Also in the article it states to the effect that Linden is the only place they can quickly store 300 cars. I can't buy that nor can I buy that it is the only place that wasn't flooded. Port Morris wasn't flooded nor were other yards on the Hoboken Division west of Newark or north of Secaucus Jct.. Plus, if you aren't going to be running trains, you have at least one track where there are multiple tracks and the ends of branches with no traffic. I'm not getting a good feeling about these guys knowledge of their property and operations. Nor how disasters might affect them.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 .. Plus, if you aren't going to be running trains, you have at least one track where there are multiple tracks and the ends of branches with no traffic.
.. Plus, if you aren't going to be running trains, you have at least one track where there are multiple tracks and the ends of branches with no traffic.
Anyone have an idea of how long D/H trains could be both EMU and loco / motor hauled. Would have been easy to run a 2 or 4 car train out on other track and pick up engineers as they brought the trains up the designated storage track ? Has NJT cleared trees away from any of their tracks ? Good project to get enough space now for when the next storm comes. Worry about trees and CAT torn down?. a minor problem especially if CAT turned off once trains are stored ?
Yes, this was discussed in a post or two earlier....effectively one locomotive cannot pull more than one train. But they have the crews to move as many trains as they have to...if there is an open track and it is dry on top and underneath, then it is viable to park on...As for falling trees or wires, whats the difference between a day or two of cleaning up the debris and having 252 cars and 60 some engines nrepresen ting over a third of your equipment and power flooded with salt water and out of service for an undetermined amount of time? Railroaders know how to railroad, computer readers know how to read computers.
Let's think some more about the idea of parking trains out on mainlines rather than yards, before a hurricane. The first train parks at the designated far end, and the crew is picked up. Then the next train approaches until the red signal and then proceeds at reduced speed until it comes up to the first parked train. Of course the next train sees a red signal another block back and slows, so the cascading effect is that all the trains are soon going at (yard) limited speed, so the operation is going to take a long time. Of course the mainline chosen can't be in an inland flood prone area (remember the Ramapo River going on rampage the previous season). Still there are frequent culverts that could wash out, and cuts and fills that could collapse in torrential rains. So after the storm we may have trains parked with trees and cat wire draped over them, with brakes in the rail line at culverts, and maybe some cars wallowing in slumped-out cuts and fills. You can't move the cars until you fix the track and you can't fix the track and cat until you move the cars. It sounds like non-flood prone yards would be safer. It might not be prudent to put all the equipment in a single yard, so to avoid some unforeseen event like a hurricane spawned tornado.
Yards have to chosen carefully, and main lines have to chosen carefully. But both are useful and both were used by LIRR and MN during Sandy.
MidlandMikeOf course the next train sees a red signal another block back and slows, so the cascading effect is that all the trains are soon going at (yard) limited speed, so the operation is going to take a long time.
They had about a day and a half for the time they shut down until the storm hit. You can do a lot in a day and a half.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Signals be damned...this is an emergency...rules applications and radio communications under close supervision would get the job done. The job can be done if one has the conviction to get it done.
NORAC rules allow for all sorts of special setups under Form D orders.
henry6effectively one locomotive cannot pull more than one train.
Henry,
I'm not sure what you mean here. When NJT began they used old Conrail or perhaps Erie locomotives. They would break down. When that happened usually we would wait for the next train which would push us along making all station stops twice. One locomotive for two trains including the disabled locomotive moved slowly. But it did move.
John
MidlandMikeLet's think some more about the idea of parking trains out on mainlines rather than yards, before a hurricane.
It is true, Mike. All of the problems you foresee might have happened. And they might not have happened. Probably some would have and some wouldn't have and it would have taken a while to get everything untangled.
Instead of that NJT choose the worst possible option: The swamp. The information they had -- the weather prediction -- was that the place would flood. They ignored that information and didn't even try to save their equipment.
There is something about the computer systems and power cars and power available from the locomotive not so much to pull but to power the trainsets...it was discussed earlier...
henry6There is something about the computer systems and power cars and power available from the locomotive not so much to pull but to power the trainsets...it was discussed earlier...
Perhaps things have changed since those not very good old days, Henry. When NJT first began it seems that a train would break down every month or two. I was either on the broken down train or on the next train that had to push it. But once NJT got new locomotives the breakdowns stopped. It has been many years since I've been on a train that broke down.
henry6 Signals be damned...this is an emergency...rules applications and radio communications under close supervision would get the job done. The job can be done if one has the conviction to get it done.
So you would ignore safety rules, perhaps have a train run past a signal at speed greater than visual limit, hit the back of a parked train and crush the engineer. It would be better it the train was left to the flood.
John WR MidlandMikeLet's think some more about the idea of parking trains out on mainlines rather than yards, before a hurricane. It is true, Mike. All of the problems you foresee might have happened. And they might not have happened. Probably some would have and some wouldn't have and it would have taken a while to get everything untangled. Instead of that NJT choose the worst possible option: The swamp. The information they had -- the weather prediction -- was that the place would flood. They ignored that information and didn't even try to save their equipment. John
As I said in my original post, the trains should be left in non flood prone yards, not the ones that were predicted to flood.
MidlandMike [ So you would ignore safety rules, perhaps have a train run past a signal at speed greater than visual limit, hit the back of a parked train and crush the engineer. It would be better it the train was left to the flood.
[
No you don't ignore anything. There are rules, regulations, etc. which allows for all kinds of operations in an emergency or out of the ordinary procedures. Doesn't any railfan today know about schedules, timetables, books of rules, special rules, etc? In short doesn't any railfans know how a railroad operates?
So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
MidlandMikeAs I said in my original post, the trains should be left in non flood prone yards, not the ones that were predicted to flood.
I agree. And I would add that they were left in one of the worst places that existed.
oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED
Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
henry6 MidlandMike [ So you would ignore safety rules, perhaps have a train run past a signal at speed greater than visual limit, hit the back of a parked train and crush the engineer. It would be better it the train was left to the flood. No you don't ignore anything. There are rules, regulations, etc. which allows for all kinds of operations in an emergency or out of the ordinary procedures. Doesn't any railfan today know about schedules, timetables, books of rules, special rules, etc? In short doesn't any railfans know how a railroad operates?
In my original post I said "Then the next train approaches until the red signal and then proceeds at reduced speed until it comes up to the first parked train." I think your reply was "D--- the signals..." which lead me to believe that you were ignoring safety. Various rules sometimes allow you to proceed at restrictive speed past a red signal depending on the situation, but they don't allow you to just ignore the signal.
I'm sure there are different ways to park trains out on the line, but this seems a last resort. The point I was trying to get across is that a better plan may be to have designated storage yards that have been pre-evaluated as to survivability for various weather situations which may be predicted.
MidlandMikeThe point I was trying to get across is that a better plan may be to have designated storage yards that have been pre-evaluated as to survivability for various weather situations which may be predicted.
Mike,
That is a valid point. Certainly if we are looking for a place to store rail equipment (or anything) in the event of a severe storm we should try to find the best place available.
In this case there was a storm that was the worst in recorded history. We cannot expect advance preparation for it since there was insufficient reason to expect it. But what NJT might have done upon hearing the weather reports was to look around and see what was available. To the extent higher ground yards were available they could have been used. And if more storage was needed higher ground mainline track could have been used also.
No doubt there would have been problems. A generally confused situation, fallen trees and even downed wires. But severe salt water damage could have been avoided.
John, I think we can all agree that storing equipment in a yard located in a salt marsh during a record storm serge is not a good idea. I always wondered why so much equipment was located there, rather than at the outer suburban yards where I would have expected it to be at the end of the day they shut down. I'm guessing some of it was relocated from Bay Head.
Anyway what I am advocating is that they survey their yards for weather and geologic hazards, and make contingency plans for their next natural disaster.
MidlandMikeAnyway what I am advocating is that they survey their yards for weather and geologic hazards, and make contingency plans for their next natural disaster.
That is a wise recommendation. As I understand it that is exactly what NJT is doing.
While we here and other observers agree storing equipment in the Kearney yard was not a good idea it is not at all clear that NJT management sees this as a mistake. And the legislators charged with overseeing them seem inclined not to dispute their view.
henry6 oltmannd So, you park'em one per block. The following trains could wheel up to the stop signal at medium (30mph) speed. Jitney sweeps along the line and collects the crews. QED Go read the timetables, schedules, books of rules, operating procedures, etc. before you comment further. This is for your own sake...
You get an approach signal, the rule is medium speed prepared to stop at the next signal.
We have another shot at NJT's lack of planning
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/17/storm-sandy-njt-idUSL1E9CGEFO20130117
John WR MidlandMikeAnyway what I am advocating is that they survey their yards for weather and geologic hazards, and make contingency plans for their next natural disaster. Mike, That is a wise recommendation. As I understand it that is exactly what NJT is doing. While we here and other observers agree storing equipment in the Kearney yard was not a good idea it is not at all clear that NJT management sees this as a mistake. And the legislators charged with overseeing them seem inclined not to dispute their view.
For a political appointee to admit a $100 million mistake, it would be a career ending event.
MidlandMikeFor a political appointee to admit a $100 million mistake, it would be a career ending event.
For the kind of salaries NJT management makes why didn't they realize that substituting their judgement for weather reports by the best experts around was not a good decision?
John WR MidlandMikeFor a political appointee to admit a $100 million mistake, it would be a career ending event. For the kind of salaries NJT management makes why didn't they realize that substituting their judgement for weather reports by the best experts around was not a good decision?
When it comes to weather, remember NJ has a Republican administration, and the party line is that climate change is not believable . Recall earlier in this thread there was a study on how climate change would effect NJT (IIRC it was sponsered by a Hoboken democrat). When the study was completed it was, as they say, dead on arrival. It also concluded that they would have 20 years to prepare. So as the hurricane approached, there might be a tendency to regard the extreme storm serge as more alarmist exaggeration by those same climate scientist. Instead they decided a bigger threat was inland valley flooding, which they had seen in previous hurricanes. This also explains why the administration is not pressing the issue.
MidlandMikeThis also explains why the administration is not pressing the issue.
Well, Mike, your explanation is consistent with the facts here. But I think the idea that all Republicans ignore weather reports and prefer to deny global warming is a bit of a stretch.
John WR MidlandMikeThis also explains why the administration is not pressing the issue. Well, Mike, your explanation is consistent with the facts here. But I think the idea that all Republicans ignore weather reports and prefer to deny global warming is a bit of a stretch.
I'm not so cynical that I think that everyone in that or any party all think in lockstep. I don't know that the NJT managers are affiliated with any party, but they know the institutional culture they operate in. The cynical explanation seems to fit in this case.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.