No new routes or services on rail reported tonight...at least not yet...for commuter or transit.. Subways are expanding but not down to Coney Island yet and E and G trains not running. PATH is not running.yet as of their Sunday morning posts. NJT has announced more buses available for connecting to Trans Hudson bus and ferry services from numerous places in the State. NJT has scheduled and reiterated that they can only run 13 trains into NYP and out in the evening for rush hour service. (Question: are all seven Port Jervis /Suffern trains guaranteed connections at Secausus?)
On another note, notices, news releases, postings from NJT are coming from Trenton and Christie's office as was mentioned earlier. In part I think this is because all communications through this situation have to be funneled through one place, and rightfully so...Chirstie is the Governor, his office is in command. NJT officials are quoted in the releases and posts. But I wonder how much any and all NJT offices being out of commission also have a bearing? I have been hard on the way communications have been sparse and incomplete from NJT...but will admit there may be reasons for this. Yet I am uneasy about giving them a clear board and disappointed that no one in the media has brought any of this up or pushed for any further information.
Oh, and Amtrak is running the Corridor as was posted yesterday and tonight more to and from Albany, too but the Lake Shore and the Maple Leaf are both being fed by shuttle trains to and from NYP. Ethan Allen is to run from NYP tomorrow....I think there probably are problems at Sunnyside so that keeping trains out of there is desirable...Corridor trains run through and can be serviced elsewhere.
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Firelock,
Thank you for your concern. My family is absolutely OK. My wife and I did not loose power at all although my son and his wife lost it for a few days. They live close to us and spent a lot of time with us. We are in Essex County well away from the shore and even from rivers.
I'm glad everything ultimately turned out well for your family too.
To John WR: Everything OK with yourself and family? Since you live in NJ I'm a bit concerned about what Sandy might have done to you and yours. Ironically, the wife and I were in Paramus NJ for a visit with her mother when Sandy decided to visit as well. No problems with us except for a loss of electric power for 48 hours. A bit of a headache but nothing to complain about compared to some other poor folks.
from NJ TRANSIT
will only operate 13 trains into NYP 0600 - 1000. usually operates 63 trains
http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=PressReleaseTo&PRESS_RELEASE_ID=2806
wonder if only one north river tunnel at a time is useable and / or problems at sunnyside yard ?
Today (Sunday) I actually rode a New Jersey Train between Newark and New York. NJT is following the emergency time table. The trains going and coming were on time and quite full but no one was standing. I went to New York shortly before noon. Riding through the meadow lands there was nothing to suggest Sandy had been through even though I looked for signs of high water. Water in the rivers was high but not over the banks. In the station the stairway to the Newark Light Rail was closed off. The arrival and departure boards were all off. The escalator up to the track was working and coming back the elevator was working. Everything seems to be working quite smoothly.
The emergency time table typically shows one or two expresses followed by a local. However, the NYP departure board showed only one train an hour, a Trenton local.
Henry; and others -- 2 diverse thoughts about NJ TRANSIT'S troubles.
1. If the NJT control center is completely trashed is it possible if the programing tapes, / etc can be taken to the AMTRAK CETA control center at PHL 30th st station and loaded there along with NJT personel?. Realizing that compuer compatibility may be a problem ? There may be a lack of control stations at PHL but should be able to find extra ones quickly ?
2. If AMTRAK can lease VIA equipment what about the HEP incompatibility. My understanding is VIA cars use a higher HEP voltage ( 570 volts ? ) and the phase order may be ( ? ) reversed as CHI METRA does ? Maybe the VIA cars can accept the 480 v AMTRAK voltage or maybe lease VIA locos as well BUF -- ALB? Then the P-30 DMs only would need modification(s) to go ALB - NYP ?
also BOS ceta might be useable ?
Check out www.railfan.com, it's the website for "Railfan and Railroad" magazine. Go to "Railnews", then the story "East Coast Railroads Devestated by Sandy." There's a slide show of the damage on the commuter roads, NJ Transit pedominating. Pretty horrendous stuff.
The Governors' offices in all states are making the announcements for everything...part of the clean up and rescue plans to keep a chain of command and communications so that all know what all others are doing. In part, anyway. Also with NJT, they don't have a command center or communications center evidently if Meadows is completely washed out. And Hoboken, of course, under water itself. Chrstie and Cuomo have both shown good command and leadership skills through this from what I can see 150-200 miles away.and reading the NJ papers and suburban NY papers, both on line.
Henry don't know what to read into it but I find it interesting that the announcement came from the governor's office. Anyone have a handle on the NJ political scene?
NJT website tonight has links to schedules...I don't know if these are just SUnday's schedules or for weekdays, too. 4 trains from PJ between 3:30AM and 7:15Am plus three trains from Suffern, same westbound in the late afternoon. Bergen and Pascack Valley lines still down as are Morristown and Montclair lines, the NJCL south of Woodbridge and the Raritan Valley line west of Raritan. So, NJT is making plans but have not said much beyond what already has been said since Monday.
Thanks for the up to date information, Henry. Bergen County people will still have service as far as Glen Rock Lower Station. Some people in southern Bergen County wil will be able to get to Main Line stations driving or by bus.
There are still the people who ride the Morris and Essex Line and Montclair-Boonton Line. They are supposed to have a lot of fallen trees over the tracks.
Here is what NJT has posted just minutes ago:
Trenton, NJ – Marking key milestones in NJ TRANSIT’s continued recovery, the Christie Administration announced this evening that four additional rail lines would resume service effective Sunday morning. Coming on the heels of the Northeast Corridor’s return to New York Penn Station on Friday morning, the announcements continue the statewide agency’s service restoration efforts following the significant damage incurred by Hurricane Sandy earlier this week.
Effective Sunday morning:
Special schedules detailing this restored service can be accessed by visiting njtransit.com.
“These announcements mark important milestones in NJ TRANSIT’s ongoing recovery efforts,” said Transportation Commissioner and NJ TRANSIT Board Chairman James Simpson. “While this is great news for our customers, the road to recovery continues. NJ TRANSIT crews continue working around the clock to restore service for our customers.”
NJ TRANSIT advises customers of the following:
Rail Service:
A number of rail stations throughout the system may have limited lighting and no elevator and escalator service due to power problems as a result of Hurricane Sandy. As a result, Secaucus Junction will not be ADA accessible until further notice. Customers are urged to use caution in and around all rail stations.
NJT has a banner on their website stating limited service to return to ML, RV, and NJCL Sunday at least but no further explanation. Deep in MNRR's website is word that some NJT Port Jervis is expected but they would be providing bus service mid days. Pascack Valley customers can bus it across the Hudson and ride to GCT. I expect more details later this evening from both....
BALT...yes, there are fewer track, signal, and structure crews...but, these services were shut down last Sunday night with plenty of time to gather crews and have them on stand by. Further, equipment was not moved to higher ground despite the early quit, the warnings of high water, etc. MNRR and LIRR have performed well but we don't know anythng about NJT because they have said nothing on their website or to the media. Yes, they have had electric problems losing everything at their command center including back up power and emergency generators. But they have not communicated their problems, specific situations, plans, and progress to anyone. This is not like NJT to be this bad, so far behind the others, not having a back up system someplace other than in the Meadows with the main system, and not communicating....they've always been better than this.
I suspect the amount of timber that needs clearing from the rights of way of all the carriers in the affected areas would support several decades of the show 'Ax Men'. Carriers these days do not have the army of MofW personnel that they had 40 or 50 years ago to accomplish such in astonishingly short periods of time. Relying on outside contractors, when everyone else also has a high demand for the same contractors doesn't speed the clearance of the timber either.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well...they closed down Sunday night, not Monday. I assumed with all that time they would have moved as much as possible, if not everything movable, to higher ground. All diesel powered stuff to west of Harriman on the Main/Bergen lines, perhaps Woodbine on the PV. Anything from Raritan and NJCL could have gone up to Port Morris and if it didn't fit there, there are two tracks from Dover to Port Morris so with them not running trains, they could just park on probably track 1 between Dover and Lake Hopactcong station. Electric stuff could have gone to Dover, and again, with no service, track one could be used for parking where necessary but Summit yard and Gladstone Yards could be used. Great Notch, its high enough too, took take in borders. But NJT's problems are what they did, what they didn't, and not talking. I am sure there are conversations and pleas going out but no media person has apparently raised questions and reported back even that there was no comment.
MNRR meanwhile is opening all the way to Wassaic, Danbury, and Waterbury on Monday in addition to the already opened Hudson Line to Poughkeepsie and to New Haven on the NHLINES. Bus to New Caanan as earlier reported. LIRR holding with Huntington, Ronkonkoma, Babylon and Port Washington services for now but may get to Far Rockaway by Monday. No word to Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson, Greenport, Patchouge-Speonk-Montauk services.
I understand that someone probably doesn't want to admit to a mistake in the hundreds of millions of dollars, but I have heard they have approached other railroads coast to coast about equipment, but I can't write any of it up because NJT will say nothing officially on the subject. They probably have at least one set in Philadelphia for restarting Atlantic City Service and the sets they put in the hills, and some sets at the yard in Morrisville, but what happens when thaty equipment comes up for their 92-day inspections? Will FRA be lenient and let it go because of their fleet issues? I've heard some of this VIA equipment might not be up to US standard, which could be another issue. Makes one wonder if there are any RDC's still around or old SEPTA Silverliners that haven't been scraped yet they could use? It could be weeks or months before NJT operates again if the numbers of equipment lost that are heard are true. But it's not as like folks haven't aksed NJT, they just haven't talked to anyone about their situation. There is one shot in their slide show, taken after water had clearly receeded that shows water in the MMC and at least one set of Jersey Arrows and Double-Deckers in the car shop when it flooded.
Yes, UPREADING85, this is what I've been reading and passing on right along. NJT pics show cars and locomotives in Bay Head and Hoboken but nowhere else nor have they said. The Middletown NY paper posted pics of a train at Otisville and there were reports that several trains were there and at Campbell Hall but did not indicate if they were from Port Jervis or Suffern. What was left in Hoboken, the Meadows, Summit, Gladstone, Great Notch, Dover, Port Morris, Suffern, Waldwick, or Spring Valley? We don't know and even the fans aren't chiming in on this. As for Joe Boardman and Amtrak, was he asked by NJT or is he acting on his own knowing the situation and his ability to help? The less NJT says, the more suspicious and scary things become. And it stretches from off the railhead to higher grounds, too.
Henry,
I can say that NJT has been asked directly what their status is, including referencing the reports of 65 locomotives and 257 railcars flooded and the media has received the same silence that everyone else has. Now come reports that Amtrak is looking at trying to get equipment from Via to cascade Amfleets to NJT and the only logical conclusion that can be arrived at, is that NJT lost a lot of equipment to flooding and doesn't want to admit to it. It would be helpful if they would just say that instead of saying nothing and letting speculation run rampant. My personal theory is that they didn't dead head equipment out of places like Atlantic City and Bay Head and got swamped at the MMC, resulting in catastrophic losses of rolling stock.
Amtrak is still cautious and appears to be scheduling/operating on a train by train basis...they are looking at CP, CSX and MNRR operations and conditions along with their own. They say to check late Saturday for Sunday's service. This, probably because it depends on crew and equipment locations and availability as well as operating conditions on MNRR, CSX west of Albany and CP north of Albany.
MTA's subways keep opening and moving futher with Lexington Ave. Manhattan running the length of the railroad and even the 7 train coming into 42nd St. MNRR is operating the Harlem line from Wassaic but others still restricted to the main in CT as New Cannan branch needs extensive recatting so there will be bustitution there. MTA story keeps unfolding by the minute as they are working to be in full business ASAP.
All still silent on the Western Front...NJT still has yesterday's 9am service notice posted with no further explanations.
2 round trips albany - NYP today saturday
The Spuyten Duyvil Movable Bridge is Amtrak's. MN owns from CP12 (Hudson Line 10.8) south to the Division Post (Hudson Line 10.7). Of course it's possible the interlocking at CP12 was damaged.
LIRR's West Side yard should not interfere with Amtrak as it is north and west of the station platforms..other owners can only mean MNRR at Spuyten Devil....MNRR owns from Poughkeepsie to Spuyten Devil and to GCT with CSX and Amtrak as tenants. .
As far as Form D NORAC rules...I am surprised that any switch outside of complexes like Hoboken, etc., isn't capable of being manually operated. And when it comes to operating or not operating, a stop to walk across a highway crossing or to throw and close a switch shouldn't be an issue.
But still the main issue is the lack of communication and disclosure by NJT so far...even this morning's website is the same reformatted information from yesterday morning as was posted last night.
Across the Hudson, more subway lines are opening, the LIRR is running to Port Washington in addition to hourly services between Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon. MNRR is regular schedules from Poughkeepsie, Southeast, and New Haven. And Amtrak is almost normal for Corridor Boston to D.C. while not operating to Albany.
One of the reasons for the Amtrak lease of the Hudson River Line was to move up the signal replacement schedule. Anyone who rode this line under Penn Central in the early 1970s remembers the long crawl through sections where the signal system would go down for a period of time.
I'm guessing that Amtrak and MNRC are giving MN the weekend to fix or replace switch machines, signal relays and other fun electrical pieces, not to mention let the roadbed settle where it had to be filled in.
Amtrak 700 series are quite capable of running on GCT third rail. A year or so ago they did just that during the work on the Spuyten Duyvil bridge. The shoes are adjustable and retractable.
Considering that Amtrak has been pretty open about what it's doing, and that we've heard nothing about the West Side line being an issue, I'm guessing it's operable, though the entrance to Penn may be a mess due to work on cleaning up the LIRR West Side connection. Amtrak's service bulletin references "repairs by other track owners". It may be that CSX deferred, since it took a fair amount of damage to freight facilities, and it wasn't clear when MN was going to reopen. Starting tomorrow, Amtrak takes over maintenance responsibility, so a Monday reopening seems plausible. MN is probably running on a reduced number of mainline tracks so they can keep working on remaining damage.
As for NJT, while NORAC rules allow for Form D (radio train order) operation, many if not most of the switches in NJT interlockings are not equipped for manual operation - so even the use of diesel powered trains may be nearly impossible. Even under Form D operation with manual switch control, NORAC rules would require an absolute stop and dispatcher permission to proceed at an interlocking.
henry6 but there could be problems between Poughkeepsie and Albany, too.
but there could be problems between Poughkeepsie and Albany, too.
afer I wrote the last post I seem to recall that almost all the Poughkeepsie - Albany route is still code line. Is that correct ?
maybe mudchicken can give us an idea of what state of repair at transfer date a lease requires?. Is it standard or is each one different ? If I was leasing I would expet the property to be mostly identical to the condition at inspection. any change after inspection would be required to be made whole ??
Based on pictures of Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, I could see where a 13' salt water surge could do damage to the workings of the swing bridge. Perhaps it's stuck in the open position. I imagine the 3rd rail shoes on the Amtrak dual power units are just made to work with the over-running 3rd rail in Penn Station, so they might not work on GCT's under-running 3rd rail.
I just read that, too, Blue Streak. Probably the West Side line is in trouble...but the Amtrak/CSX transfer concept didn't dawn on me.....but there could be problems between Poughkeepsie and Albany, too. Plus, train sets could be locked in NYP or Sunnyside...no one has said anything about Sunnyside yet.
With the re-establishment of Hudson Line service from Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie, Metro-North will resume operating regular train service on the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven Lines starting tomorrow (Saturday, November 3):
On the Hudson Line, regularly scheduled service will be restored between Poughkeepsie and Croton-Harmon/Grand Central Terminal. See a Hudson Line Timetable or Metro-North TripPlanner (Schedules) for details.
On the Harlem Line, regularly scheduled service continues between Southeast and Grand Central Terminal.
See a Harlem Line Timetable or Metro-North TripPlanner (Schedules) for details.
On the New Haven Line, regularly scheduled service continues between New Haven/Stamford and Grand Central Terminal.
See a New Haven Line Timetable or Metro-North TripPlanner (Schedules) for details.
Wassaic Branch service on the Harlem Line and New Canaan, Danbury & Waterbury Branch service on the New Haven Line remains suspended until further notice.
West-of-Hudson service remains suspended until further notice as NJ Transit continues recovery efforts.
Pascack Valley Line Customers: Transport of Rockland will provide additional TAPPAN ZEExpress bus service from the Palisades Center Mall park & ride lot to Tarrytown Station. See www.rocklandbus.com for schedule information.
Monthly and weekly tickets from Spring Valley, Nanuet and Pearl River stations will be honored on Hudson Line trains from/to Tarrytown Station.
Port Jervis Line Customers: Monthly and weekly tickets will be honored on Upper Hudson Line trains.
Customers should expect some delays. Continue to check www.mta.info, listen to news media reports, and listen for announcements at stations and onboard trains.
F
actually John, I have often been impressed with NJT's handling of situations, especially communications about problems of right of way and equipment. You can't say they've been evasive because no one has asked them a question. This is not NJT we know and expected. They have been silent, saying nothing about what is wrong, what is happening, aside from the broad brush of no electricity, washouts, and downed trees." and a couple handsful of pictures of boats on washed out tracks and bridges. This is not NJT. Tonight they've posted "updated" information which is the same thing that has been posted since 9 this morning and have not added any new or revealing explanations. From a professional media person, having worked both the public relations/advertising/marketing side and the news gathering/reporting side, my professional conclusion is that there are real problems inside NJT at the moment, that they are either hiding something they don't want us to know or that they are in a disarray.
As for computer vs. man operations...I am fully aware of businesses who cannot operate without computers where people used to get it all done before. Try asking a sweet young thing at a computer for your insurance company to turn the damned thing off and talk to you and answer your questions: they can't. Radio stations with no studios to broadcast direct to air but only rooms where you record voice into programs which you eventually connect to some other digital box somewhere which will insert your voice comment, news item, or commercial in the next cycle! But as was suggested elsewhere here, there are no old time railroaders in a position of importance who could implement a non computerized operation with a cell phone and a piece of paper and a knowledge of what his railroad is. That's the shame of today''s America: railroads, broadcasting, and even adding up your total for a Big Mac, double fries, and large coke!
I agree, Henry. NJT"s performance has not always been what I want it to be either. However, this is a storm than which none have been worse in the history of east coast railroading. I am willing to cut them some slack.
As to dependency on computers we no longer know how to railroad. It isn't just railroading, Henry, it is the whole society. On the one hand, intelligence technology has led to great increases in productivity. On the other hand certain kinds of knowledge which used to be second nature to all of us are just dying out. For example, in high school I was taught to estimate. Given a problem such as 1722 divided by 37 I instinctively divide 1600 by 40 to get 40 and then work the answer. This means I do not make a mistake on the order of a factor of 10 or 100. I find young people today just don't do that; they punch the numbers into a calculator and leave it at that. But it a decimal point is misplaced there can be a big problem.
Why make a telephone call or two when you can send an e mail and forget it? Why write it out in pen and ink and then give it or mail it when you can just type it on a screen and press "send?" When even bother to read a paper timetable when you can just type in your origin and destination and the time you need to get there and be told your train time? That's where the society is today, Henry. It is not with old guys like you and me who plod along on the time tested path; young people zip by and leave us in the dust. We're luck they put up with us.
For all of that new technology offers so much so fast I think we push it too hard. When it crashes (as it just did) it can leave a lot of problems, the least of which is that people in charge don't really understand what has happened much less what they need to do to correct it. But that is the way it is.
It seems to me that was the way it was back when Jay Gould ran the Erie. The more it changes the more it is the same.
henry6 Are we so tied to computers that we don't know how to "railroad"?
Are we so tied to computers that we don't know how to "railroad"?
In a short term, single word - YES
There are no fall back mechanisms in place to operate CADS dispatched railroads without CADS. Todays CADS systems do not have paper train sheets or any operating rules in place to support such a form of railroading. Today's Dispatchers, except for the rare oldtimer, have no conception of how to operate a 'Time Table & Train Orders' form of opeation.
When CSX decentralized their Jacksonville Operations Center, each dispatching office was provided with a computer that can operate the full system.
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