This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe.
BaltACD; absolutely correct. IMHO the lessons of Irene were lost on the various rail agencies in one way or another. What seems to be lost on so many people is the bands of heavy rain and winds. You can have 2 identical hurricanes ( of course would never happen ) and places that destruction happened with one at a certain location might not necessarily happen with the next.
That includes wind gusts, tornados, tidal surges, etc. But to build or store equipment including rolling stock in any 500 year flood plain is just criminal.
RAND !!!! Right, thank you...Walter Rand Transportation Center.
I've heard now that although equipment was removed from Hoboken some was taken to Meadows facilities where 65 locomotives and up to 257 cars were lost...those are the numbers from non NJT sources.
Yes, See an earlier post of mine noting Denville as a DL&W back up spot for dispatching. So you'd think that after Irene and after the Nine Eleven attack a back up location would have been developed. Why not? Wonder if there is a firm answer. For NJT I would nominate Port Morris NJ as the summit of the system, all water courses in all directions flow down from there and there are no peaks above the railroad except the hill on the east side where an installation should be located.
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henry6 I've heard now that although equipment was removed from Hoboken some was taken to Meadows facilities where 65 locomotives and up to 257 cars were lost...those are the numbers from non NJT sources.
Henry; this report comes from CNN and was picked up by Trains newswire which reported the CNN new source. However NJ TRANSIT has not released any information so am somewhat skeptical. It may be that NJT is evaluating the equipment to lower the final figure.
if exposed to salt water -- unit life will be extremely limited
1. 65 locos at $4M = $250M ?
2. 257 cars at $2 - 2.5M = $600M ?
If these units are destroyed everyone from the decision maker up to and including the CEO of NJT should be fired. Do you know where there is a corporate structure diagram ?
Worse than the report are the hundred or so pictures that NJT has up on their website NJTransit.com. I was led to believe equipment was moved out of Hoboken, but the pictures show cars and locomotives there as the water receded...another pic of cars (and insinuating locomotives) in Bay Head. MNRR/NJT did reportedly move trains west on the Southern Tier line from Suffern and or east from Port Jervis for safety at the Ottisville and Campbell Hall sidings...I saw a picture of one trainset at Otisville on the Meddletown Times newspaper website. Pics show diesel locomotives but there must be electric and the dual modes, too, especially in the Meadows complex. And the cars ain't the steam heat buggies of yesteryear but modern HEP cars with train control lines, too. NJT certainly can not go to the tourist lines an bring back the coaches they sold or gave away years ago.
I'm a railfan,not a railroader, but it does seem to me, as it does to you Blue Streak, and I am sure to others, too, that keeping equipment in such vulnerable locations as Bay Head, Hoboken, and Meadows, along the NJCL with all the long range warning they received, with the warning of how devastating the storm could be, was not the wisest decision. Couple that with the increasing flooding experiences over the years, last year's Lee and Irene one two punch, and the scary episode of 9/11/01 that leaving the toys laying on the living room floor was not very smart. And further, as I mentioned earlier, the need for either a less vulnerable site for a permanent or back up site for operations also should have been explored if not put into service. I suggested Port Morris, NJ because it is, I believe, the highest point on NJT in NJ at about 900 feet (yes, the Southern Tier line between Moodna Viaduct and Otisville are higher but that's in NY).
Update for MNRR: they will be operating from Mt. Kisco to GCT on the Harlem line and from Stamford to GCT on the New Haven line tomorrow. All other MNRR lines will not be operating, "check with NJT for MNRR services to Port Jervis and Spring Valley". The LIRR reports it is operating from Atlantic Ave Brooklyn where there will be bus connctions to Manhattan, to Jamaica...but doesn't make clear how you get to Jamaica from the East..at lest not yet... Amtrak's website shows service from Newark south and west but very restricted with the Crescent only to and from D.C. and other restricted schedules. Nothing on the Corridor between Newark, NJ and Boston nor south of Albany with Lake Shore going to Boston only. SEPTA seems to be up and running although with delays and some train cancellations.
All have their own websites with updated information faster than I can get it to you.
Right now Amtrak says it will restore some service between Boxton and New Haven tomorrow, Nov. 1. The only missing link between Boston and New York will be below New Haven.
However, there is still the North River Tunnel to deal with.
North and East River tunnels are still flooded...so Amtrak can only come west as far as New Rochelle when it can get clearance from New Haven to New Rochelle...could it go into GCT? If MNRR can spare the dual diesels, which it might because it can't run the Hudson line and isn't going to Wassaic, Danbury or Waterbury yet, either.
LIRR is scheduling trains from Jamaica to Penn Sta hourly at this time. Thurs, they will also add trains from Great Neck to Penn on the Port Washington line and to and from Ronkonkoma on hourly basis.
henry6 North and East River tunnels are still flooded...so Amtrak can only come west as far as New Rochelle when it can get clearance from New Haven to New Rochelle...could it go into GCT? If MNRR can spare the dual diesels, which it might because it can't run the Hudson line and isn't going to Wassaic, Danbury or Waterbury yet, either.
Is MNRR operating the lines electrically, or are they already substituting dual-power units.
PS: Henry, upon further reading in another post, I see you guessed it was diesel. Thanks.
blue streak 1 BaltACD This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe. BaltACD; absolutely correct. IMHO the lessons of Irene were lost on the various rail agencies in one way or another. What seems to be lost on so many people is the bands of heavy rain and winds. You can have 2 identical hurricanes ( of course would never happen ) and places that destruction happened with one at a certain location might not necessarily happen with the next. That includes wind gusts, tornados, tidal surges, etc. But to build or store equipment including rolling stock in any 500 year flood plain is just criminal.
When the rail managers go to the person who controls the money, and say they need to move the yard out of an area that potentially floods every 500 years... and that is as far as the money man listens. It does not matter whether he is a state treasurer or a CEO. They all have limited budgets, and they all think they will be gone before a 100 year flood, much less a 500 year flood.
MidlandMike Is MNRR operating the lines electrically, or are they already substituting dual-power units.
saw on one of the networks showing what was claimed was the first Harlem line train and they showed an EMU. However one has to wonder if it was file footage ???
I have just heard that PATH has actually restored service on all lines. They were giving a false report on their website, but now it is real . This means that NY-Washington rail travel is possible by changing between Amtrak and PATH in Newark.
LIRR is running Ronkonkama - Penn Sta. via Jamcaica, Great Neck - Penn., and Jamaica - Brooklyn
I do not understand why NJT is not running Trenton - Newark since Amtrak is running over that route now.
NJT River Line Camden - Trenton is running
The New York subway system smartly moved its equipment out of low elevation yards onto elevated structure tracks and has restored service on most lines except from the Herald Square - Times Sq. - Grand Central area south to the vicinity of Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn. Tunnels between Manhattan and Bronx and the 60th Street and 53rd Street tunnels between Manhattan and Queens appear in use but none of the Manhattan - Brooklyn tunnels nor the Manhattan and Wiliiamsburg Bridges appear to have trains on them at the present time. Express bus shuttles are in use. The two routes in service normally running to Coney Island (Sea Beach and Brighton are not running). the D and F, stop short of going into Coney Island.
Things are changing rapidly this morning but have not checked the websites as yet. About a third of the NYC subway lines were supposed to start operating this morning. MNRR's apparently running with power rather than dual diesels but again haven't checked. LIRR started Jamaica to PENN last night with electricity as they did with Atlantic Ave service but don't know about Ronknonkoma; Great Neck would be electric, too. Evidenlty at least one of the East River tunnels is open as was reported by Amtrak late yesterday. Despite saying Amtrak was running to Newark their posted schedule did not show such service. Again, I've not checked sites this morning yet.
As for NJT. They've put up about 50 or so slides of Hoboken and the NJCL bridges and washouts but have otherwise been tight lipped and unspecific for the railroad in general...The reported loss of 65 locomotives and 257 cars, the command center with computers, back up power, and generators gone, have given them cuncusions and they don't know what hit them. Very unlike a usually savvy operation.
Penn Station was never completely cut off. Two of the four East river tunnels flooded, and one of the Hudson tunnels took on water. The other Hudson tunnel is probably necessary to get men and equipment from one end to the other to work on clearing the one with water in it. I'm guessing Sunnyside needs a bit of cleaning and care before it's ready to handle a large load.
Amtrak set up service restoration based on a few important principles:
1. Don't get in the way of ongoing repairs (see tunnel use, above)
2. Run trains where they can be serviced - hence LD trains turning at DC , Philly and Albany. Even Newark is a bit of a stretch, but at least they can run around the train there if not turn it.
3. Give your partners time to sort things out. The MNRR outages on the New Haven line are the block to restoring service to Penn from the east, not the East/North tunnels, though a full service restoration is certainly going to be possible without the two wet tunnels, especially if LIRR is running trains, too.
4. Don't compromise safety. The biggest problem is making sure the signal system, including the switch motors at Penn, and other safety systems are intact - a lot of this has to do with commercial power being available and stable. Right now a P32/amfleet trip down the Hudson to Penn is probably possible - at 15-20 MPH.
Until commercial power is fully restored to midtown and lower Manhattan, there aren't a lot of reasons to go there, anyway.
rcdrye 2. Run trains where they can be serviced - hence LD trains turning at DC , Philly and Albany. Even Newark is a bit of a stretch, but at least they can run around the train there if not turn it.
Amtrak is using Acela trainsets to run the NEC Regional service right now. That is why there is no Acela service, and it eliminates the need to turn or run around at Newark.
Actually both Hudson River bores and all four East River bores were flooded. Late yesterday one of the East River bores was cleared and last night it appears at least one other was....LIRR running from NYP to Great Neck on the Port Washington Branch and to Jamaica and Ronkonkoma on the main...Also from Brooklyn's Barcley/Atlantic Ave to Jamaica. MNRR is operating from Mt. Kisco to GCT on the Harlem line and from Stamford on the New Haven Line. BTW: Gov. Cuomo has ordered all mass transit not to collect fares, this includes buses, subways, and MNRR and LIRR in order to encourage use of mas transit rather than clog the roads. NJT is running the River Line Camden to Trenton but has been strangely quiet about its operations elsewhere except for the pics posted on its website...MTA also has about 100 pics of MNRR, LIRR, and subways. SEPTA seems to be operating as best possible with delays in places, mostly blamed on slippery rail due to leaves and rain. As for Amtrak, the Hudson line is out of service due to washouts, especially reported south of Poughkeepsie by MNRR. I've not looked at a CONDOT website to ascertain Stamford to New Haven but Amtrak reports problems between Springfield and New Haven and no service offered. As for service to Newark, I don't know...SEPTA is running to Trenton but nobody is saying anything beyond there. Could be the lack of commercial power for the cat and signal, or if not lack, the unreliability at the moment.
Noon, Thursday Nov. 1. As of 5 minutes ago there is no NJT rail service anywhere with the exception of the Riverline between Trenton and Camden. There is also no service on the Metro North trains NJT operates to Port Jervis or on the Pascack Valley line.
Extensive damage is reported to the Newark Light Rail and the Hudson Bergen Light Rail. The Newark station, located in Newark Penn Station, is 2 full flights of stairs below ground level while all other Newark rail lines are elevated and well about ground level in the station.
Since Amtrak is running south of Newark at least the 2 center lines must be open. However, in at least one previous emergency (when I was commuting in NJT to Trenton) Amtrak refused to allow NJT to use the center tracks or to honor NJT tickets between Newark and Trenton. I can only hope this attitude has changed.
Most NJT (but not all) local bus lines are operating with some making detours. I don't know about bus service between New Jersey and Manhattan.
Again, PATH is in operation. Apparently they learned from World Trade Center September 2001 the value of closing water access to tunnels and prepared for the storm in ways that others did not. I always felt they were the most heads-up operaton in the New York area . (After all, they did hire me to do a sound-system acoustics survey in 1995. Does that make me prejudiced?) With subways out between Herald Square and Grand Central and Brooklyn, I wonder how many people in Manhattan are thinking of takiing uptown (Herald Square) PAT to New Jersey, Hoboken, Pavonia, or Grove Street, and then going back under the Hudson to World Trade Center? On one fare. It is certainly now the best way to get into Manhattan from Amtrak's trains to Newark.
The official PATH site: www.panynj.gov/alerts-advisories/inclement-weather.html on the PATH tab
PATH
November 1, 2012
8:00 a.m.
PATH service is suspended until further notice.
MTA/MN site says "Hudson Line service will remain suspended due to extensive storm damage." The line is build close to river level in many spots. It was disheartening to see the coaches up to their sills in tidal water at Croton-Harmon. For a while it became the Under-water Level Route. I wonder if things on that line are as bad as things at NJT?
Scott Pelly of CBS news did an interview with Gov. Cuomo in the being rebuilt WTC PATH station, the track level was clearly flooded, though the platforms were wet but not flooded.
Excellent Flickr slideshow by New Jersey Transit showing the damage to their lines and equipment.
NJT Slideshow
beaulieu Excellent Flickr slideshow by New Jersey Transit showing the damage to their lines and equipment. NJT Slideshow
The track and right of way damage are in line with what I would have expected from the flooding the storm caused and is not really that severe. I suspect power switch machines and other signal gear will need to be ordered by the gross. The flooding and water damage to equipment at the maintenance facilities will be a real killer in getting the system back in operation in the near term.
In NYC they are saying that the subways and LIRR flooding problems are compounded by salt rather than fresh water...so, yeah, NJCL, Hoboken, and Meadows are all in salt water areas, not fresh water, so there certainly will be a lot of new stuff ordered...
Amtrak now says it is going to run Acelas Boston to D.C. on Friday in addition to the earlier announced services: tonight's Regional Experss and a Keystone train in and out of NYP as at least one of the Hudson tunnels is opened...a Miami train is supposed to make it in and out on Fri. But the Hudson Line's washouts, etc. keep Albany service closed.
As was hoped NJT has announced limited service to Newark Penn from Trenton on the Corridor and from Woodbridge ont the NCL and from Raritan on the RVL. but no services on Hoboken Division Morristown Line, Gladstone Branch, Montclair/Boonton Line, Pascack Valley Line nor Main/Bergan Line to Suffern and Port Jervis. They have quietly posted on their website but have not elaborated on conditions on the non service lines beyond the general statement of power outages, washouts, and downed trees. Nor has their website mentioned the position of the 65 locomotives and 257 cars caught in salt water flooded yards whose return to service is doubtful. I wonder what equipment is out there that can be "borrowed"? SEPTA is phazing out their Arrow cars which would be ok on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NJCL...but HEP locomotives and push pull cars, they'll be hard to find. Nor is there much "heritage" equipment with steam heat available either.
It appears that NJ TRANSIT will operate FRIDAY all lines that pass thru Newark except the north jersey line. However all lines are terminating at Newark and not going to NYP. Wonder if they have no motors that operate ?
With AMTRAK operating a modified scheduled to / from NYP bet AMTRAK will be jamed Newark - NYP ?
As of 2015 MNRR is not operating the New Haven line Friday so maybe AMTRAK will take many delays NYP - NHN?.
Across the river, less than 2/3rds of the subway system is running...Lines from the Bronx and northern Queens are terminating as far south as 34th St. or Herald Sq. with the 42nd St Shuttle operating but not the 7 and E trains M trains are running in Brooklyn/Queens with J train to Hewes Ave. for bus transfer and the M train is running from Herald Sq to Jamaica via the E train route; 7 train expected to run in Queens only tomorrow. In Brooklyn there is no service on the G, F and N trains but there others are operating ending at Atlantic/Pacific Avenue or Jay St. for bus transfer to Manhatten.: the A train to Ozone Pk Lefferts Blvd, and the L train from Broadway Jct. to Rockaway Park only.
LIRR is adding Babylon and Huntington trains to Jamaica and Penn Station on Friday and MNRR's is running the Harlem Line to Southeast but not to Wassaic; the NH service will remain to Stamford as of this moment but might be able to go to New Haven (Amtrak plans on running Friday). Hudson line is still closed. SEPTA is operating with delays.
blue streak 1 It appears that NJ TRANSIT will operate FRIDAY all lines that pass thru Newark except the north jersey line. However all lines are terminating at Newark and not going to NYP. Wonder if they have no motors that operate ? With AMTRAK operating a modified scheduled to / from NYP bet AMTRAK will be jamed Newark - NYP ? As of 2015 MNRR is not operating the New Haven line Friday so maybe AMTRAK will take many delays NYP - NHN?.
It may be that NYP is not up to snuff with LIRR and AMtrak.. No one has mentioned anything about Sunnyside Yard...it kinda sits in a bowl below street level and may not be available for yarding...so both LIRR and Amtrak may need NYP for yard services (no mention of LIRR West Side Yard except for pics of flood waters on Tuesday). Some of NJT's trains have to turn or lay up at Sunnyside so NJT is not gonna get in the way...NJT's got equipment problems, too, but they've not addressed them publicly: how many diesels, how many electric, how many duel mode locomotives available for service? How many MU cars? How many push pull cars? How many push pull cab cars? We don't know for sure, and I fear they really aren't sure either. Corridor and Woodbridge trains can be easily handled with 6 to 10 trainsets. and the Raritan Valley with maybe 4 or 5 trainsets based on the proposed schedules...
Henry; It would take about 5 of you to cover this storys completely. Newark Penn, 2- NYP, GCT, JAMACIA station. wish I could help you.
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