blue streak 1 BaltACD This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe. BaltACD; absolutely correct. IMHO the lessons of Irene were lost on the various rail agencies in one way or another. What seems to be lost on so many people is the bands of heavy rain and winds. You can have 2 identical hurricanes ( of course would never happen ) and places that destruction happened with one at a certain location might not necessarily happen with the next. That includes wind gusts, tornados, tidal surges, etc. But to build or store equipment including rolling stock in any 500 year flood plain is just criminal.
BaltACD This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe.
This isn't met to be a excuse for any of the failures, however, flooding occured in places that had never experienced flooding before. So, heretofore SAFE places were no longer safe.
BaltACD; absolutely correct. IMHO the lessons of Irene were lost on the various rail agencies in one way or another. What seems to be lost on so many people is the bands of heavy rain and winds. You can have 2 identical hurricanes ( of course would never happen ) and places that destruction happened with one at a certain location might not necessarily happen with the next.
That includes wind gusts, tornados, tidal surges, etc. But to build or store equipment including rolling stock in any 500 year flood plain is just criminal.
When the rail managers go to the person who controls the money, and say they need to move the yard out of an area that potentially floods every 500 years... and that is as far as the money man listens. It does not matter whether he is a state treasurer or a CEO. They all have limited budgets, and they all think they will be gone before a 100 year flood, much less a 500 year flood.
henry6 North and East River tunnels are still flooded...so Amtrak can only come west as far as New Rochelle when it can get clearance from New Haven to New Rochelle...could it go into GCT? If MNRR can spare the dual diesels, which it might because it can't run the Hudson line and isn't going to Wassaic, Danbury or Waterbury yet, either.
North and East River tunnels are still flooded...so Amtrak can only come west as far as New Rochelle when it can get clearance from New Haven to New Rochelle...could it go into GCT? If MNRR can spare the dual diesels, which it might because it can't run the Hudson line and isn't going to Wassaic, Danbury or Waterbury yet, either.
Is MNRR operating the lines electrically, or are they already substituting dual-power units.
PS: Henry, upon further reading in another post, I see you guessed it was diesel. Thanks.
LIRR is scheduling trains from Jamaica to Penn Sta hourly at this time. Thurs, they will also add trains from Great Neck to Penn on the Port Washington line and to and from Ronkonkoma on hourly basis.
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Right now Amtrak says it will restore some service between Boxton and New Haven tomorrow, Nov. 1. The only missing link between Boston and New York will be below New Haven.
However, there is still the North River Tunnel to deal with.
Update for MNRR: they will be operating from Mt. Kisco to GCT on the Harlem line and from Stamford to GCT on the New Haven line tomorrow. All other MNRR lines will not be operating, "check with NJT for MNRR services to Port Jervis and Spring Valley". The LIRR reports it is operating from Atlantic Ave Brooklyn where there will be bus connctions to Manhattan, to Jamaica...but doesn't make clear how you get to Jamaica from the East..at lest not yet... Amtrak's website shows service from Newark south and west but very restricted with the Crescent only to and from D.C. and other restricted schedules. Nothing on the Corridor between Newark, NJ and Boston nor south of Albany with Lake Shore going to Boston only. SEPTA seems to be up and running although with delays and some train cancellations.
All have their own websites with updated information faster than I can get it to you.
Worse than the report are the hundred or so pictures that NJT has up on their website NJTransit.com. I was led to believe equipment was moved out of Hoboken, but the pictures show cars and locomotives there as the water receded...another pic of cars (and insinuating locomotives) in Bay Head. MNRR/NJT did reportedly move trains west on the Southern Tier line from Suffern and or east from Port Jervis for safety at the Ottisville and Campbell Hall sidings...I saw a picture of one trainset at Otisville on the Meddletown Times newspaper website. Pics show diesel locomotives but there must be electric and the dual modes, too, especially in the Meadows complex. And the cars ain't the steam heat buggies of yesteryear but modern HEP cars with train control lines, too. NJT certainly can not go to the tourist lines an bring back the coaches they sold or gave away years ago.
I'm a railfan,not a railroader, but it does seem to me, as it does to you Blue Streak, and I am sure to others, too, that keeping equipment in such vulnerable locations as Bay Head, Hoboken, and Meadows, along the NJCL with all the long range warning they received, with the warning of how devastating the storm could be, was not the wisest decision. Couple that with the increasing flooding experiences over the years, last year's Lee and Irene one two punch, and the scary episode of 9/11/01 that leaving the toys laying on the living room floor was not very smart. And further, as I mentioned earlier, the need for either a less vulnerable site for a permanent or back up site for operations also should have been explored if not put into service. I suggested Port Morris, NJ because it is, I believe, the highest point on NJT in NJ at about 900 feet (yes, the Southern Tier line between Moodna Viaduct and Otisville are higher but that's in NY).
henry6 I've heard now that although equipment was removed from Hoboken some was taken to Meadows facilities where 65 locomotives and up to 257 cars were lost...those are the numbers from non NJT sources.
I've heard now that although equipment was removed from Hoboken some was taken to Meadows facilities where 65 locomotives and up to 257 cars were lost...those are the numbers from non NJT sources.
Henry; this report comes from CNN and was picked up by Trains newswire which reported the CNN new source. However NJ TRANSIT has not released any information so am somewhat skeptical. It may be that NJT is evaluating the equipment to lower the final figure.
if exposed to salt water -- unit life will be extremely limited
1. 65 locos at $4M = $250M ?
2. 257 cars at $2 - 2.5M = $600M ?
If these units are destroyed everyone from the decision maker up to and including the CEO of NJT should be fired. Do you know where there is a corporate structure diagram ?
RAND !!!! Right, thank you...Walter Rand Transportation Center.
Yes, See an earlier post of mine noting Denville as a DL&W back up spot for dispatching. So you'd think that after Irene and after the Nine Eleven attack a back up location would have been developed. Why not? Wonder if there is a firm answer. For NJT I would nominate Port Morris NJ as the summit of the system, all water courses in all directions flow down from there and there are no peaks above the railroad except the hill on the east side where an installation should be located.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
from Internation rail journal
""The situation is somewhat grimmer on NJT. The entire regional/commuter rail and LRT service will remain suspended until further notice and there is currently no estimated time for service resumption due to widespread damage to critical infrastructure. NJT's rail operations centre is engulfed in water, which has damaged backup power supply systems, the emergency generator, and the computer system that controls train movements and power supply to catenary. There are numerous fallen trees which have damaged catenary and signalling cables, and there are track washouts across the network.""
This is indeed grim. with no control of cat, signals, emergency generator,computer system it may be weeks to set up manual control ??
henry6...Walter Reade Transportation Center...
...Walter Rand Transportation Center...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd Heard that NJT lost 65 locomotives to the flood.... That's a lot.
Heard that NJT lost 65 locomotives to the flood.... That's a lot.
...and a couple hundred coaches.
NJT still has not reported specifics beyond what is found on their website as linked above. The River Line is operating from Walter Reade Transportation Center to Trenton and Camden area bus services have resumed. But no other NJT or NJT-MNRR services have not been further addressed.
MNRR has announced that North White Plains to GCT will begin on the Harlem Line with hourly service starting at 2PM,
I will tout the Middletown (NY) Times Herald as having a great website and excellent coverage of the area above the NY/NJ border and better than any news media anyplace I've seen in the country...and I've been in the media for almost 50 years...they beat the NYTimes, all TV and Radio stations and mass owned media.
Henry here is a report
http://www.njtransit.com/sa/sa_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=CustomerNoticeTo&NoticeId=2299
If reports that the operations center was flooded then all NJ residents need to have the head of the architect / engineer who built it in a potential flood area. The other thing is unconfirmed reports of major rolloing stock flood damage is true then ........................ ??
Just checked around the media and agencies in the NY area, and nothing more, nothing new as yet. Even the Middletown NY Times Herald had nothing to report on MNRR.NJT conditions except that there are inspections going on....
Yes...information is scarce from NJT...anything else is just hearsay at the moment. CSX has gotten it's line through Philadelphia north to NJ sort of opened with signal problems reported by SEPTA...SEPTA also saiys its running to Trenton on the AMtrak line and Amtrak reports getting trains to Newark. This bid well for NJT Newark to Trenton at least. MNRR is no further along this morning and LIRR reports tree down are the main problem to Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay, and other eastern points and several high tension towers leaning over the tracks out east. Again lack of commercial power is also a major problem for the railroads.
I saw a report elsewhere that NJT did not do a good enough job of getting equipment to higher ground and that 65 locomotives and 257 passenger cars suffered varying degrees of damage.
NYCTA is in pretty bad shape from what I've read.
This is New York Times assessment:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/30/nyregion/hurricane-sandys-aftermath.html
Also the following map of lower Manhattan: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/1029-hurricane-updates/subway_tunnels.png
From what I've read elsewhere Coney Island yard, 148th St & Lenox, 207th St and the other low lying yards were emptied of equipment. I'm not sure about some of the museum equipment at Coney Island yard though.
I've seen a picture of the Sea Beach line. At Av U it had water over the platform. South Ferry on the #1 line was underwater last nite. The water was up 6" deep at the booth.
According to news reports all the East River tunnels were flooded. In addition I heard that the DeKalb Av station in Brooklyn was flooded. I can not understand that as I thought DeKalb Av & Flatbush Av were on higher ground.
Rgds IGN
Web sites www.NJTransit.com and www.MNRR.com, www.LIRR.com and www.MTA.com all have bits of information. Basically, SEPTA operations went back at noon Tuesday, but the NYC area is in bad shape. NJT reports the bridges hit on the NJCL and washouts on the NJCL and Atlantic City lines; trees across the tracks and wires down (catenary presumably) all over; power to the computer system that "operates the railroad" along with back up power, etc. have all been flooded making things difficult to ascertain. Other than the specifics on the Coast and Atlantic City lines and the loss of the operations computers, very they are revealing very little...including the snake bit Port Jervis line and the Pascack Valley line they operate for MNRR. MNRR is showing pictures on its site of the flooding at Harmon and elsewhere on the Hudson LIne, several locations on the Harlem Line and the New Cannan branch, as well as pics of the LIRR's Oyster Bay branch tree across the track, some washouts, and the flooding of West Side Yard...just west of NYP...in Manhattan. Subways and PATH all suffering from salt water covering the track and third rail power and needs to be "cleaned" before even thinking of running power through much less a train. MNRR did run a diesel powered inspection train on the Harlem but I got that from posted pictures on Facebook.
As an aside...as far as the computer being flooded and all power and back up power non existant. Few people knew this, but the DL&W RR had a back up dispatchers office at Denville, NJ station with two desks and complete phone and telegraph connections so that if anything ever happened in Hoboken, the were still able to operate everything from Denville. It was a double desk, back to back, so that the dispatchers would have faced each other and was located in the ticket office to the M&E track side. Telephones, earphones, telegraph keys, and the code dialers were all there! EL pulled it out, maybe CR. But the point is that there was a back up operations plan and location to execute that plan. Sure its sexy to have the Empire State, Wall St., and the Statue of Liberty in view and the mass complex of tracks and equipment spread out for all to see. And those cute Transit Villages around the track or tracks look nice and should bring in some money while the sale or demolition of old stations help the till, too. But it seems that a hideaway in the hills with a full communications set up, a back up in case of a total loss of the main frame of operations, would seem like an appropriate investment. In NJT's defense, I would say that I never heard that Denville was ever used under any circumstances. But right now, it would seem that a Denville like back up would certainly make tomorrow look easier to achieve.
If you click on the below link, scroll to the yellow cabs and click on the right thumbnail you will see a distant view of Hoboken Terminal.
http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2012/10/hoboken_fire_department_kept_b.html
No doubt you are familiar with it, Henry. For those who are not the waiting room is in the green (copper clad) building just to the right of the clock tower. The main entrance is in the center of the building you see. Further to the right and next to the large posts is the wall of the train sheds with 17 or 18 tracks in back of it. Off to the left are ferry slips. (Hoboken Terminal is actually a ferry terminal that accommodates a rail terminal). The concourse at the head of the tracks is not visible because of the strange large post in the front. I have read reports that the water was about 5 feet high in the concourse but here it looks more like about 2 feet high.
PS. The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad built the Hoboken Terminal in 1907 mainly for its Morris and Essex Line. In the 60's the DL&W merged with the Erie Railroad to become the Erie Lackawana and the Erie's Main Line and Bergen County line (which runs up to Port Jervis) began to use the terminal. These lines along with the Montclair Boonton line and the Pascak Valley Line still use Hoboken Terminal. Some Morris and Essex and Montclair Boonton trains also run into New York Penn Station.
I haven't heard that...but it does sound reasonable....I did hear that Public Service Electric did shut down power plants ahead of the storm because when working any water or other strikes could damage the equipment in use which cause them to take longer to come back afterward. They are drying out the equipment now. BUt I wonder if lines were not under power, how their monitoring system could work...I suppose knowing there are so many trees down, a monitoring system is superfluous anyway.
Interesting tidbid. I read that the signal system cabinets on NJT at Hoboken got flooded and all the electronics need to be replaced (Ouch $$$). I've also read where Conrail pulled the electronics from the Port Reading Secondary signal system on Monday because of concerns about flooding. (smart!)
All of the tracks at Hoboken Terminal are reported to be under water along with large parts of the whole city. The below link includes a picture of the Hoboken PATH station with water pouring out of elevator doors at the turnstiles:
http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/10/29/hoboken-in-dissaray-calls-for-national-guard-help/
If the Battery got 12 foot surge...and Hoboken the Square Mile City is underwater and isolated, I wonder if NJT moved everything out of the yards and hauled it out to the hinterlands and hills along the old EL rights of way and yards....From what I can see, anywhere on the Newark division was (is) underwater but Hoboken Division has places to stash above water lines...of course, it also has trees and debris. On the east shore of the Hudson, both the LIRR and MNRR are so close to water and water courses, there is almost no place to hide except maybe up the Harlem, Danbury, and New Canan branches. SEPTA also suffers from a lot of water level or low level lines....
It is not extreme. Takes time to secure equipment, try to waterproof or move to high ground critical stuff. They don't just park the trains in a yard and hope for the best.
MidlandMike Blue Streak, as I remember, the stairs down to the PATH Hudson Tubes was right there at Hoboken. I would hate to think of seawater cascading down the stairs unabated.
Blue Streak, as I remember, the stairs down to the PATH Hudson Tubes was right there at Hoboken. I would hate to think of seawater cascading down the stairs unabated.
It has happened before....
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