blue streak 1 An obvious question is " will the repaired substations be built ( ? ft ) above the sandy floood level "?.
Streak,
Everything I read says "repair," "replace" and "rebuild." Nowhere do I see the word "improve." It could mean that the MTA and LIRR will have to raise their own money for improvements to the system to guard against damage from future storms.
John
Hope it doesn't add a new nuance to "throwing money down a hole"... ;-}
MTA has been awarded $193M for SANDY repairs.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/rapid-transit/new-york-mta-gets-193-million-in-sandy-aid.html?channel=62
One repair item is a large amount to repair LIRR substations. An obvious question is " will the repaired substations be built ( ? ft ) above the sandy floood level "?. As well will any "A" train substations be built above that line ?
The New Jersey Transit Board of Directors approved $19 million worth of repairs to their equipment at an emergency meeting last night. The repairs are not going well. Executive Director Jim Weinstein reports on the flooded milti level cars it has been necessary to rip up the floors with crowbars to get them out. There is also a time problem; if the repairs are not done by spring mold will begin to grow.
Here is a link to The Star-Ledger report by Mike Frassinelli: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/03/nj_transit_approves_19m_in_eme.html
Overmod,
I think people who stored there trains in a swamp despite the predictions of flooding might also be persuaded to buy the Turbotrain wheels.
John WROne part they especially need is wheels.
Do you suppose the ones from the Turbotrain auction in New York could be adapted? If so, the person who bought them so cheap could probably turn a handy profit... ;-}
All PATH service will be restored this weekend beginning Saturday, March 2. That included weekend service between Exchange Place and World Trade Center. It has been 4 months since the service was knocked out by Sandy until the complete restoration.
The report is in The Jersey Journal: http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2013/02/all_path_service_to_be_restore.html#incart_river_default
narig01It pays to read the book!
As we used to say in the Army, "When all else fails try reading directions."
Overmod OK, some general NORAC rules applicable to the situation involved here. General rule "L" states that employees MUST protect company affairs and property if endangered, and must "unite" to do so. General rule N states that compliance with ordinary operating rules may be superseded '[when] otherwise directed'. but one example is that a combination of Rule 241 and the authority granted under things like 712 or 716(a)(2)(a)(1) [note, this is proof I'm not making this up' who would imagine something as convoluted as that in work product from anything less than a committee or a Government agency] allows equipment, subsequently operated at 'restricted speed' as defined in Rule 80, to approach within nearly any distance of already-parked equipment. 130(a) and (c) cover all necessary protection of the end of the 'previous' train -- likely this would be done by one employee given authority under something like 132(a) rather than by the previous train's crew directly. pursuant to 133 et seq. All that is required for operation of the remaining track is covered in rules like 400 and 401; there are provisions for DCS (the "D" by the way standing for Form D) by issuing a Form D line 2 order to any train running counterflow in 251 territory or observing normal passing procedure for an occupied or a 'work' track by trains in 261 territory. It pays to read the book! (Pity the NJT supervisors didn't think of this earlier! ;-) ) RME
OK, some general NORAC rules applicable to the situation involved here.
General rule "L" states that employees MUST protect company affairs and property if endangered, and must "unite" to do so.
General rule N states that compliance with ordinary operating rules may be superseded '[when] otherwise directed'. but one example is that a combination of Rule 241 and the authority granted under things like 712 or 716(a)(2)(a)(1) [note, this is proof I'm not making this up' who would imagine something as convoluted as that in work product from anything less than a committee or a Government agency] allows equipment, subsequently operated at 'restricted speed' as defined in Rule 80, to approach within nearly any distance of already-parked equipment. 130(a) and (c) cover all necessary protection of the end of the 'previous' train -- likely this would be done by one employee given authority under something like 132(a) rather than by the previous train's crew directly.
pursuant to 133 et seq.
All that is required for operation of the remaining track is covered in rules like 400 and 401; there are provisions for DCS (the "D" by the way standing for Form D) by issuing a Form D line 2 order to any train running counterflow in 251 territory or observing normal passing procedure for an occupied or a 'work' track by trains in 261 territory.
It pays to read the book! (Pity the NJT supervisors didn't think of this earlier! ;-) )
RME
Thx IGN
Sandy,
Thanks for the article. Mike Frassenelli of The Star-Ledger has a similar article today. An additional point he made is that NJT is now short of parts to repair its cars and locomotives because all of the spare parts they had at Kearney were destroyed by the storm. One part they especially need is wheels.
With best regards,
sandyhookken The article states that Transit personnel have raised "Security" as the reason for refusing to provide information.
The article states that Transit personnel have raised "Security" as the reason for refusing to provide information.
The "security" they are talking about is their job security!
The Bergen Record reported today that NJTransit has admitted that the number of coaches and locomotives damaged in Hurricane Sandy are more that had been previously reported.The new figures are 272 coaches and 70 locomotives. The article states that Transit personnel have raised "Security" as the reason for refusing to provide information.
The article is at http://www.northjersey.com/news/transportation/NJ_Transit_Sandy_damage_estimate_up_to_450_million.html?page=all
On weekdays, full service is being provided. Hoboken - 33, Hoboken - WTC, Journal Square - 33, and Newark - WTC. The only shutdown currently is all-day Sat and Sun (and night) when WTC and Grove St, are closed, and also a change of trains required at Journal Sq, with one line running JS-Newark and the other JS-Hoboken-33. Full restoration including weekends is promised by the end of February.
The Asbury Park Press had an article on Tuesday (01/28) which included the following itemization of NJTransit's flood casualties:
261 passenger cars:
84 Bilevels
124 Comet (unpowered coaches)
53 Electric Multiple Unit
62 Locomotives:
9 ALP-45DP (dual-powered)
11 ALP-46 (Electric)
42 assorted diesels
It's not clear from the article what the source of these figures is.
blue streak 1PATH started service today wedensday according to this article.
It's now running from Hoboken to World Trade Center. What is not clear is whether or not you can go directly from Hoboken to 33rd Street or have to change trains.
PATH started service today wedensday according to this article.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/rapid-transit/path-resumes-hoboken-wtc-service.html?channel=62
Last night--Monday, January 28--Hoboken Terminal re-opened. It is heated so commuters can get out of the cold. Benches need to be refurbished and returned and there are no restrooms in the terminal--outside there are port a johns and a train parked on track 8 has restrooms. Work still has to be done but the terminal is open and heated.
henry6ON A COMPLETELY, BUT NOT THAT COMPLETELY, DIFFERENT NOTE; A half dozen NJT Bilevels including at least one cab car were tacked on the hind end of the NS local Sun 1/27/13....saw them leaving the passing siding at Owego,NY at 3:45PM presumably heading to Hornell or Dansville to get the salt washed out and interiors repaired?
Henry, this may deserve its own thread, perhaps in General Discussion.
Are there pictures...
Rules can always be superseded by an authoritative official usually the General Manager or under the authority of the General Manager. When there is a state of Emergency or the railroad or its signals are not otherwise operative, the GM and his subordinates do what has to be done usually with rules suspended and direct permission or directions from the "brass hats".
ON A COMPLETELY, BUT NOT THAT COMPLETELY, DIFFERENT NOTE; A half dozen NJT Bilevels including at least one cab car were tacked on the hind end of the NS local Sun 1/27/13....saw them leaving the passing siding at Owego,NY at 3:45PM presumably heading to Hornell or Dansville to get the salt washed out and interiors repaired?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
General rule "L" states that employees MUST protect company affairs and property if endangered, and must "unite" to do so. (One suspects that this might cover activity by operating personnel otherwise cited as authorities in the rules, even in the absence of 'direction' by higher-ups and politicos who might have been corrupted by ideology or whatever. In practice -- the wisdom of this might be 'somewhat dubious'...) But it is in the book for a reason...
General rule N states that compliance with ordinary operating rules may be superseded '[when] otherwise directed'. So plans like the one oltmannd proposed would be clearly possible within 'timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc.' -- it helps to actually look at the relevant material rather than just alluding to it.
But we also find very detailed ways in which trains can be moved at high density, both to yards and to one (or more) tracks of an available main line, within the NORAC rules as stated. I will not bore everyone with a fully-detailed treatment of how this is done, but one example is that a combination of Rule 241 and the authority granted under things like 712 or 716(a)(2)(a)(1) [note, this is proof I'm not making this up' who would imagine something as convoluted as that in work product from anything less than a committee or a Government agency] allows equipment, subsequently operated at 'restricted speed' as defined in Rule 80, to approach within nearly any distance of already-parked equipment. 130(a) and (c) cover all necessary protection of the end of the 'previous' train -- likely this would be done by one employee given authority under something like 132(a) rather than by the previous train's crew directly.
But wait ... there's more; in the absence of available yard capacity it is perfectly OK under existing rules to take a track out of service between two points and park equipment on it, pursuant to 133 et seq. (I'd recommend keeping 50' spacing with portable derails between trains, and 'safety break' of at least 300' either side of a crossing, and 150' minimum to switch fouling point of main crossovers or sidings, and so forth, if multiple trains were being parked on the 'out-of-service' segment).
All that is required for operation of the remaining track is covered in rules like 400 and 401; there are provisions for DCS (the "D" by the way standing for Form D) by issuing a Form D line 2 order to any train running counterflow in 251 territory or observing normal passing procedure for an occupied or a 'work' track by trains in 261 territory -- so bidirectional service over the line can continue with only minor incumbrance while the track segment in question is being used for temporary emergency storage.
MidlandMike Earlier I used the term terminal zone by which I meant the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I am presuming they may wish to retain a maintenance facility handy to the area, but out of the flood zone ( I have to keep repeating the last part because every time I don't, people seem to assume I would keep the facility in the flood zone.)
Earlier I used the term terminal zone by which I meant the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I am presuming they may wish to retain a maintenance facility handy to the area, but out of the flood zone ( I have to keep repeating the last part because every time I don't, people seem to assume I would keep the facility in the flood zone.)
Recently it was reported that NJT is looking for such an area around New Brunswick although that is not in the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I think the problem may be that there is really no available place near to the Hoboken Division and the Newark Division that is not in a flood zone.
You are right that Denville is kind of far out for Newark Division trains. As would any place on the Port Jervis line be.
What I wonder is whether or not the Kearny yard is a reasonable place for NJT's repair facility or did Sandy make it unsafe for even that. Storing trains during a weather emergency is one thing; repairing them and servicing them is different and that may be possible in Kearney.
John WR MidlandMikeI thought it was obvious we were talking about relocating the facility out of the salt water flood zone but still close to the terminal area. I guess then my question has to be which terminal? There are several. I didn't mean to suggest that Denville was an ideal location for such a facility. However, some trains might have been stored there during Sandy.
MidlandMikeI thought it was obvious we were talking about relocating the facility out of the salt water flood zone but still close to the terminal area.
I guess then my question has to be which terminal? There are several.
I didn't mean to suggest that Denville was an ideal location for such a facility. However, some trains might have been stored there during Sandy.
henry6 oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
Sorry in advance for resurrecting this bit of the conversation, but I have had a chance to actually look over some of the relevant material. See GCOR 1.3.1 and 4.2, for example, if you'd like 'chapter and verse' about what a railroad can and cannot do in case of emergency.
I'm sure NORAC has similar language (although my copy was lost on a corrupted disk and I've only just obtained another). (EDIT: see later post on this subject.]
Since we are talking unoccupied passenger trains being laid up on a section of line where there will be no opposing moves or lack of detailed information, and where there is probably working PTC still, I don't see where a safety issue that trumps emergency permission would exist. By the rules and procedures, that is...
After many many weeks New Jersey Transit announced yesterday that Hoboken Terminal will be open and heat will be provided on Tuesday, January 29. This last week especially has been hard on commuters with morning temperatures in the single digits.
Here is a link to the NJT announcement: http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=PressReleaseTo&PRESS_RELEASE_ID=2834
John WR MidlandMikeDenville is handy to that suburban end of line whereas the meadows is handy to the terminal zone. Would it be useful to retain a facility for normal terminal zone operations? Mike, Excuse me if I'm being obnoxious. But is it useful to have salt water flood locomotives and cars?
MidlandMikeDenville is handy to that suburban end of line whereas the meadows is handy to the terminal zone. Would it be useful to retain a facility for normal terminal zone operations?
Mike,
Excuse me if I'm being obnoxious. But is it useful to have salt water flood locomotives and cars?
If you had read the entire post you would have seen it began with:
sandyhookken("Frosty in Hoboken"
Here is a link to this unsigned editorial. Here are editorial demands that the complete lack of any heating for transit riders be fixed now. After all, we are having temperatures in the single digits in the early morning when a lot of commuters pass through the station. If you come in on a train and must wait 20 or 30 minutes for a bus there is a real danger of frostbite. Does anyone at NJT care?
sandyhookkenThe link to the Bergen Record is www.northjersey.com. For reasons unknown to me, I cannot insert any links directly to newspaper articles into any of my documents.
Every commuter in this state should read Doblin: To New Jersey Transit a toilet is an amenity. Here is a link that I think will work if you cut and paste it: http://www.northjersey.com/columnists/doblin/doblin_012513.html?c=y&page=2
The Record is a fairly widely read newspaper in this state. I'm surprised that New Jersey Transit are so quick to dismiss an editorial writer who has a regular column in that paper. One thing is clear. New Jersey Transit has taken a regular commuter who rides their trains and made him into an enemy.
Dear Gov Christie -- Please give your self this advice and require NJT to do the same thing ---
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Christie_NJ_adopting_feds_advisory_flood_maps.html
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