Did anyone actually answer this:
alloboard I once found a large detailed blueprint map on the internet of the track diagram from Newark to Penn Sta NY in circa 1910. Where can I find this link again?
I, too, would like to find and examine this map. The need to find it seems to have become lost in discussions of where Manhattan Transfer was, what it did, etc. That is all fine, but it does not address the original question... and I think the answer can be provided remarkably quickly by one of the PRR experts here.
While the O'Hare station on the Blue Line serves the airport exclusively with no other transit connections, the Midway station also has multiple connections with various CTA and Pace surface bus routes. Much of the passenger volume at Midway may be from transit connections and daily commuters.
The same is true in Chicago. The Blue Line terminus at O'hare had 3,532,031 passengers in 2012. Midway Airport is served by the Orange Line and that terminal station had passenger volume of 2,833,465 in 2012.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
When the R32's ran a demonstration GCT - Mott Haven service, the Central provided replacement shoes. They did not use the production 3rd rail shoes for the demonstration trip, including the wood or plastic attachment board. I did get to see an offside view of a truck at Mott Haven to satisfy my curiousity.
henry6 Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation? Wouldn't commuter rail or even Amtrak stops more relevant? Would rapid transit better serve other markets?
Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation? Wouldn't commuter rail or even Amtrak stops more relevant? Would rapid transit better serve other markets?
henry6 Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation?
Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation?
Henry6 --- In Atlanta it is very important. The last MARTA figure was 10% of all boardings in Atlanta was at the ATL airport. No other station even close . Maybe Oltmann can give us the latest figures ?
9 Amtrak Monday through Friday trains to Washington and 10 to New York stop at Newark Liberty Airport. All are Northeast Regional trains. All New Jersey Transit trains that pass the station stop. NJT has no special provisions for luggage. Outside the rush hour space is available and I have never seen a problem. During the rush hours I guess it is just crowded.
Of course you have to transfer to the monorail to get to the airport. The transfer is all level and the monorail runs frequently. The service is popular; many people use it. The monorail costs about $5 but that is a lot less than a cab would be.
IN MY OPINION rapid transit is immensely useful to airports.
I very seldom travel on business with large amounts of luggage -- in fact, it's usually one carry-on-size suitcase (not even one of those 'store it up in the front'-sized bags) and a briefcase and laptop.
On the other hand, I have no interest in blowing multiple sawbucks on a Senegalese fellow in a high-dollar hack, or some 'town car' limo service -- let alone an actual waste-of-resources stretch.
Going to LaGuardia, I happily used the subway plus Q10 or whatever, instead of the 'one-seat' bus alternative. Philadelphia is infinitely more easy to use now that it has direct rail.
I don't think very much actually does have to be added to 'transit' cars to make them airport-shuttle-serviceable. You'd use more comfortable seating, and worry less about vandals and urine issues. Adequate room -- perhaps using aircraft-style bins -- to keep your carryon stuff easily accessible to you. Larger luggage is easily handled by having marked locations on the platform corresponding with areas on the train where a luggage area (needs to be little different from what's on interterminal and rental-company shuttle buses0 stands ready -- with only slight actual additional work, you can pre-check with airline, flight. and destination info so the bags wind up at the right security point, or preboarding claim area on security level, within the terminal.
Yes -- if you can arrange larger rolling stock with wider clearances and perhaps more amenities, and your organization has the budget for the necessary capital and infrastructure, 'go large'. Yes, provide an enhanced kind of 'kiss 'n ride' where passengers can be dropped off with luggage without strain. Yes, provide adequate free and secure parking to make it easy to do 'long-term storage' away from the airport environs. But these are all relatively 'no-brainer' solutions for what customers actually want when they use this kind of service.
Much of the key attraction of 'one-seat' is actually more related to the hassle involved with the changes, including actually having to locate and lay hands on luggage you can't keep with you. That applies in particular to any 'transit' setup that actually leaves you short of the right level of your terminal. So a 'train to the plane' that actually drops me off in Howard Beach somewhere is not really an answer, and a train that drops me off at the far end of a long transfer run or clever little automatic tram system is not all that much better... unless the necessaries are thought out properly.
The idea of an Amtrak stop closely integrated enough with an airport to do this... well, I'd sure love to see it. I already make considerable use of hotel 'courtesy vans' to access regional and local rail, say, in Laurel when going through to Bethesda, and while that usually doesn't involve Amtrak, if I need to go up to New York it's not much more work to get to an Amtrak train.
Same point for regional/commuter rail: a close enough 'pass' to actually get to an airport stop is going to be unlikely. Transit size, and transit grade and curve ability, makes fast light rail just as good as 'bigger' trains for most of the logical city-to-airport distances that a 'mass' service of any kind would provide. And there is at least the opportunity to provide many more stops, and by extension 'normal' service between non-airport points, with a transit version.
In Memphis, the logical routing choice for a fast one-seat airport rail system was discarded in the initial scoping process (!) precisely because the 'bang' for the multibillion 'bucks' needed to involve things like 'community service' for the areas the line would run through, and not just provide rocket service for the jet set. Much of this wouldn't apply as strongly to regional-rail-scale alternatives, and would therefore involve either more political will or more disposable local income to undertake at that scale.
The flip side, of course, is that if the trip takes longer than a bus, and requires more stops and starts than a bus, and doesn't come closer to the terminal than a bus... it's really hard to make the argument that spending All That Money is better than running several different classes of efficient bus in the first place...
RME
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
daveklepper Scenario for a PATH train to Florida: PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encourage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
Scenario for a PATH train to Florida:
PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encourage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
Not quite. That would get the PATH consist deadheaded down to Florida... but not with pax aboard.
If PANY&NJ can make Stewart an airport... why not have a joint arrangement with TriMet, kinda like one of those old pen-pal programs where your city 'adopts' something in another city. And hey, we were talking about four-region run-throughs; why limit that excellent idea? Then --
Declared policy is to provide a one-seat ride between PA airports
PA is best off doing that with strictly PA assets, and those need to be FRA compliant...
How convenient that the PATH cars are, in fact, largely FRA compliant.
Now, they go to the Obama government and get funds to put 'special' interiors for inter-airline connections in the airport trains... they were going to do that anyway, but now extra $$$ to license that Chinese girl's approach to optimize utilization of dormition infrastructure via 'deployable overhead rest modules' and optional-mode elastomer-reinforced fabric privacy implementation devices and stuff.
Then get hold of Elon Musk and tell him one answer to his present woes with the Feds would be to make a big, really big version of a 'multimode' BEV, and build SuperCharger stations up and down certain strategic transportation corridors. Then just get hold of some slug/mother connection sets and wire up the TMs for optional external tractive power provision. While we're at it, we can use this as a relatively noncritical live-fire test of PTC as it seems relatively unlikely that over-the-road timekeeping for this, ah, servicing of the taxpayer base (particularly given the known delays in travel via BEV, even with SuperChargers) will be an excessively significant critical-path parameter or whatever.
We could also try using hydrogen fuel cells for power, but that is clearly too futuristic for an eminently practical analysis like this one.
Pity this didn't come up until it's over 2 weeks late.
parked for display, not for riding:
Use Newark Airport and have a subway ride direct to the Financial Center, Department Stores. Fashion Center, Empire State Building, Greenwich Village, Javits Exhibition Center, fine restaurants of all ethnic varieties, and some of the best hotels, all within easy walking distance of our Manhattan PATH subway stations, and all for @2.25.
henry6One seat ride to anywhere you want...no checked baggage...no diner....no sleeping cars....but the price is right and you don't have to change trains...
I've heard that subways are for sleeping. The PATH from Florida to Newark Liberty Airport adds a new dimension. Of course once you get there you don't need the plane if you are going to New York. Just stay on a couple of more stops. And all for $2.25.
One seat ride to anywhere you want...no checked baggage...no diner....no sleeping cars....but the price is right and you don't have to change trains...
Scenereo for a PATH train to Florida:
PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encorage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
OvermodWorry about this as much as you worry about a train dropping through the Hell Gate Bridge when it rises like the Great Pumpkin...
That's why I sit watching the bridge. Amtrak takes no precautions, absolutely no precautions, against the bridge being open. Someday it will be open and I'll be there to flag down the train and save all those lives.
John WR davekleppertwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station. Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train
davekleppertwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station.
Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train
Worry about this as much as you worry about a train dropping through the Hell Gate Bridge when it rises like the Great Pumpkin...
Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train.
Itwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station.
daveklepperIt would be possible to couple a diesel to the PATH cars with an adapter coupler, which are available, and haul them off to Florida if there was a good reason to do so.
You mean I could get on the wrong PATH train and find myself in Florida?
alloboardHow did the R-32's wind up on the Grand Central Terminal tracks?
Through Mott Haven yard.
The cars were coming from Budd in the Philadelphia area. I have not been able to confirm how they actually came to the New York area, whether south(perhaps from a trip across the now-closed bridge route via Maybrook) and then following the New Haven connection to the NY Central, or across the Hudson and perhaps up the East or Harlem river, by 'lighter.' Since the Brightliners ran on the southern part of the BMT initially, I's suspect the South Brooklyn connection from a barge trip for the 'production' deliveries, but the demonstration trip (September 9th, 1964, and covered in the New York Times but I'm too cheap to pay the $3.95 they want for online access to the story) would be different. The trip was specifically intended to prove that 'new' subway equipment could run over regular commuter lines. (Whether the shoes and voltage needed to be adjusted for the trip is for more enthusiastic transit people to discuss)
I also recalled that on National train day a year or two ago, there was an Acela and Amtrak regional trains there too.
Suspect they were towed in, and connected to platform 'shore power' for HVAC and lighting.
How did the R-32's wind up on the Grand Central Terminal tracks? I also recalled that on National train day a year or two ago, there was an Acela and Amtrak regional trains there too .
PATH and railroad on the same track? Not today, but in the classic period, the PRR line between Journal Square and the tower east of Harrison Station regularly saw a mixture of MP-54 PRR trains bound for the PRR Exchange Place station, rush hour K4's for 12-car Bay Head Junction trains, occasional freights, steam and then diesel, three round trips of Lehigh Valley trains for Jersey City, and every six minutes during rush hour of the third rail World Trade Center - Newark PRR-H&M Joint Service Trains.
South Brooklyn freight trains regularl mixed with PCC cars on MacDonald Avenue, with steels and open-gate el cars on the Culver-Line structure overhead, and with steels and D-Type articulates on the West End and Sea Beach lines, the latter with three trolley-wire-equipped freight sidings off the northbound (furtherst north) local track.
When Culver was only on the surface before the 1918 el structure, LIRR steam specials to Coney Island, trolley-pole elevated trains (third rail used from Manhattan to 36th street), open bench and closed streetcars, and an occasional freight train, all shared the double-track line.
It would be possible to couple a diesel to the PATH cars with an adapter coupler, which are available, and haul them off to Florida if there was a good reason to do so. They would have air-braking, but not full dynamic brakes, so speed would have to be limited. Possiblyi make the run down tthe corridor at 2AM. Of course you might be able to do this with a string of subway cars as well.
When the R-32's first arrived I rode a demonstration set from Upper Leverl Grand Central Terminal to a temporary wood platform at Mott Haven Yard.
NewPATH cars have been tested for speed on the LIRR.
I rode the B&O in 1945. The bus used the CNJ Ferry, not the Holland Tunnel. As far as I know, the B&O buses never used the Holland Tunnel except when ferry operations were curtailed by fog or ice. I used, with my Columbia Grammer School 8th-grade classmates, the Columbus Circle B&O bus station.
Doubt the B&O bus could find Jersey stops between the Holland Tunnel and the terminal...train schedules didn't show them except to and from the Terminal and one or two addresses downtown NY. What I think was even more unique about the B&O bus was that it actually was trackside on the platform and not out in the parking lot!
The Susquehanna's Susquehanna Transfer was actually in the middle of a park and ride where mostly Public Service but also other buses ferried to the Port Authority BT . Suzie's ticketing arrangement was through the PS bus.
Interesting story.
I had always wondered why the Q (in bankruptcy and still technically under Erie control) built the station where it was, instead of running through the Palisades Tunnel and then across to a transfer station near the Lincoln Tunnel portals. Aside from the obvious ... the 3.6% grade in the tunnel may have had something to do with it.,,
Isn't this transfer station more or less exactly where the "7 line extension" first stop in New Jersey, and big park 'n ride lot expansion, would be? ...
The B&O bus transfer, as happens, has a rather more interesting history than I'd thought. At one point the buses were ferried across (via CNJ ferry) before they started using the Holland Tunnel after it was finished [presumably this was after they were 'kicked out' of Penn Station in 1926.
Something I had not realized was what the buses did on the Manhattan side for a 'terminus' -- at least some of the buses didn't have one! They ran a loop to New York points including a number of hotels, Columbus Circle and Union Square, and ticket-office points... perhaps making lemonade out of the lack of a fixed station point. I can easily see convenience in being picked up right at my hotel, complete with checked baggage...
Presumably there were stops on the Jersey side, too, but I don't know precisely where they were.
aegrotatioDon't forget the long-forgotten Susquehanna Transfer station, too!!
Susquehanna Transfer station was a circa WWII development by NYSW to allow passengers to transfer to buses going to NYC and later to the Port Authority bus terminal and had nothing to do with PRR/H&M or JC.
Dave, on a recent ride into Newark Penn I noted cat over the PATH track into Harrison station from Secaucus Jct...not sure where it started and not sure it is used...
1. Before the building of Penn Sta Newark, Manhattan Transfer was the only transfer point between PRR trains and the PRR-H&M joint service between Hudson Terminal and the special Park St. Elevated Sta. in Newark.
2. PRR and H&M-PRR joint service trains at one brief time did use the same platforms at Harrison. There is not room for any other platforms at Harrison. PRR trains stopped stopping at Harrison before WWII. However, frieght was on occasion loaded or unloaded on those platforms during WWII. At one time there was caternary as well as third rail. Nosing on the platforms was added after WWII restricting track access only to the PRR-H&M joint service cars, half owned by each.
3. Officially, the line west of Journal Sq. was PRR, not H&M. Now, 100% PATH
I'm old, Overmod, but not quite old enough to remember the Corsair meeting. However, I have read about it in history books.
I think J. P. Morgan saw the competition between the New York Central and Pennsylvania as destructive to both and wanted to put a stop to it.
John WR henry6They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work. As you can see, Henry, when you posted this last December 28 you started me thinking about it. The difference, of course, was that private railroads had no sense of public responsibility. Or am I being too harsh? I would like to see a better reason for these kinds of decisions but that is the best one I can come up with. John
henry6They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
As you can see, Henry, when you posted this last December 28 you started me thinking about it. The difference, of course, was that private railroads had no sense of public responsibility. Or am I being too harsh? I would like to see a better reason for these kinds of decisions but that is the best one I can come up with.
John
I suspect it has something more to do with the New Haven being Mr. Morgan's railroad, and his wanting to have a piece of both the NYC and PRR terminals. Remember the story about the meeting on the Corsair? What gave Mr. Morgan the authority to compel Roberts and Depew (and by extension the Vanderbilts) to stop the (destructive) competition?
[As an aside: it appears the reason the meeting was held on the Corsair is similar to the reason the 'advanced degrees' in Scientology are held on ocean cruises...]
Edited to improve semantics, 4/11.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.