henry6There was no one in the Southern Tier back then...just beavers and trout! Virtually.
The history I've read is a little different, Henry. I understand there was a lot of farming in the southern tier. The Erie Railroad gave farmers access to the New York City market and made a big difference for them. For example, on item they shipped to New York City was fresh milk, milk that was much more wholesome than the milk before the railroad came along.
John
henry6And our taking on the burden of paying for New Jersey's commute in and out of NYC is one of those dividing points. Even downstate NY'ers is hard for us to swallow.
I don't suggest that New Yorkers would or should take on the burden of paying New Jersey workers commuting expenses, Henry. I don't see any reason for that to happen. Of course I don't know how a tunnel for the No. 7 train would be funded. But if it were funded with bonds based on future revenues from tunnel users then New Jersey commuters would pay the cost to the degree that they commute to New York City on the No. 7 train.
MidlandMike After the Sandy storm serge, half the Amtrak tunnels on each side of Manhattan were flooded, and the other half were able to be put back in service quickly. Maybe ATK would see an advantage to staying with separate single track tunnels in future construction.
After the Sandy storm serge, half the Amtrak tunnels on each side of Manhattan were flooded, and the other half were able to be put back in service quickly. Maybe ATK would see an advantage to staying with separate single track tunnels in future construction.
blue streak 1 The problem that allowed the tunnels to be flooded is the lack of flood gates / flood doors.. Knowing that probably there will be another flood will cause a flood gate to be installed on any new tunnel as soon as any TBM clears that area so the TBM will not get flooded. This begs the question of how soon flood gaes will be installed on the existing tunnels both the Amtrak north and east river tunnels. As well MTA needs flood gates on their subway tunnels
The problem that allowed the tunnels to be flooded is the lack of flood gates / flood doors.. Knowing that probably there will be another flood will cause a flood gate to be installed on any new tunnel as soon as any TBM clears that area so the TBM will not get flooded. This begs the question of how soon flood gaes will be installed on the existing tunnels both the Amtrak north and east river tunnels. As well MTA needs flood gates on their subway tunnels
It sounds like they need more than just flood gates. I heard that the water got in to some of the tunnels (not sure if ATK's) thru unanticipated access points. This makes sense, since the pictures I've seen of both ends of the Hudson tunnels show both of the twin tunnel portals right next to each other and at the same elevation. If that was the entry point of the water, it's hard to see why they both didn't flood.
MidlandMike It sounds like they need more than just flood gates. I heard that the water got in to some of the tunnels (not sure if ATK's) thru unanticipated access points. This makes sense, since the pictures I've seen of both ends of the Hudson tunnels show both of the twin tunnel portals right next to each other and at the same elevation. If that was the entry point of the water, it's hard to see why they both didn't flood.
Sandy was unlike any other storm to ever hit Manhattan Island. Doors or gates on the tunnels would be a waste as the west portals are abut a mile or two inland from the Hudson (but on the Hackensack River flood plane and Meadows swamp) and the east portals are about a half mile from the Hudson. Likewise the east bores to LI are mostly well removed from the water's edge and not facing into a stream flow. It is very rare that such substantial flooding happened and that it will happen again in the near future....but, yes, say your prayers and keep your fingers crossed. There are other projects and safeguards that will help and be more cost effective....
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MidlandMike I heard that the water got in to some of the tunnels (not sure if ATK's) thru unanticipated access points.
Yes, this is so. Subway is not submarine. It is not water tight. Water entering electrical vaults on the street can pour into the subway tunnels.
LION looked at idea of ocean flood gates ala Holland et NOLA. It could be done with one enormous gate at the Narrows Bridge, and one again on the Jersey side of Staten Island and a third across the LI Sound. As outlandish as this sounds they are quite doable, the head lands at these points are quite tall.
Doable but quite meaningless... Close off the Ocean and the Hudson River has no place to go except into the subway tunnels.
The Hudson River is one of the most powerful waterways on the planet, the Hudson Canyon is many times bigger than the Grand Canyon, and unlike the Colorado, it still has a might current.
Bonus Point: What state capital is on the Colorado River.
ROAR
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BroadwayLion ... LION looked at idea of ocean flood gates ala Holland et NOLA. It could be done with one enormous gate at the Narrows Bridge, and one again on the Jersey side of Staten Island and a third across the LI Sound. As outlandish as this sounds they are quite doable, the head lands at these points are quite tall. Doable but quite meaningless... Close off the Ocean and the Hudson River has no place to go except into the subway tunnels. The Hudson River is one of the most powerful waterways on the planet, the Hudson Canyon is many times bigger than the Grand Canyon, and unlike the Colorado, it still has a might current. Bonus Point: What state capital is on the Colorado River. ROAR
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The Hudson River is a sea level estuary as far north as Troy, NY. If the sea gates were closed, water coming from the upper Hudson and Mohawk would spread over the surface of the wide estuary. Further down the Hudson, much of the water from the surrounding hills is caught in reservoirs. The sea gate would only need to be closed for one or two tidal cycles, or about a day. When you speak of the Hudson Canyon, I presume you are talking about the submarine canyon below the waters of the Atlantic,and on the other side of the sea gate. Of course those sea gates would not protect low lying areas along the Atlantic like Rockaway.
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