't be practical. Ironic, since Richmond had the first electric trolleys here in the US.
rfpjohnI guess it was kind of a CSX trolley.
Now I understand. It's good to know there are some places that learned from history and didd't trash all of their trolley lines.
I lost my best-loved Manhattan streetcar line at age 14 going on 15 in 1946, and the rest were gone by the time I came back from summer camp in 1947. Glad to have a brand new one to enjoy in Jerusalem. When more routes are added, may be good for daily commute.
I think you are right. Would have made a good Classic Trains Forum quiz question.
I guess it was kind of a CSX trolley. It did have electric traction motors! I think the former B&O Philly sub (not steak and cheese) has contact with more traction lines than any other US rail line. We cross over Septa's Sharon Hill line at Collingdale, cross route 11 at grade in Darby, cross back under route 11 just before 58th street and then cross under the route 36(?) as we drop down the hill to Eastwick. If one counts Baltimore Terminal sub, we run beside, then under the light rail and cross over the trolley museum! Didn't even count the 4 times we cross Amtrak's wired wonder between DC and Philly.
Does this tram proceed to an estuary?
No, he's talking about the B&O line into Philadelphia; Darby is part of Philadelphia (anyone remember "The Road to Upper Darby?" The trolley line was crossing his track at grade, and maybe lost contact with the wire...
RFP,
You say you were riding on a B&O trolley car?
John WR: Thank you, I did. By the way, last week when I was northbound (B&O eastbound) the dispatcher called and asked if we could stop before MP BAK 4.7. Seems that a trolley car had been reported as stuck on the diamond at Darby! Had no problem getting stopped, but all the trolleys we saw were moving just fine on Septa's route 11. I believe this is the last location in the US where such a message would be relevant.
rfpjohnThe herring I had was covered with some sort of slime.
Well, I hope you enjoy your fruit cake. I agree, each to his own taste.
Overmod Pickled herring -- YES Lutefisk -- NO NO NO
Pickled herring -- YES
Lutefisk -- NO NO NO
You remind me of my childhood, Overmod.
I remember my father carrying home what looked like a wrapped up board but was really lutefisk. My grandmother soaked it in water and lye. Her whole house smelled of it. At Christmas not only did it taste horrible but it smelled so bad I didn't want to eat anything else either.
54LIGHT15: Yes the Electroliners did run on the Pig and Whistle a few,or alot of years back. There's a nice photo in the latest Classic Trains. That Norristown line, plus the Red Arrow lines to Media and Sharon Hill still operate, but with newer equipment. I grew up in the Philly area and can vividly remember the Red Arrow line line to the car barn at Llanarch running down West Chester Pike. Until sometime in the mid60's the Ardmore cars ran that way, too. I can still remember seeing that line being torn out. By the way, the reborn route15 operates with modified PCC's. They look great in the old PTC paint.
John WR: The herring I had was covered with some sort of slime. The young couple we were with said they would not personally eat it, but it was considered a local favorite. To each his own! I'm the only one in this household with a passion for fruitcake!
rfpjohnI do not recommend the pickeled herring.
Pickled herring is common in northern Europe. It goes well with scrambled eggs for breakfast. If you are unfamiliar with it try it in sour cream on rye crisp. It is also good with Schnapps.
You have truely been blessed! Someday I shall return and bask in that Saxon steam! The family we stayed with had grown up in the east. Didn't have any kind words for their auto technology. For now, I'll have to be content with youtube videos of German steam. I found a pretty cool video of an 0-4-0T operating in the streets of Darmstadt. Check it out!
Not to brag, but I have done the entire Harz system twice in the last 8 years along with a bunch of other NG lines in Saxony. What a beautiful part of the world and the railways make it that much better with superb beer to wash it all down! One time on the Harz a guy in a vintage Wartburg station wagon was chasing the train and taking pictures at every road crossing. Nice!
(Wartburg is a 3-cylinder, 2 stroke East German car, about the size of a Ford Falcon)
I'm glad to hear that the Philadelphia streetcars are in good shape and lines are reopening, I was getting a little worried about Philly for a few years, it seemed like the streetcars were going away. Philadelphia has an awesome rail system, all lines taken in to account. I rode the Norristown line about 20 years ago and didn't the Electroliners run there after the North Shore closed down?
Philly still has it's five subway-surface routes which run through the streets of west Philly and the traffic/drivers are pretty agressive and non-yielding. They also reactivated the cross town route 15 in the past few years. I haven't heard any talk of Septa reactivating any additional lines, but I'm pretty sure the 23 route is basically intact. I guess as far as being able to get along in traffic, once streetcars are in place, the general public just sort of gets used to em'. Those Philly cars have pretty impressive acceleration, faster than the local busses I'm sure.
They are coming back in a limited way to cities. We are about to build a short tourist line running from Forest Park to the Loop entertainment area very soon. It's been in the planning for a few years. There is also talk to running one from downtown to some areas. But we also have light rail-Metrolink- so not sure how that will work.
A friend lives in KC and they are about to get one built in their city too.
Of course, New Orleans has had them for years and so has San Francisco, including the cable cars
But I don't see them coming back as a major transporation mover, they can get held up in traffic and can't go around, like a bus can. I can remember riding them as a kid, but they have been gone since mid 1960's.
Didn't get a chance to get to Kuhlungsborn on my trip as they were rebuilding the imaculate roadbed west of Heiligendam and turning trains at that point. We did, however have that new mike as our power. Beautiful little hog! Ran like a swiss watch and clean as a whistle! I also had a ride on the Harz up Brocken, a cab ride courtesy of our generous German friends. I've been in a few steam locomotive cabs in my time. Never seen one as clean as that 2-10-2T! One thing I noticed on both lines was a total lack of cinders. Type of coal, or exhaust arrangement? Maybe someone out there knows.
I rode the Mollibahn a few years ago. The thing that got me besides the obvious were all the people taking pictures of the train from the sidewalk. I wanted to yell, "You people see this every day! What is the big deal?" They couldn't all have been tourists. The best place to have a drink is at the station patio in Kuhlungsborn at the end of the line where you can watch the locomotives come off the front and switch around to the rear of the trains. Also impressive was the overall condition of the equipment and the line itself. The roadbed looks like the Canadian National, perfectly graded and not a weed in sight. Look closely at the lift-up gates at the ends of the coaches. The pivots have new brass bushings, new washers, cotter pins and so forth. Everything is in mint condition. On that same trip we went to the locomotive works at Meiningen and there they were building a brand-new Mikado for the Molli; business must be pretty good!
If you want to talk about REAL street running, visit the Molli in Bad Doberan along the Baltic. My favorite street cars have steam locomotives pullin em' ! You can also visit the littile cafe in the town square and have a tall draft (mixed with Sprite if you desire!) and listen to the little mikados roll through town a block away. I do not recommend the pickeled herring.
One thing that literature would be greatly the better forWould be a more restricted employment by the authors of simile and metaphor.Authors of all races, be they Greeks, Romans, Teutons or Celts,Can't seem just to say that anything is the thing it is but have to go out of their way to say that it is like something else.
-- Ogden Nash
Here is one more of the same stuff:
Frankfurt airport tower staff has a reputation for being quite teutonic. Here is a clip of a conversation between a member of the tower staff and a British Airways pilot, who did not clear the landing strip fast enough:
Tower: BA Flight xxx, don´t you know your parking position?
BA Flight: Well, yes, I look it up in a moment!
Tower: This your first time in Frankfurt? (The BA pilot was a very senior guy).
BA Flight: No, not really. I remember, it was 1945, a different type of Boeing, just to drop off something ....
Bite your tongue, Overmod.
My good friend Stanley promised me that Blanche is absolutely chaste. Just because she rides the street car doesn't mean that she is fooling around. And stop snickering.
DuBois was no more a 'high society lady' than Barbara DuPont.
And we all know what happens when the gentlemen callers are no longer being 'kind' in the right sort of, ahem, way.
I call "Delta Dawn". (And that applies to all too many streetcars' desirability, too... puns intended)
How could I be anything but a gentleman with a high society dam.... I mean lady like Blanche?
John WR I certainly desire that we return to street cars. You have to excuse me now. I have a heavy date with Blanche.
I certainly desire that we return to street cars.
You have to excuse me now. I have a heavy date with Blanche.
Good for you! And be the gentleman, she does rely on the goodness of strangers, don't you know?
Don't want to turn, this from a "Streetcar" thread into a "Hitler" thread, so I'll say this and no more.
Hitler's big hero was Frederick the Great, King of Prussia in the 18th Century and one of the world's great military geniuses. The thing is, if Adolf had read everything about Frederick, and I mean EVERYTHING, and not just the stuff he liked, he wouldn't have caused all the trouble he did and gotten into all the trouble he did. There was more to Frederick than his skill on the battlefield, a lot more.
'Nuff said.
Firelock76And a British Airways pilot cut in at this point, "Because you lost the war, dear boy!"
Well yes. Fortunately for the Allies Hitler decided to get into a two front war and invaded Russia. Had he not done so the outcome could have been different. German could be the language of aviation.
John WR Firelock76I probably could have kept up with it but, well, you know how it is. We're Americans! We don't talk none of them fancy schmancy furrin langwidges. Let them speak our langwidge!
Firelock76I probably could have kept up with it but, well, you know how it is.
We're Americans! We don't talk none of them fancy schmancy furrin langwidges. Let them speak our langwidge!
Reminds me of a story: A Lufhansa pilot was calling the tower in Frankfurt Airport, and he called them speaking German. The tower called back, "Speak English, please. The international language of aviation is English." "But I'm a German pilot, in a German aircraft, at a German airport. WHY must I speak English?"
And a British Airways pilot cut in at this point, "Because you lost the war, dear boy!"
For razzin' the nazzys, go to Youtube and see if you can play Spike Jones and the City Slickers "Der Fuhrer's Face." Also, enter in Youtube, "Germans marching to Lambeth Walk." A British made film that made Josef Goebbels foam at the mouth when he saw it. Hermann Goering had a chuckle at it. What a guy. What Hitler did is not recorded. Who didn't enjoy "Young Frankenstein?" No one I know.
I always enjoyed Young Frankenstein. Just be sure to get off at Transylvania Station.
I think the one who nailed it best was Tom Lehrer in MLF Lullaby:
"We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've scarcely bothered us since then..."
(Song and its context are recommended!)
On various British-run rail trips to east Germany that I've done over the years, one common thing that you hear from the Brits is "Whatever you do, don't mention the war." From Fawlty Towers, I think. I asked a group of people on a tour in Trier about why the track numbering in the station started with track 5, one guy said, "I think the RAF did a little urban renewal." Quiet laughter all round.
John WRWe're Americans! We don't talk none of them fancy schmancy furrin langwidges.
No, we'll just do what we've always done: take the best parts of each 'invading' language and spice up what we have. ;-}
Some (including TR) think that we've kept far too much weird stuff along with the spice. But I say (as a card-carrying honoree of the NCTE... look it up) that even the odd grammatical stuff is fun. (And it keeps the scruffy furriners on their toes!)
Somebody has probably done a version of the Hitler bunker 'meme' regarding the scrapping of the F40PHes... like this:
Hitler and railfanning
but more specific.
The one thing wrong with these is that they leave the original German undisturbed. That should be fixed too. If anyone here remembers the Monty Python supersonic-sheep sendup -- yes, the French seems to be a fairly realistic description of the aerodynamic issues with supersonic sheep. This makes it FAR more funny. (Twain covered this very, very well in his essay on the German language, which I shall not cite in deference to Juniatha's finer sensibilities...)
Hals- und beinbruch,
I'm not gonna say I'm proficient in German but I speak and understand it enough to get by in Germany as far as ordering a train ticket, meal, hotel room and beer is concerned. Especially beer. Funny, one ethnic group in Toronto that's kind of under the radar are Germans. There's one German restaurant in the whole city that I know of and one in Hamilton. There's a large sausage factory with a factory outlet store that' s always busy, but there is no "Germantown" here.
I told Juniatha once I took German in High School but only know enough of it now to get in trouble. I'll tell you, if I watch a movie like "Das Boot" or "Der Untergang" or even "Battle of Britain" I thank God for the subtitles, I can't understand a word the German actors are saying!
I probably could have kept up with it but, well, you know how it is.
Actually I think English is a Germanic dialect.
Yeah, one time in Munich I was at this restaurant. The waiter says, "Vee thank you fur ordering in Cherman, but you did order a deep-fried telephone book, und here it is." I do remember that I ordered it broiled.
If I'm not careful I'll try my college German and embarrass myself.
Nein!
54light15But, back to streetcars, I know that in many cities in Germany you can rent one set up for a rolling party with beer taps, music, a galley kitchen.
I don't guess Toronto is much like Germany.
Firelock76I don't want to dress up like a goofball, I just want some good beer/liquor and food and a good ride. Quite honestly, I think the folks on that streetcar are too old for that stuff, and I'm 59, so I think I'm qualified to critisise. But what the hell, they're having fun.
Everyone in New Orleans enjoys good food and good drink. And everyone, regardless of age, enjoys dressing up for Mardi Gras. Some people spend the entire year making their Mardi Gras costumes.
John WR Firelock76Can we get back to talkin' about something happy, like streetcars? What do you think the new ones should look like? Brills? Jewetts? Or maybe, the ELECTROLINERS! Wayne, I never heard of Electroliners before. At first I thought you wrote Electroliers. But you didn't. I found some sites and some pictures and even a site on restoring Electroliners. For anyone who is interested here it is: http://northshoreline.com/liner.html
Firelock76Can we get back to talkin' about something happy, like streetcars? What do you think the new ones should look like? Brills? Jewetts? Or maybe, the ELECTROLINERS!
I never heard of Electroliners before. At first I thought you wrote Electroliers. But you didn't. I found some sites and some pictures and even a site on restoring Electroliners. For anyone who is interested here it is: http://northshoreline.com/liner.html
The short answer is YES. I won't say more, yet...
No, Men's Rooms are a thing of the past. Here's something else, years ago you could not have a drink in a bar unless you had food. The bar would give you a plate with a stale sandwich on it to keep in front of you in case the liquor inspectors came in. You did not, nor were you expected to eat it as it was only for show. This was back in the 50s and early 60s I am told. I do recall going to a bar, ordering a drink at the bar and attempting to take it to my table. That was not allowed, the waiter had to carry it for you. That was the rule in 1989. My friends say that a typical old-time Ontario bar had no windows (and there are still a few of these but they are dying off) and no actual bar as such, but merely a serving counter. The various legion halls (there are many) still operate this way. About legions, anyone can join whether you served or not (most are not like the American Legion but are smaller, regimental specific) and they are cheap places to drink and in a smaller city such as Kingston, it would be the only place open on Christmas day. Who wouldn't need a drink after the presents for screaming kids, family angst and all the other "love" at the holidays.There used to be a bar east of the downtown that had an old sign above one door that said "ladies entrance," but that's long gone.
But, back to streetcars, I know that in many cities in Germany you can rent one set up for a rolling party with beer taps, music, a galley kitchen. Usually this would be a vintage model restored for this kind of service. The Harz narrow gauge railway has an open car sort of like a gondola with benches and a bar in the middle. Now, that is the way to travel! I know because I've done it. German beer, beautiful scenery and coal smoke!
yes, Firelock, I would not dress like that either, even if it is New Orleans!
54light15John- Men's Rooms? Say what?
In Toronto (I don't know about other Canadian cities) a Men's Room is (or used to be) a bar where only men are served. It is not what Americans would known as a Men's Room.
Paul of Covington Firelock76 Well 54Light, if they ever start renting streetcars for rolling parties in Toronto again let me know and I'll come up for a ride! Oh boy, does that sound like fun or what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BaVNUPv97g&list=FLQ-uhpy3nYTFzaxmpKonFQg&index=7
Firelock76 Well 54Light, if they ever start renting streetcars for rolling parties in Toronto again let me know and I'll come up for a ride! Oh boy, does that sound like fun or what?
Well 54Light, if they ever start renting streetcars for rolling parties in Toronto again let me know and I'll come up for a ride! Oh boy, does that sound like fun or what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BaVNUPv97g&list=FLQ-uhpy3nYTFzaxmpKonFQg&index=7
Interesting video Paul, but I'll tell you what, I don't want to dress up like a goofball, I just want some good beer/liquor and food and a good ride. Quite honestly, I think the folks on that streetcar are too old for that stuff, and I'm 59, so I think I'm qualified to critisise. But what the hell, they're having fun.
John- Men's Rooms? Say what? Dave, you're right as a a few years ago a British group chartered a PCC and toured around town. I met a friend of mine who was with the tour and I got to ride around and see some track that is not normally used in service. I think the TTC has two PCCs available and yes, around ten years ago I saw a Peter Witt car tooling around town. I think that one is kept at the museum in Halton region, the PCCs are kept at the Connaught streetcar yard. I also remember two PCCs on flatbed trucks heading for the States, where, I don't know.
The TTC will be glad to take your money to allow you to charter a streetcar to tour system and host a party. It won't be cheap, but it will be a lot less expensive than attaching your private railroad car to an Amtrak train for an overnight journey. You may even be given the choice of a long articulated car, a regular sized modern car, or a PCC. And if you are willing to pay extra and sign some insurance papers and be willing to pay for any damages, they may even be able to furnish a restored museum-quality 1920's era Peter Witt.
Firelock76fortunately, I suspect a lot of them will feel they've been played for suckers a
They have been played for suckers. Or maybe they haven't been; maybe their leader deeply believes in what he is doing even if he cut a few corners. So lets hope they come to terms with the reality of their own lives.
Does Toronto still have Men's Rooms? John
As far as Brills and Jewetts are concerned, I think they are perfectly good streetcars and it was a mistake to get rid of them. And I continue to believe that many of them were trashed because of GM. But that was a long time ago. If we today build new lines I would get new cars in modern designs.
But the Electroliners look pretty modern to me. John
Electroliners! Yes, a streetcar on which you can order a hamburger and a beer- what' s not to like? I wish I was around when they ran. In Toronto you used to be able to charter a streetcar and travel around the city drinking adult beverages of a refreshing nature. I wonder if that could still be done, I did witness it years ago. Here, we have Broadview station where the Bloor/Danforth subway, several buses and the King and Dundas streetcar lines come together. If this was Germany, there would be a small beer garden at the far end of the streetcar platform. How civilised.
How will these young idealists come to terms with their "leader's" corruption? Well, if they're resiliant, they'll realize he's only one man, and there should me another out there who's worthy of their trust. Hopefully they'll find him or her.
Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of them will feel they've been played for suckers and say "to hell with politics and politicians! I'm going into something else and take care of ME first!" It's a sad old story that seems to re-occur with every generation.
Can we get back to talkin' about something happy, like streetcars? What do you think the new ones should look like? Brills? Jewetts? Or maybe, the ELECTROLINERS!
54light15I was at a party last year at the Ontario legislature, one promoting micro-brewed beer and other local foodstuffs. I was quite taken by all the young aides and staffers, how keen they act and how idealistically they spoke. Going to make a difference! Sooner or later, the brown envelope shows up.
These young people are idealists. Yet Mayor Ford has to be pretty busy defending himself from charges of illegal funding. I did some net surfing and found he escaped being put out of office but he is not out of the woods yet. And the charges will live on to haunt him. I wonder how the young idealists will come to terms with their leader's corruption.
Hi John- No sweat! The mayor's term is supposed to run for another two years but I have a feeling that he will be turfed before that due to campaign financing "irregularities." It always amazes me how when politicians finally accept that fat brown envelope they always think that they won't get caught. "Hey, no ones ever done this before, have they?"
I was at a party last year at the Ontario legislature, one promoting micro-brewed beer and other local foodstuffs. I was quite taken by all the young aides and staffers, how keen they act and how idealistically they spoke. Going to make a difference! Sooner or later, the brown envelope shows up.
Why has Toronto and Ontario fallen so far behind in transit? The biggest employer in the province is the car industry, followed by the concrete industry.
54light15Sorry, John WR but you have it wrong, the mayor of Toronto does not like streetcars, bicycles or pedestrians in that approximate order. He said, "The streets were meant for cars!"
I missed a couple of things and I apologize. Many years ago I lived into Toronto. In those days it was about the most advanced city in North America when it came to public transportation. But nothing lasts forever. I can only hope you soon have a more enlightened mayor.
Best regards, John
Sorry, John WR but you have it wrong, the mayor of Toronto does not like streetcars, bicycles or pedestrians in that approximate order. He said, "The streets were meant for cars!" This shows his clear stupidity since the streets were laid out basically as they are today in the early 1800s. Not a lot of cars around back then.
Schlimm,
Thanks for the update about Toronto. It is true that the line in the middle of the streets do interfere with cars. But I can't see how they interfere with pedestrians and bicyclists. Downtown Toronto is simply not the suburbs.
I agree with you. Anyone who thinks that the private sector is going to build a subway is naïve.
I really don't know how often trains ran along Allens Avenue but I always understood it was a common occurrence. However, they were typically just a few cars being moved to a specific location. Today the P&W is the only freight railroad in Rhode Island.
54light15 John- a plan was in place, financed by the province of Ontario to build 4 new streetcar lines which would mostly be LRVs with some street running. The mayor, Rob Ford comes from the suburbs and does not like streetcars not to mention anything that interferes with the easy movement of automobiles including bicycles and pedestrians. In his view, you are a lesser person if you are not in a car. the first thing he did when he became mayor was cancel the plan (Transit City) for streetcars without the authority for doing so, as under the Toronto system of government, the mayor is only one vote on council, unlike say, Chicago which has a "strong mayor" system. City council went along with it as no one had a spine. Once it was realised that the mayor really didn't have a clue as to what he was doing, council fought him on this and the plan was reinstated. He campaigned on a "stop the gravy train" promise, but that did not include the money pi$$ed away by him when he cancelled Transit City so more money must be spent than originally planned plus this put the plan back by several years. As far as taking out existing streetcar lines, that just isn't going to happen. It was tried thirty years ago and people screamed about it and so we still have them. Another thing he "promised" was more subways and he had the stupid idea that the private sector will build them to under-populated parts of the city which is not going to happen, not in my lifetime.
John- a plan was in place, financed by the province of Ontario to build 4 new streetcar lines which would mostly be LRVs with some street running. The mayor, Rob Ford comes from the suburbs and does not like streetcars not to mention anything that interferes with the easy movement of automobiles including bicycles and pedestrians. In his view, you are a lesser person if you are not in a car. the first thing he did when he became mayor was cancel the plan (Transit City) for streetcars without the authority for doing so, as under the Toronto system of government, the mayor is only one vote on council, unlike say, Chicago which has a "strong mayor" system. City council went along with it as no one had a spine.
Once it was realised that the mayor really didn't have a clue as to what he was doing, council fought him on this and the plan was reinstated. He campaigned on a "stop the gravy train" promise, but that did not include the money pi$$ed away by him when he cancelled Transit City so more money must be spent than originally planned plus this put the plan back by several years. As far as taking out existing streetcar lines, that just isn't going to happen. It was tried thirty years ago and people screamed about it and so we still have them. Another thing he "promised" was more subways and he had the stupid idea that the private sector will build them to under-populated parts of the city which is not going to happen, not in my lifetime.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR daveklepperThere are cases where street runhinbg mixed with traffic is appropriate and many more cases when it is not. Dave, I grew up outside of Providence, Rhode Island. I can recall freight trains running in the street next to cars on Allens Avenue. I'm sure it wasn't common but it did happen. John
daveklepperThere are cases where street runhinbg mixed with traffic is appropriate and many more cases when it is not.
I grew up outside of Providence, Rhode Island. I can recall freight trains running in the street next to cars on Allens Avenue. I'm sure it wasn't common but it did happen.
That is actually going to happen again due to a major scrap metal processor opening a marine loading facility well up Allens Ave.(close to the Powerplant).
I do remember seeing the Providence & Worcester RR running up that street to drop covered hoppers at the road salt terminal. Of course, that was just a locomotive pulling or pushing a couple of cars. I assume the era you are talking about is back when there were many more businesses located on the street with rail service (I didn't move to RI until 1976 but I've heard that there were major produce/grocery distributors in some of those buildings that received many cars on a daily basis)
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Calgary is it. 7th Avenue downtown. Edmonton;s light rail downtown is in a subway. It is really heavy rail using light rail equipment. But Edmonton also has heritage streetcar on the CP's high-level bridge.
About streetcars running down the middle of the street. How about San Francisco? Market St at one point was the last "Main St" that still had a streetcar line. Also the cable car lines up Powell, California and Hyde St.
Rgds IGN
54light15Here in Toronto, the older downtown lines are in the street, ( and out mayor hates them and wants them gone) while Spadina avenue has it's own ROW.
Building a consensus to spend money to put in new streetcar lines is hard enough. I would think getting a consensus to rip up existing lines and replace them would be harder. A lot harder.
Phoebe VetEvery project brings out an army of people who don't want the money spent in today's environment.
No doubt you are right. Objections to government projects that use tax monies are common. I certainly have my own objections. And everybody and his brother has an agenda. But here I was just responding to the article you posted.
John:
Every project brings out an army of people who don't want the money spent in today's environment. Not mentioned in this particular article are the objections of the businesses along Trade Street who are afraid of the loss of business while the road is torn up for the construction. There are also many people who don't like the neighborhoods that will be served by the street car. When the plan was first proposed, the eastern terminus of the line was the Eastland Mall. That mall, however, has since closed.
The state governor mentioned in the article is a former mayor of Charlotte, and of the opposite party from the current mayor. He, in fact, was the Mayor of Charlotte when the street car line was proposed, so it is just politics that he is fighting it now. The line is part of a long term plan:
http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/2030Plan/Pages/default.aspx
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
John WR Dave, According to the article you link to the issue in Charlotte is raising the money to build the line. There is no mention of mixing rubber tired and rail vehicles. I'm not sure of the solution to rubber vs rail but I agree that you raise a valid issue. John
According to the article you link to the issue in Charlotte is raising the money to build the line. There is no mention of mixing rubber tired and rail vehicles. I'm not sure of the solution to rubber vs rail but I agree that you raise a valid issue.
Some of the tracks were already installed during an unrelated upgrade to the road involved. The tracks are in the driving lanes of one of the busiest streets in city center.
The Blue Line light rail extension is also being constructed up the middle of a different very busy road. It will not run in the traffic lane, but it will create 11 more grade level crossings as it passes intersections.
Dave- Calvary? My friends in Calgary will be pleased to hear that! In Munich, for example, the streetcars run in the street with regular traffic and in rights-of-way depending on the area. The clever thing they do is when facing the wrong way on a one-way street, the streetcar ducks into it's own ROW, then back out again, often in the space of a block or two. It's a nice system they have.
Here in Toronto, the older downtown lines are in the street, ( and out mayor hates them and wants them gone) while Spadina avenue has it's own ROW. St Clair avenue was recently put in a ROW, the way it was when the line was built. Local people screamed about both of those projects, but they got over it, both are a lot more pleasant than before the ROW with new business opening and so forth.Sort of like the Embarcadero line in San Francisco
And then there are transitways with exclusive use of lanes by both light-rail-streetcars and buses but no private vehicles. The Seattle Tunnel (with stations), Pittsburgh's Mount Washington Tunnel, Calvary's (or is it Edmonton's?) 7th Avenue are examples.
I guess Providence isn't as unusual as I though. Rail and rubber shares the road in many places.
South Shore, Michigan City, freight trains too.
John WRI grew up outside of Providence, Rhode Island. I can recall freight trains running in the street next to cars on Allens Avenue. I'm sure it wasn't common but it did happen.
Aw, that's nothing. Three little words: "Jack London Square" ... ;-}
Memphis has street running on the Cleveland Stt.Medical Center line, but the stops are only at protected, raised island platforms for the street running there. There is some direct street running on the River Loop in the area adjacent to Central Station. Most of the River Loop is either on the ex-IC ROW or in the Main Street Mall.
PS
In Newark, NJ some streets have been made one way to accommodate bicycle lanes. That could also be done for streetcars. Two streets a block apart could be made one way in opposite directions. Streetcars would get one lane and rubber tired vehicles would get the other lane. Since it would still be possible to drive on the streets people would still have access to driveways.
schlimmModern streetcars run in many German cities, mostly down the street center, without difficulty.
In New Orleans part of the St. Charles Avenue line runs in the middle of the street without problems although most of the line runs down the neutral ground between the lanes of traffic.
henry6the Broad St. extension is along side the streets with island protected platform stops. The River Line has actual street running but is mostly on the former PRR's Camden and Amboy track.
You are absolutely right, Henry. I've been on both. Certainly the ideal is to have a separate right of way for any rail vehicles.
CSSHEGEWISCHStreetcars running in the middle of public roadways as in the past? I find it not too likely.
If you look at the United Streetcare website they show pictures of streetcars running in the street. Beyond that I cannot comment.
Charlotte is building a street car line and it is the cause of a VERY acrimonious debate.
I am a supporter of rail, but I do not believe it should mix with rubber tire traffic in the street.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/debate-over-charlotte-street-car-heating/nWFF4/
Modern streetcars run in many German cities, mostly down the street center, without difficulty.
There are cases where street runhinbg mixed with traffic is appropriate and many more cases when it is not. The dividing line between streetcar and light rail is not firm, neither the dividing line between light rail and heavy rail. The British call the Docklands system "Light Rail" but it is all third rail, high platforms, up to three-car train operation, end doors for security/inspectiors to walk between cars, and highly automated. Their Tyne and Wear Metro is also classed as light rail by LRTA, with the same characteristics, except catenary instead of third rail. Neither has any street running.
Shaker Heights, streetcar or light rail? And shares some tracks with heavy rail!
Today's philosophy is for "light rail" which is a combination of old trolley-street car running and interurban private right of way running. When in streets, light rail is often kept to the side rather than down the middle and stops are at platforms or designated areas and not at every corner as was the old custom. And when and where needed, light rail will get off the street on its own right of way, often along abandoned or little used rail lines. A good example of this would be the NJT Hudson-Bergen Light rail using former Erie, CNJ, NYC and other rights of way, its own new private right of way, as well as weaving along city streets with island stations along the sidewalk side. Newark City subway's original line is all private right of way but the Broad St. extension is along side the streets with island protected platform stops. The River Line has actual street running but is mostly on the former PRR's Camden and Amboy track. All three encompass every type of running...most picturesque, historical, and interesting railfan rides you'll find anywhere.
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Streetcars running in the middle of public roadways as in the past? I find it not too likely. The trend in recent years has been toward light rail, which falls somewhere on the spectrum between streetcars and rapid transit.
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