JohnWR...the problem is that NJT has always been forthcomeing and accurate with information, candid, too. This is not their usual performance which leads to suspicion and more questions. I've had conversations with railroaders and they indicated other railroads, etc. are upset and wondering what is going on at NJT. The NJT Website is the same at this hour as it was before 9 this morning with no insight as to what his happening or what might be happening....They never announced Main LIne or Port Jervis service nor NJCL service but indicated that they would not run those lines because their back up power failed and they couldn't operate.
My mind is whirring about what might be, what must be, going on inside NJT as nothing is unwinding, nothing is being reported, nothing laid out, nothing at all.
On another note...here we have a situation whereby the computer system, etc. is inoperable, the whole operating program is nil. If there were the old system of timetable and train order, coupled with cell phone and radio communications, could they, where tracks were clear or catenary didn't matter, could they operated instead of being bedded down in bits and bytes of computerese, where a person, a dispatcher person, could actually with train sheets to filled in by hand and train orders delivered by word of mouth to be written (in emergency situations) by hand by crews, operators (probably conductors) placed at key block locations (even blocks created by train order) so that trains could run? Are we so tied to computers that we don't know how to "railroad"?
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blue streak 1The silence from NJ TRANSIT does seem to be telling ?
Sadly, telling. There was an inteview on NPR with a NJT spokesman where he was asked repeated what the details were - even in broad terms. All she could get out of him was hyperbole. Nothing specific about which lines, equipment....nothing.
Then there was the interesting NJT Flickr slide show that's made the rounds. Lots of shots of boats on bridges on the North Jersey Coast Line and a washout or two and a few of flooding at MMC, but not much more.
A very peculiar lack of info, status updates, estimate....I'd grade NJT D- on communication.
By contrast, Amtrak has been all over Twitter and elsewhere with status updates, forecasts and other info. I'd grade Amtrak with an A. (I'll give them another A for effort getting things rolling again.)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Streak,
I'm willing to give both Amtrak and NJT a little time before they give a full report of the extent of the damage and what they have done about it.
Both have been prompt in reporting restorations of service and giving temporary scheduling information. I'm sure both agencies are up to their eyeballs in work trying to get service restored.
Ultimately there were be reports of everything that was or was not done. I'm sure there will be plenty of Monday morning quarterbacks expressing opinions on both sides of the issues and some of them will be right. But I can wait for that.
Meanwhile I'm busy in my own yard. The damage is not sever. A couple of tree limbs I have handled with help from my son and some serious leaf raking my son is also helping with. It could be worse. A lot worse. But it still needs doing and with snow possible on Tuesday it would be good to get it done and over with. I hope your problems are no more serious than my own.
henry6 Still not acknowledged is the CNN report of 65 locomotives and 257 cars that were caught underwater in different locations. What is also surprising is that no news organization, no reporter, nobody, has pressured NJT for answers to slowness of service returns and the lack of communications about the real problems; so far the press is accepting "lack of electric power, washouts, and trees down" as the sole explanation without finding out where and how bad. Where is NJT's equipment? What are the line by line problems in severity and number? No body is asking. On another note, kind of addressing a comment I made last night, Amtrak President Joe Boardman has asked VIA Canada for help equipping NY Empire State trains with an eye toward using Amtrak equipment in the midstates available to NJT for commuter services...is this a request from NJT? Does it reveal and address the NJT car and locomotive problem? NJT is due for a complete admission and report of their problems, situation, and search or plan for solutions.
Still not acknowledged is the CNN report of 65 locomotives and 257 cars that were caught underwater in different locations. What is also surprising is that no news organization, no reporter, nobody, has pressured NJT for answers to slowness of service returns and the lack of communications about the real problems; so far the press is accepting "lack of electric power, washouts, and trees down" as the sole explanation without finding out where and how bad. Where is NJT's equipment? What are the line by line problems in severity and number? No body is asking.
On another note, kind of addressing a comment I made last night, Amtrak President Joe Boardman has asked VIA Canada for help equipping NY Empire State trains with an eye toward using Amtrak equipment in the midstates available to NJT for commuter services...is this a request from NJT? Does it reveal and address the NJT car and locomotive problem? NJT is due for a complete admission and report of their problems, situation, and search or plan for solutions.
Henry; these are great questions. The problem probably is that no one has asked the governor what the situation is. Reporters are probably too busy with the missery of residents to follow thru on this problem. Our rail reporters need to question this. If NJ residents find out that commuting for a long time is going to be difficult then the manure will hit the fan. The silence from NJ TRANSIT does seem to be telling ?
This morning's MTA/MNRR/LIRR website shows great improvements....Croton-Harmon to GCT on the MNRR Hudson Line, Southeast to GCT on the Harlem, and New Haven to GCT on the New Haven with Poughkeepsie, Wassaic, and CT branches still out of service. LIRR is holding to Huntington, Ronkonkoma, Babylon and Great Neck to Penn Sta. with branches otherwise out of service. City subways have added some routes with 7 Train service in Queens only, the M train working Herald Sq to Archer Ave, Jamaica in place of E train service. Still no service below 34 St on any line and no service from Brooklyn as lower Manhatten is still either underwater or being dried out and inspected. Word was that the 59th and 89th St. tunnels were opened earlier this morning but not reflected yet on the service notices.
Amtrak is touting Boston-D.C. Acela service along with other Northeast Regional services through NYP. NJT opened NYP from Trenton while other lines were resuspended because of generator/computer problems for NJCL, and Raritan Valley. While there was no notice of service returning to Hoboken Division lines, there was an indication that the Bergen line may have attempted service until the generator problem developed. NJT is still quite tight lipped about their problems and predicaments. Some, probably wisely not raising hopes, but otherwise their silence is raising questions. Still not acknowledged is the CNN report of 65 locomotives and 257 cars that were caught underwater in different locations. What is also surprising is that no news organization, no reporter, nobody, has pressured NJT for answers to slowness of service returns and the lack of communications about the real problems; so far the press is accepting "lack of electric power, washouts, and trees down" as the sole explanation without finding out where and how bad. Where is NJT's equipment? What are the line by line problems in severity and number? No body is asking.
FYI MTA posted this map for subway service:
http://www.mta.info/sites/default/files/pdf/SubwayRecoveryMap.pdf
It looks like the 59th St and 63rd St tunnels are back in service.
Rgds IGN
Metro North is operating Croton-Harmon - GCT today and New Haven - GCT today,.still no service to New Canaan, Danbury, and Waterbury. NY subway has added Archer Avenue connection to Queens Blv, so LIRR passengers can access the subway at Jamaica, plus No. 7 service from Flushing to the transfer point with the Queens Blv line but not into Manhattan yet.
NJT is operating the NEC service and some North Jersey Coast service, in addition to the River Line. PATH is operating normally.
Amtrak also plans limited DC-Boston thru service starting tomorrow (Fri) according to Amtrak bulletin cited in a Trains "Passenger" thread.
My previous post is from a MTA/MNRR web page for service tomorrow (Fri.)
As of this time...MNRR's web page says no Hudson Line service and New Haven line only to Stamford...but things are happening quickly and quietly so let's see what the sunrise brings us...
MNRR Hudson line GCT to Croton-Harmon open tomorrow (Fri.)
http://alert.mta.info/sites/default/files/pdf/HUDSON%2011_02-2.pdf
Also NH line GCT to New Haven on Fri
http://alert.mta.info/sites/default/files/pdf/NEWHAVEN%2011_02%281%29.pdf
Henry; It would take about 5 of you to cover this storys completely. Newark Penn, 2- NYP, GCT, JAMACIA station. wish I could help you.
blue streak 1 It appears that NJ TRANSIT will operate FRIDAY all lines that pass thru Newark except the north jersey line. However all lines are terminating at Newark and not going to NYP. Wonder if they have no motors that operate ? With AMTRAK operating a modified scheduled to / from NYP bet AMTRAK will be jamed Newark - NYP ? As of 2015 MNRR is not operating the New Haven line Friday so maybe AMTRAK will take many delays NYP - NHN?.
It appears that NJ TRANSIT will operate FRIDAY all lines that pass thru Newark except the north jersey line. However all lines are terminating at Newark and not going to NYP. Wonder if they have no motors that operate ?
With AMTRAK operating a modified scheduled to / from NYP bet AMTRAK will be jamed Newark - NYP ?
As of 2015 MNRR is not operating the New Haven line Friday so maybe AMTRAK will take many delays NYP - NHN?.
It may be that NYP is not up to snuff with LIRR and AMtrak.. No one has mentioned anything about Sunnyside Yard...it kinda sits in a bowl below street level and may not be available for yarding...so both LIRR and Amtrak may need NYP for yard services (no mention of LIRR West Side Yard except for pics of flood waters on Tuesday). Some of NJT's trains have to turn or lay up at Sunnyside so NJT is not gonna get in the way...NJT's got equipment problems, too, but they've not addressed them publicly: how many diesels, how many electric, how many duel mode locomotives available for service? How many MU cars? How many push pull cars? How many push pull cab cars? We don't know for sure, and I fear they really aren't sure either. Corridor and Woodbridge trains can be easily handled with 6 to 10 trainsets. and the Raritan Valley with maybe 4 or 5 trainsets based on the proposed schedules...
Across the river, less than 2/3rds of the subway system is running...Lines from the Bronx and northern Queens are terminating as far south as 34th St. or Herald Sq. with the 42nd St Shuttle operating but not the 7 and E trains M trains are running in Brooklyn/Queens with J train to Hewes Ave. for bus transfer and the M train is running from Herald Sq to Jamaica via the E train route; 7 train expected to run in Queens only tomorrow. In Brooklyn there is no service on the G, F and N trains but there others are operating ending at Atlantic/Pacific Avenue or Jay St. for bus transfer to Manhatten.: the A train to Ozone Pk Lefferts Blvd, and the L train from Broadway Jct. to Rockaway Park only.
LIRR is adding Babylon and Huntington trains to Jamaica and Penn Station on Friday and MNRR's is running the Harlem Line to Southeast but not to Wassaic; the NH service will remain to Stamford as of this moment but might be able to go to New Haven (Amtrak plans on running Friday). Hudson line is still closed. SEPTA is operating with delays.
Amtrak now says it is going to run Acelas Boston to D.C. on Friday in addition to the earlier announced services: tonight's Regional Experss and a Keystone train in and out of NYP as at least one of the Hudson tunnels is opened...a Miami train is supposed to make it in and out on Fri. But the Hudson Line's washouts, etc. keep Albany service closed.
As was hoped NJT has announced limited service to Newark Penn from Trenton on the Corridor and from Woodbridge ont the NCL and from Raritan on the RVL. but no services on Hoboken Division Morristown Line, Gladstone Branch, Montclair/Boonton Line, Pascack Valley Line nor Main/Bergan Line to Suffern and Port Jervis. They have quietly posted on their website but have not elaborated on conditions on the non service lines beyond the general statement of power outages, washouts, and downed trees. Nor has their website mentioned the position of the 65 locomotives and 257 cars caught in salt water flooded yards whose return to service is doubtful. I wonder what equipment is out there that can be "borrowed"? SEPTA is phazing out their Arrow cars which would be ok on the Corridor and to Matawan on the NJCL...but HEP locomotives and push pull cars, they'll be hard to find. Nor is there much "heritage" equipment with steam heat available either.
In NYC they are saying that the subways and LIRR flooding problems are compounded by salt rather than fresh water...so, yeah, NJCL, Hoboken, and Meadows are all in salt water areas, not fresh water, so there certainly will be a lot of new stuff ordered...
beaulieu Excellent Flickr slideshow by New Jersey Transit showing the damage to their lines and equipment. NJT Slideshow
Excellent Flickr slideshow by New Jersey Transit showing the damage to their lines and equipment.
NJT Slideshow
The track and right of way damage are in line with what I would have expected from the flooding the storm caused and is not really that severe. I suspect power switch machines and other signal gear will need to be ordered by the gross. The flooding and water damage to equipment at the maintenance facilities will be a real killer in getting the system back in operation in the near term.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Scott Pelly of CBS news did an interview with Gov. Cuomo in the being rebuilt WTC PATH station, the track level was clearly flooded, though the platforms were wet but not flooded.
MTA/MN site says "Hudson Line service will remain suspended due to extensive storm damage." The line is build close to river level in many spots. It was disheartening to see the coaches up to their sills in tidal water at Croton-Harmon. For a while it became the Under-water Level Route. I wonder if things on that line are as bad as things at NJT?
The official PATH site: www.panynj.gov/alerts-advisories/inclement-weather.html on the PATH tab
PATH
November 1, 2012
8:00 a.m.
PATH service is suspended until further notice.
Again, PATH is in operation. Apparently they learned from World Trade Center September 2001 the value of closing water access to tunnels and prepared for the storm in ways that others did not. I always felt they were the most heads-up operaton in the New York area . (After all, they did hire me to do a sound-system acoustics survey in 1995. Does that make me prejudiced?) With subways out between Herald Square and Grand Central and Brooklyn, I wonder how many people in Manhattan are thinking of takiing uptown (Herald Square) PAT to New Jersey, Hoboken, Pavonia, or Grove Street, and then going back under the Hudson to World Trade Center? On one fare. It is certainly now the best way to get into Manhattan from Amtrak's trains to Newark.
Noon, Thursday Nov. 1. As of 5 minutes ago there is no NJT rail service anywhere with the exception of the Riverline between Trenton and Camden. There is also no service on the Metro North trains NJT operates to Port Jervis or on the Pascack Valley line.
Extensive damage is reported to the Newark Light Rail and the Hudson Bergen Light Rail. The Newark station, located in Newark Penn Station, is 2 full flights of stairs below ground level while all other Newark rail lines are elevated and well about ground level in the station.
Since Amtrak is running south of Newark at least the 2 center lines must be open. However, in at least one previous emergency (when I was commuting in NJT to Trenton) Amtrak refused to allow NJT to use the center tracks or to honor NJT tickets between Newark and Trenton. I can only hope this attitude has changed.
Most NJT (but not all) local bus lines are operating with some making detours. I don't know about bus service between New Jersey and Manhattan.
Actually both Hudson River bores and all four East River bores were flooded. Late yesterday one of the East River bores was cleared and last night it appears at least one other was....LIRR running from NYP to Great Neck on the Port Washington Branch and to Jamaica and Ronkonkoma on the main...Also from Brooklyn's Barcley/Atlantic Ave to Jamaica. MNRR is operating from Mt. Kisco to GCT on the Harlem line and from Stamford on the New Haven Line. BTW: Gov. Cuomo has ordered all mass transit not to collect fares, this includes buses, subways, and MNRR and LIRR in order to encourage use of mas transit rather than clog the roads. NJT is running the River Line Camden to Trenton but has been strangely quiet about its operations elsewhere except for the pics posted on its website...MTA also has about 100 pics of MNRR, LIRR, and subways. SEPTA seems to be operating as best possible with delays in places, mostly blamed on slippery rail due to leaves and rain. As for Amtrak, the Hudson line is out of service due to washouts, especially reported south of Poughkeepsie by MNRR. I've not looked at a CONDOT website to ascertain Stamford to New Haven but Amtrak reports problems between Springfield and New Haven and no service offered. As for service to Newark, I don't know...SEPTA is running to Trenton but nobody is saying anything beyond there. Could be the lack of commercial power for the cat and signal, or if not lack, the unreliability at the moment.
rcdrye 2. Run trains where they can be serviced - hence LD trains turning at DC , Philly and Albany. Even Newark is a bit of a stretch, but at least they can run around the train there if not turn it.
2. Run trains where they can be serviced - hence LD trains turning at DC , Philly and Albany. Even Newark is a bit of a stretch, but at least they can run around the train there if not turn it.
Amtrak is using Acela trainsets to run the NEC Regional service right now. That is why there is no Acela service, and it eliminates the need to turn or run around at Newark.
Penn Station was never completely cut off. Two of the four East river tunnels flooded, and one of the Hudson tunnels took on water. The other Hudson tunnel is probably necessary to get men and equipment from one end to the other to work on clearing the one with water in it. I'm guessing Sunnyside needs a bit of cleaning and care before it's ready to handle a large load.
Amtrak set up service restoration based on a few important principles:
1. Don't get in the way of ongoing repairs (see tunnel use, above)
3. Give your partners time to sort things out. The MNRR outages on the New Haven line are the block to restoring service to Penn from the east, not the East/North tunnels, though a full service restoration is certainly going to be possible without the two wet tunnels, especially if LIRR is running trains, too.
4. Don't compromise safety. The biggest problem is making sure the signal system, including the switch motors at Penn, and other safety systems are intact - a lot of this has to do with commercial power being available and stable. Right now a P32/amfleet trip down the Hudson to Penn is probably possible - at 15-20 MPH.
Until commercial power is fully restored to midtown and lower Manhattan, there aren't a lot of reasons to go there, anyway.
Things are changing rapidly this morning but have not checked the websites as yet. About a third of the NYC subway lines were supposed to start operating this morning. MNRR's apparently running with power rather than dual diesels but again haven't checked. LIRR started Jamaica to PENN last night with electricity as they did with Atlantic Ave service but don't know about Ronknonkoma; Great Neck would be electric, too. Evidenlty at least one of the East River tunnels is open as was reported by Amtrak late yesterday. Despite saying Amtrak was running to Newark their posted schedule did not show such service. Again, I've not checked sites this morning yet.
As for NJT. They've put up about 50 or so slides of Hoboken and the NJCL bridges and washouts but have otherwise been tight lipped and unspecific for the railroad in general...The reported loss of 65 locomotives and 257 cars, the command center with computers, back up power, and generators gone, have given them cuncusions and they don't know what hit them. Very unlike a usually savvy operation.
I have just heard that PATH has actually restored service on all lines. They were giving a false report on their website, but now it is real . This means that NY-Washington rail travel is possible by changing between Amtrak and PATH in Newark.
LIRR is running Ronkonkama - Penn Sta. via Jamcaica, Great Neck - Penn., and Jamaica - Brooklyn
I do not understand why NJT is not running Trenton - Newark since Amtrak is running over that route now.
NJT River Line Camden - Trenton is running
The New York subway system smartly moved its equipment out of low elevation yards onto elevated structure tracks and has restored service on most lines except from the Herald Square - Times Sq. - Grand Central area south to the vicinity of Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn. Tunnels between Manhattan and Bronx and the 60th Street and 53rd Street tunnels between Manhattan and Queens appear in use but none of the Manhattan - Brooklyn tunnels nor the Manhattan and Wiliiamsburg Bridges appear to have trains on them at the present time. Express bus shuttles are in use. The two routes in service normally running to Coney Island (Sea Beach and Brighton are not running). the D and F, stop short of going into Coney Island.
MidlandMike Is MNRR operating the lines electrically, or are they already substituting dual-power units.
saw on one of the networks showing what was claimed was the first Harlem line train and they showed an EMU. However one has to wonder if it was file footage ???
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