MidlandMikeWhen it comes to weather, remember NJ has a Republican administration, and the party line is that climate change is not believable . Recall earlier in this thread there was a study on how climate change would effect NJT (IIRC it was sponsered by a Hoboken democrat). When the study was completed it was, as they say, dead on arrival. It also concluded that they would have 20 years to prepare. So as the hurricane approached, there might be a tendency to regard the extreme storm serge as more alarmist exaggeration by those same climate scientist. Instead they decided a bigger threat was inland valley flooding, which they had seen in previous hurricanes. This also explains why the administration is not pressing the issue.
That's not what he meant, and you know it.
Even down here in Tennessee, online railroad groups were commenting about how the storm was going to be not only severe, but a 'perfect' confluence of two weather patterns. Tracking it at least five days before it actually hit. Commenting on how the weather was beginning to influence theinfrastructure as the storm was only just arriving.
Not moving the trains was nothing more sinister than bureaucratic stupidity (imho). No need to inject political supposition -- or broad-brush caricature of Republicans or the current NJ administration -- into this discussion. The magnitude of the storm surge was recognized long before it reached the Jersey coast and the upper harbor, and any idiot knows (1) there will be waves on top of that surge, and (2) look at a topo map if you have to, and see if any of your assets lie below the level that is coming... if you are going to imply that NJT people voluntarily put their heads in the sand for some bureaucratic/career reason, or to 'satisfy' some perceived political agenda or propaganda .. I can only say 'show me the cites' before you should expect me to give it credence.
If you want a true example of a fleet being caught without adequate warning, look at the Martz buses in Wilkes-Barre during the Agnes-generated flood. If we were talking something like a supercell tornado system, then there might be some justification for not moving a large number of cars expediently. That just wasn't the case for Sandy.
RME
Overmod [Not moving the trains was nothing more sinister than bureaucratic stupidity (imho). No need to inject political supposition -- or broad-brush caricature of Republicans or the current NJ administration -- into this discussion. The magnitude of the storm surge was recognized long before it reached the Jersey coast and the upper harbor, RME
[Not moving the trains was nothing more sinister than bureaucratic stupidity (imho). No need to inject political supposition -- or broad-brush caricature of Republicans or the current NJ administration -- into this discussion. The magnitude of the storm surge was recognized long before it reached the Jersey coast and the upper harbor, RME
blue streak 1 Maybe the bureaucratic stupidity came from statements from higher ups maybe months prior to "SANDY" stating that the persons expressing alarm were a bunch of kooks. "IRENE" was a big fluke. Mind sets can come from months of statements from you[r] supervisor(s).
Time to break out the tinfoil hat, Alice. And the wire brush.
Go back and look at the meteorological data for Sandy ... for any hurricane, for that matter. Tell me how long between when the disturbance reaches hurricane force, and the time it makes continental landfall. [Hint: it is not a month, let alone 'months'. No amount of down-the-rabbit-hole 'logic' will refute this.
A somewhat better theory is to ignore the reported growth or magnitude of the storm. It's no longer possible to be taken by surprise as those poor bastids on Long Island, having their little 'storm parties' in 1938, were. We havwe satellites. We have cameras. We have hysterical weatherpeople blowing every little event into a Major Risk Event... but they also provide us with plehty of tools and resources, even as reported over the air, to understand what is going on and what the implications are likely to be.
I am reasonably sure that somewhere in the PA infrastructure there are people who understand how tides work, and understand that the direction can influence the rise of level (ever been to the Bay of Fundy?) Now the storm track is known, and hence the effective direction of the surge mass is known, and it is not rocket science to figure out what the effective surge level at some point of interest up the Harbor or into the Hudson is going to be. And even if not, the calculations can be done HOURS before the storm surge begins to make levels rise.
Now if supervisors are too stupid to ignore this, or don't have the education or the training or the insight or the resolve to go look at the data -- well, what they got was its own reward. But your claim that it reflects some longstanding bias against climate change or whatever is... well, Bill and Ted had an excellent word for it.
Overmod ... Not moving the trains was nothing more sinister than bureaucratic stupidity (imho). No need to inject political supposition -- or broad-brush caricature of Republicans or the current NJ administration -- into this discussion. The magnitude of the storm surge was recognized long before it reached the Jersey coast and the upper harbor, and any idiot knows (1) there will be waves on top of that surge, and (2) look at a topo map if you have to, and see if any of your assets lie below the level that is coming... if you are going to imply that NJT people voluntarily put their heads in the sand for some bureaucratic/career reason, or to 'satisfy' some perceived political agenda or propaganda .. I can only say 'show me the cites' before you should expect me to give it credence. ... RME
...
Earlier in this thread there was a reference to statements made by the NJT official that he was aware of the weatherman's reports but he made the conscious decision to rely on historical precedent that the meadow yard had not flooded in previous hurricanes. The magnitude of the storm surge was predicted but it's accuracy can't be known until it happens. I take them at their word that they believed it would not flood, and would not accuse them of letting the equipment flounder for "career reason, or to 'satisfy' some perceived political agenda..." Decisions are based on values, and disregard of climate extremes seems to be a consistent underlying theme (IMHO).
If there is a silver lining in this tragedy -- it is that next time they'll be smrt enough to move!
I'd like to think that it won't be Chicken Little overreaction, like Rita after Katrina. But considering the cost of the NJT assets, and the certainty of enormous repair cost for even partial flooding, erring on the 'conservative' side -- and having a coherent rapid-response plan to move equipment -- would be a good thing to see.
Historical analogy: After the Titanic sinking, White Star went massively overboard on lifesaving equipment, extending to having lifeboats in rotating davit arrangements for rapid loading, on the then-building Britannic,
In 1915, the Britannic, loaded with injured soldiers, hit a mine (and probably suffered a coal-dust explosion) and sank in less than 35 minutes, heeling over so that some of the fancy lifeboats were blocked. ow many were drowned?
OvermodNot moving the trains was nothing more sinister than bureaucratic stupidity (imho).
Specific individuals made decisions to store locomotives and cars in the Kearny repair facility. The decisions were unrelated to the bureaucratic structure. In the hearings Executive Director Jim Weinberg explained the basis for the decision was that management officials had never experienced such a severe storm and therefore they ignored the weather forecasts.
IIRC the shops at this yard were also flooded. Maybe if they move the shops they will relocate the whole yard, and avoid future salt water problems.
MidlandMike Maybe if they move the shops they will relocate the whole yard, and avoid future salt water problems.
Henry has pointed out the DL&W had a facility in Denville.
MidlandMike IIRC the shops at this yard were also flooded. Maybe if they move the shops they will relocate the whole yard, and avoid future salt water problems.
John WR MidlandMike Maybe if they move the shops they will relocate the whole yard, and avoid future salt water problems. Henry has pointed out the DL&W had a facility in Denville.
Denville is handy to that suburban end of line whereas the meadows is handy to the terminal zone. Would it be useful to retain a facility for normal terminal zone operations?
Yesterday (Thursday), the Bergen Record newspaper of Hackensack had another editorial ("Frosty in Hoboken") about the commuter amenities in Hoboken Terminal. This editorial was more focused than the first editorial on the lack of response from NJT personnel, and was very sarcastic.
Today, the paper carried a long opinion piece on the same topic ("To NJ Transit, a toilet is an amenity"), which again heavily criticized NJTransit management. The writer also criticized Governor Christie for his support of the NJTransit Chairman and the Commissioner of the DOT, writng that this is just short of "Heckuva job, Brownie."
The writer also mentioned that he commutes through Hoboken Terminal daily, and has yet to see any work crews other than at the PATH station. Appearently, this issue has now become personal. Hopefully, this means that media pressure on NJT will continue.
The link to the Bergen Record is www.northjersey.com. For reasons unknown to me, I cannot insert any links directly to newspaper articles into any of my documents.
Dear Gov Christie -- Please give your self this advice and require NJT to do the same thing ---
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Christie_NJ_adopting_feds_advisory_flood_maps.html
sandyhookkenThe link to the Bergen Record is www.northjersey.com. For reasons unknown to me, I cannot insert any links directly to newspaper articles into any of my documents.
Every commuter in this state should read Doblin: To New Jersey Transit a toilet is an amenity. Here is a link that I think will work if you cut and paste it: http://www.northjersey.com/columnists/doblin/doblin_012513.html?c=y&page=2
The Record is a fairly widely read newspaper in this state. I'm surprised that New Jersey Transit are so quick to dismiss an editorial writer who has a regular column in that paper. One thing is clear. New Jersey Transit has taken a regular commuter who rides their trains and made him into an enemy.
sandyhookken("Frosty in Hoboken"
Here is a link to this unsigned editorial. Here are editorial demands that the complete lack of any heating for transit riders be fixed now. After all, we are having temperatures in the single digits in the early morning when a lot of commuters pass through the station. If you come in on a train and must wait 20 or 30 minutes for a bus there is a real danger of frostbite. Does anyone at NJT care?
MidlandMikeDenville is handy to that suburban end of line whereas the meadows is handy to the terminal zone. Would it be useful to retain a facility for normal terminal zone operations?
Mike,
Excuse me if I'm being obnoxious. But is it useful to have salt water flood locomotives and cars?
John WR MidlandMikeDenville is handy to that suburban end of line whereas the meadows is handy to the terminal zone. Would it be useful to retain a facility for normal terminal zone operations? Mike, Excuse me if I'm being obnoxious. But is it useful to have salt water flood locomotives and cars?
If you had read the entire post you would have seen it began with:
MidlandMikeI thought it was obvious we were talking about relocating the facility out of the salt water flood zone but still close to the terminal area.
I guess then my question has to be which terminal? There are several.
I didn't mean to suggest that Denville was an ideal location for such a facility. However, some trains might have been stored there during Sandy.
After many many weeks New Jersey Transit announced yesterday that Hoboken Terminal will be open and heat will be provided on Tuesday, January 29. This last week especially has been hard on commuters with morning temperatures in the single digits.
Here is a link to the NJT announcement: http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=PressReleaseTo&PRESS_RELEASE_ID=2834
henry6 oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
Sorry in advance for resurrecting this bit of the conversation, but I have had a chance to actually look over some of the relevant material. See GCOR 1.3.1 and 4.2, for example, if you'd like 'chapter and verse' about what a railroad can and cannot do in case of emergency.
I'm sure NORAC has similar language (although my copy was lost on a corrupted disk and I've only just obtained another). (EDIT: see later post on this subject.]
Since we are talking unoccupied passenger trains being laid up on a section of line where there will be no opposing moves or lack of detailed information, and where there is probably working PTC still, I don't see where a safety issue that trumps emergency permission would exist. By the rules and procedures, that is...
John WR MidlandMikeI thought it was obvious we were talking about relocating the facility out of the salt water flood zone but still close to the terminal area. I guess then my question has to be which terminal? There are several. I didn't mean to suggest that Denville was an ideal location for such a facility. However, some trains might have been stored there during Sandy.
Earlier I used the term terminal zone by which I meant the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I am presuming they may wish to retain a maintenance facility handy to the area, but out of the flood zone ( I have to keep repeating the last part because every time I don't, people seem to assume I would keep the facility in the flood zone.)
MidlandMike Earlier I used the term terminal zone by which I meant the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I am presuming they may wish to retain a maintenance facility handy to the area, but out of the flood zone ( I have to keep repeating the last part because every time I don't, people seem to assume I would keep the facility in the flood zone.)
Recently it was reported that NJT is looking for such an area around New Brunswick although that is not in the NYP/Hoboken/Newark area. I think the problem may be that there is really no available place near to the Hoboken Division and the Newark Division that is not in a flood zone.
You are right that Denville is kind of far out for Newark Division trains. As would any place on the Port Jervis line be.
What I wonder is whether or not the Kearny yard is a reasonable place for NJT's repair facility or did Sandy make it unsafe for even that. Storing trains during a weather emergency is one thing; repairing them and servicing them is different and that may be possible in Kearney.
OK, some general NORAC rules applicable to the situation involved here.
General rule "L" states that employees MUST protect company affairs and property if endangered, and must "unite" to do so. (One suspects that this might cover activity by operating personnel otherwise cited as authorities in the rules, even in the absence of 'direction' by higher-ups and politicos who might have been corrupted by ideology or whatever. In practice -- the wisdom of this might be 'somewhat dubious'...) But it is in the book for a reason...
General rule N states that compliance with ordinary operating rules may be superseded '[when] otherwise directed'. So plans like the one oltmannd proposed would be clearly possible within 'timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc.' -- it helps to actually look at the relevant material rather than just alluding to it.
But we also find very detailed ways in which trains can be moved at high density, both to yards and to one (or more) tracks of an available main line, within the NORAC rules as stated. I will not bore everyone with a fully-detailed treatment of how this is done, but one example is that a combination of Rule 241 and the authority granted under things like 712 or 716(a)(2)(a)(1) [note, this is proof I'm not making this up' who would imagine something as convoluted as that in work product from anything less than a committee or a Government agency] allows equipment, subsequently operated at 'restricted speed' as defined in Rule 80, to approach within nearly any distance of already-parked equipment. 130(a) and (c) cover all necessary protection of the end of the 'previous' train -- likely this would be done by one employee given authority under something like 132(a) rather than by the previous train's crew directly.
But wait ... there's more; in the absence of available yard capacity it is perfectly OK under existing rules to take a track out of service between two points and park equipment on it, pursuant to 133 et seq. (I'd recommend keeping 50' spacing with portable derails between trains, and 'safety break' of at least 300' either side of a crossing, and 150' minimum to switch fouling point of main crossovers or sidings, and so forth, if multiple trains were being parked on the 'out-of-service' segment).
All that is required for operation of the remaining track is covered in rules like 400 and 401; there are provisions for DCS (the "D" by the way standing for Form D) by issuing a Form D line 2 order to any train running counterflow in 251 territory or observing normal passing procedure for an occupied or a 'work' track by trains in 261 territory -- so bidirectional service over the line can continue with only minor incumbrance while the track segment in question is being used for temporary emergency storage.
It pays to read the book! (Pity the NJT supervisors didn't think of this earlier! ;-) )
Rules can always be superseded by an authoritative official usually the General Manager or under the authority of the General Manager. When there is a state of Emergency or the railroad or its signals are not otherwise operative, the GM and his subordinates do what has to be done usually with rules suspended and direct permission or directions from the "brass hats".
ON A COMPLETELY, BUT NOT THAT COMPLETELY, DIFFERENT NOTE; A half dozen NJT Bilevels including at least one cab car were tacked on the hind end of the NS local Sun 1/27/13....saw them leaving the passing siding at Owego,NY at 3:45PM presumably heading to Hornell or Dansville to get the salt washed out and interiors repaired?
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henry6ON A COMPLETELY, BUT NOT THAT COMPLETELY, DIFFERENT NOTE; A half dozen NJT Bilevels including at least one cab car were tacked on the hind end of the NS local Sun 1/27/13....saw them leaving the passing siding at Owego,NY at 3:45PM presumably heading to Hornell or Dansville to get the salt washed out and interiors repaired?
Henry, this may deserve its own thread, perhaps in General Discussion.
Are there pictures...
Last night--Monday, January 28--Hoboken Terminal re-opened. It is heated so commuters can get out of the cold. Benches need to be refurbished and returned and there are no restrooms in the terminal--outside there are port a johns and a train parked on track 8 has restrooms. Work still has to be done but the terminal is open and heated.
PATH started service today wedensday according to this article.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/rapid-transit/path-resumes-hoboken-wtc-service.html?channel=62
blue streak 1PATH started service today wedensday according to this article.
It's now running from Hoboken to World Trade Center. What is not clear is whether or not you can go directly from Hoboken to 33rd Street or have to change trains.
The Asbury Park Press had an article on Tuesday (01/28) which included the following itemization of NJTransit's flood casualties:
261 passenger cars:
84 Bilevels
124 Comet (unpowered coaches)
53 Electric Multiple Unit
62 Locomotives:
9 ALP-45DP (dual-powered)
11 ALP-46 (Electric)
42 assorted diesels
It's not clear from the article what the source of these figures is.
On weekdays, full service is being provided. Hoboken - 33, Hoboken - WTC, Journal Square - 33, and Newark - WTC. The only shutdown currently is all-day Sat and Sun (and night) when WTC and Grove St, are closed, and also a change of trains required at Journal Sq, with one line running JS-Newark and the other JS-Hoboken-33. Full restoration including weekends is promised by the end of February.
The Bergen Record reported today that NJTransit has admitted that the number of coaches and locomotives damaged in Hurricane Sandy are more that had been previously reported.The new figures are 272 coaches and 70 locomotives. The article states that Transit personnel have raised "Security" as the reason for refusing to provide information.
The article is at http://www.northjersey.com/news/transportation/NJ_Transit_Sandy_damage_estimate_up_to_450_million.html?page=all
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