There was no risk Sunday as they were closing down. And the concept of a track crew with chain saws to move a few trees or a back hoe to fill in a washout is a hell of a lot cheaper than rewiring one locomotive or one car ruined by water, salt or fresh. His statements don't compute as being sensible based on the information he was getting and compared to what NYMTA,, MNRR and LIRR were doing in face of the same storm and within 20 miles of MMC! No way could they have lost 250 cars and 65 locomotives by moving them to higher ground not near water courses no matter how many trees and wires fell and how much track was washed out!
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Comissioner James Simpson declined to come before the Assembly Committee to testify. I expressed my opinion in the comment section after the article in the Star-Ledger. If I express my opinion here there will be a risk of having the thread locked for being too political so I will not do so.
John WR Henry, You are correct. No one in government will mention the elephant in the room. There has to be a hidden agenda here but I don't know what it is.
Henry,
You are correct. No one in government will mention the elephant in the room. There has to be a hidden agenda here but I don't know what it is.
New Jersey's first priority is to get the damaged equipment replaced, which will require federal money. Gov Christie is not going to have a show trial, which might make the state look irresponsible, and make the feds think twice about granting the replacement funds. I suspect the gov's office has already done a quiet investigation to answer any questions the feds may ask, and then after the replacement funds are committed, there will be plenty of time for an inquisition.
agree
MidlandMike John WR Henry, You are correct. No one in government will mention the elephant in the room. There has to be a hidden agenda here but I don't know what it is. New Jersey's first priority is to get the damaged equipment replaced, which will require federal money. Gov Christie is not going to have a show trial, which might make the state look irresponsible, and make the feds think twice about granting the replacement funds. I suspect the gov's office has already done a quiet investigation to answer any questions the feds may ask, and then after the replacement funds are committed, there will be plenty of time for an inquisition.
Excellent point, Mike. Politics may be playing the game in the background. Still, the point will be that NJT has not communicated and has not been forthright in addressing the public about how they screwed up.
Wednesday, December 12. My morning Star-Ledger's headline, front page and above the fold, is "Weather Experts Contradict New Jersey Transit Chief." On line the headline is different but the information is the same. There was in fact information about the flooding of NJT's Kearney facility well before the storm. Had NJT bothered to call the weather service there would have been further clarification. No one at NJT bothered. Of course no one from the S-L was called to testify at the Assembly Transportation Committee Hearing. Had either of the writers been there, Mike Frassinelli or Stephen Stirling, the information would have been very different.
Here is the link to the on line Star-Ledger: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/questions_surface_over_nj_tran.html#incart_m-rpt-1
I met my neighbor's brother-in-law this weekend, who is a foreman at NJTransit Rail in Hoboken. According to a rumor circulating throughout the shop, some NJT supervisors tried to get permission on Sunday night to move equipment from Hoboken and the MMC to Port Morris and Waldwick yards. This request was turned down by upper management because of pressuer from the Board to minimze overtime. He couldn't verify if this was true, or just another of the many rumors in the shop.
If true, this could be an explanation for the "duck & cover" approach to communications from NJT. No one wants to admit that they ruined $100 m to save a few thousand $ in overtime.
I don't know how it plays in New Jersey, but the issue of overtime for public employees, including transit workers, can be a major negative factor for the managers of various agencies in Illinois when the press gets wind of it.
sandyhookken I met my neighbor's brother-in-law this weekend, who is a foreman at NJTransit Rail in Hoboken. According to a rumor circulating throughout the shop, some NJT supervisors tried to get permission on Sunday night to move equipment from Hoboken and the MMC to Port Morris and Waldwick yards. This request was turned down by upper management because of pressuer from the Board to minimze overtime. He couldn't verify if this was true, or just another of the many rumors in the shop. If true, this could be an explanation for the "duck & cover" approach to communications from NJT. No one wants to admit that they ruined $100 m to save a few thousand $ in overtime.
This rumor has been passing around for a couple weeks now. The fear of paying overtime is often a management phobia whether public or private enterprise. Like closing down 48 hours for holidays to save overtime pay not to give employee holidays off...then take a whole week with overtime or non service to catch up on the lost time. Pennies wise and pounds foolish...doesn't always make one wise or rich. In NJT's case, first, Sunday's crews could have taken trains to safe havens. Since operations were suspended, then what overtime would there have been to call regular crews from Sunday through Monday to move the equipment? .this overtime argument doesn't make sense and is just verbal camouflage by mismanagers.
You have pointed out that management has failed to communicate with the public. One reason to communicate is to put an end to unfounded rumors such as the rumor that management refused to move equipment to a safe place to avoid paying overtime. Management's silence certainly leaves people wondering if the rumor is unfounded or not.
Will the Star-Ledger's reports prompt any further information? We'll have to wait and see.
John WR Wednesday, December 12. My morning Star-Ledger's headline, front page and above the fold, is "Weather Experts Contradict New Jersey Transit Chief." Here is the link to the on line Star-Ledger: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/questions_surface_over_nj_tran.html#incart_m-rpt-1
Wednesday, December 12. My morning Star-Ledger's headline, front page and above the fold, is "Weather Experts Contradict New Jersey Transit Chief." Here is the link to the on line Star-Ledger: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/questions_surface_over_nj_tran.html#incart_m-rpt-1
activated
In another internet world there is a report that Christie's office has announced full service on the Raritan Valley Line beginning Monday 12/18 and that it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
MNRR website headlines busing on the PJ line around Sloatsburg culvert project 12/14 to 12/17 with bus service details. NJT has a footnote if you click into the advisories section but only says there will be bus service on those dates not explaining why nor what bus schedules will be. Another way NJT's communications with its customers right now is non existent.
henry6 it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
One substation reportedly does supply Hoboken, the other, I believe is further west...again, NJT has never been totally specific as to what happened where just that things happened. Yes, it could mean a way not to provide service. The cover up is general here...we really don't know much because they haven't been specific. The point now that bothers me is the weekend bus service on the Port Jervis line. It is announced and detailed by MNRR but NJT has only given it a line with no details or schedules if you go onto the website then dig into each line's alert reports. Communications again lacking by NJT.
Not on the NJT website last night nor earlier this morning but is now is the details on Port Jervis Line busing this weekend...in is part of the new schedules for 12/17 link.
Thursday, December 13. For those of us who follow the Star-Ledger there is an editorial about Sandy this morning along with new Bus technology. Here is a link:
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/12/nj_transit_screwed_up_badly_on.html
Mike,
This is in response to your point that elected officials do not want to criticize NJT for fear of putting Federal funds to repair NJT equipment at risk. The Star-Ledger is becoming increasingly critical of NJT and as far as I can see does not share that fear.
John
John, the newspaper is just doing their job-- reporting the news, and letting the chips fall where they may.
Sorry Midland, but the Ledger and all other papers and news media in the state and region are not doing their job of reporting. They are taking the handouts and printing or reading them. They are not asking the questions that will reveal and explain the story, the conditions, and who, what, why and whens that have been missing. It has been either a very poor job by the media or a very expert and complete cover up by NJT.
Friday, December 14. Commuters give NJ Transit an earful over storm is the headline of today's Star-Ledger report by Mike Frassinelli. Lack of communication over the delays is the main complaint reported. However, Orin Getz who rides the trains "was perplexed about the decision to leave the trains in Hoboken" and Chairman of the Lackawanna Coalition David Peter Alan was openly critical of NJT's decision to leave equipment in the Kearney yard. Executive Director Jim Weinstein was conciliatory. He explained NJT has learned from this experience and will not make the same mistakes again. In a tribute to Weinstein Chairman of the United Transportation Union stated Weinstein kept union members informed and called him "One of the top people that I've worked with."
Here is the link to the article: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/angry_commuters_blast_nj_trans.html#incart_river
I agree with you; the Star-Ledger is just doing it job in reporting the news. And I also agree that political leaders may be pulling their punches to avoid risking Federal aid. But I still wonder how long our elected officials can avoid the elephant in the room.
This article and a similar coverage in the Morris Record (Morris County, NJ) say about the same thing. One revelation to me was the admission by NJT that diesel locomotion is slower than electric...so lets see what they do about that in the future. Both articles emphasize the poor communications of NJT
Elsewhere I posted
> I have been in the media and worked both the reporting side and the"press relations" side and NJT has failed miserably. The lack of communicationsdoes not appear to be an act of caution but one of confusion and lack ofability. The appearance is that they were floundering from their poor orlack of judgement both at the time of the storm and in preparation time goingback to Nine Eleven for safety and over two decades of higher waters. Theylacked the ability to communicate even if they wanted to. Weinstein saysthey've learned so that they will not repeat the performance "next time".What Christie and the people of NJ should demand right now is that within sixmonths NJT should present a plan to at least provide a back up or full timenew-- command and operations center to MMC somewhere on higher ground andaway from water courses; a plan to move equipment to safety when such astorm presents itself; defined safe locations for the parking and storage ofequipment; plan for personnel to be notified and provided with plans to doemergency work movements, etc. as needed (work with the Unions, not fightwith the unions, to come up with a plan and system...the unions much ratherbe working the day after a storm rather than be sitting at home knowingnothing and doing nothing); and a plan to keep an open communications line withall major media, railroad partners, and governments in the state.
I offer the reports in the Star-Ledger because I subscribe and I read it every morning. However, you bring a much broader perspective to the discussion and I could never compare with your own broader understanding.
I agree with your statement of the facts; furthermore the members of the public who spoke at NJT's board meeting agree. Those who post written comments in the newspaper agree too.
It does look to me like our elected officials have decided that Jim Weinstein has a good to excellent track record and, in light of that, he will be allowed this one storm. After all, Sandy was unique in his and our history. Frankly, I am impressed with Patrick Reilly's statement. He is, after all, a Union Officer. He didn't have to say anything at all. Instead he went out of his way to compliment NJT's chief executive officer.
Is there more to be said? I think so. We ought to watch and monitor NJT's recovery efforts. I look forward to your contribution.
PS. Can anyone dispute that today electric traction is the state of the art provided there is sufficient traffic to justify installation of the overhead wires? I doubt it.
You go several different ways here John....first, its Christmastime, the Holidays, and very soon after Sandy. So not much is going to be done with the administrative part of NJT until whatever has to be done is done: changing command now would not be effective....in fact I think that it hasn't been done is as indicative of the lack of confidence in the management team as anyother conclusion. Even Patrick Reilly knows that and knows he has to work with whoever is there...He is no Quigly out to destroy Mayor "LIndsley". and knows better than to start.
There is a YouTube video taken yesterday of an NJT Dualey (I think) on a flat car in a Union Pacific freight train somewhere in IL. Has anybody at NJT told us what happened and what is happening?
And your PS. Electric traction is one thing, its application is another. Cars and locomotives in commuter service don't appear to be as efficient as Multiple Unit cars...faster acceleration and deceleration, maintain higher speeds easier, better for track capacity. Not purchased in quantity by NJT. Overhead wire provides a good power supply especially for heavier trains...inter city passenger and freight while third rail is more than satisfactory for commuter operatons. NJT inherited the catanary system from basic freight railroad ancestries. State of the art means less than application of the art.
Especially in the New Jersey Assembly, Henry, Chairman John Wisniewski might have recessed the hearing to address other issues after the holidays. He didn't and there is no indication the Transportation Committee will take up the issue again. I see no reason to believe there will be further action by the NJ Legislature.
Patrick Reilly pointed out he will retire in a short time and has no real reason to support or oppose NJT management. Even assuming he is concerned about a continuing labor management relationship he could have just kept quiet and said nothing at all. No one expected him to publically deliver a bouquet to James Weinstein.
My PS point is that other things being equal electric motors are a more efficient from of traction than diesel engines. I believe this is true for both locomotives and multiple units. NJT could choose to run all multiple unit trains on their electric lines. They don't and I don't know what there thinking on the issue is. It would not surprise me though if certain historical issues unrelated to efficiency are involved.
The lack of MU's is legendary. Each motorized car is considered a locomotive and must be inspected and maintained as such and not as a coach. Using locomotive hauled cars allows for the cars to be assigned behind either diesel or electric locomotives making them more universal. The decision, many like me charge, was done without considering the differences between the mostly level Corridor with long stretches between stations as opposed to the short distances between stops on the hills of the Morristown division lines and even to Bay Head and High Bridge.
But don't forget that diesels' engines produce electricity to feed to electric traction motors to make things move. What Americans don't want to do is accept as is or push for a trainset that has a locomotive to produce electric power fed to traction motors on a train of cars.
henry6Each motorized car is considered a locomotive and must be inspected and maintained as such and not as a coach.
What you are saying, Henry, is that the politics involved make multiple units impractical. The decision not to use them has nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with bureaucratic convenience. And of course, the people are denied the benefits of the most efficient rail service.
"But don't forget that diesels' engines produce electricity to feed to electric traction motors to make things move."
Well yes, but now the locomotive must contain diesel engine, a generator and electric traction motors and haul all of that weight around. Not to mention the pollution of a diesel engine. Even if electricity for an electric train is generated using fossil fuel there is still less pollution.
It does seem to me that NJT just went along with the original decisions by private railroad companies. Where they ran electric trains NJT runs electric trains. Where they ran diesels NJT runs diesels.
I wouldn't call it politics by any means...it is rules and regulations defining a locomotive as having controls and motors to propel itself and other vehicles. Therefore it is more closely monitored and maintained. Impractical? Maybe a stretch...but safety is good as is a well maintained machine. Maybe there should be a different standard set to motorize cars here than to locomotives especially with new electronics and technology. Still, too, if a motor car is 90-100% available because of close monitoring the more efficient it should be and less costly to the operators. The decision to go with push pull was economic and, if not for not understanding the needs and differences between different lines, probably a good one. But there are many a good argument why MU's would have been a better choice...mostly in my mind, but there are quite a few others who agree. MU's probably would have been better than BiLevels and high platforms and would possibly be better than reverse signalling and /or a third track from Maplewood to Denville and Dover. So Bi Level Push Pulls to high level platforms is the philosophy chosen.
NJT inherited the PRR electric system from Trenton and Princeton to Sunnyside and the former New York and Long Branch from South Amboy and Matawan to Jersey City, or what was left, from Conrail. It also got the DL&W lines from Dover, Morristown, Gladstone, and Montclair to Hoboken. NJT did extend the Montclair Line electric from Montclair to Great Notch yard, the NY&LB to Long Branch and installed the Kearny connection for Midtown direct services from Morristown and took over Morrisville PA yard. There has been talk of extending the wires from Dover to Port Morris and from Montclair to Denville from time to time, but I think that is over beers or martinis. Bay Head has often been mentioned, too..
John WR Mike, I agree with you; the Star-Ledger is just doing it job in reporting the news. And I also agree that political leaders may be pulling their punches to avoid risking Federal aid. But I still wonder how long our elected officials can avoid the elephant in the room. John
Sometimes it seems that politicians only hold hearings to grandstand their own agenda or bash opposing parties, however, sometimes they hold hearings on matters of heightened public concern. This was the case earlier this week in Trenton:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/183114211_Road_Warrior__How_Sandy_fooled_NJ_Transit_has_to_stick_to_promises_on_storms.html
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