Thanks for the Road Warrior's article, Mike. It goes into the details of the State hearing more completely than I have otherwise read. And Jim Weinstein's comment that there will be no further fare increases as long as he is executive director will, perhaps, spread a little oil on the troubled waters of the public reaction to his decision not to move equipment to higher ground.
alloboard I remember when the Jersey Arrow III's went all thee way to Long Branch. Why was there a modification at Matawan that affected the Arrow III's
I remember when the Jersey Arrow III's went all thee way to Long Branch. Why was there a modification at Matawan that affected the Arrow III's
Long Branch? Are you sure? I know the existing electric system was extended from South Amboy to Matawan by PC. When NJT extended power to Long Branch they did it with the different system. I think you mean to Matawan.
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a 2009 flood plain map of Hudson county. Notice all the MMC is included in it + a lot other rail lines
http://www.state.nj.us/njoem/plan/pdf/maps/hudson_slosh.pdf
MidlandMike SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option.
SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option.
I cannot definitely address the Silverliner-4s however since they are DC traction no inverters would be required and the auxiliaries would be tapped directly off the CAT feed transformer which also feeds a traction rectifier. Most of the auxilaries should only work on 25 Hz.
The -5s are a different animal. CAT is fed to the transformer which is a 25 Hz transformer capable of using 60 Hz as well. Transformer outputs go to a rectifier that then feeds inverters for both traction and auxiliaries. The transformer was is tapped with parallel connections to operate with the CAT power. The -5 specifications stated that provision for an automatic changing mechanisim if needed could be easily installed by SEPTA to connect the transformer in series for 25Kv. I do not know that any is installed. If for some reason the -5s were needed now New Haven -Boston the mechanisim if available can be easily installed .
One item I have no knowledge is whether the RDG lines still use 11Kv or changed to match the PRR conversion to 12Kv. That is not a problem for the -5s as they can operate at full power with voltages as low as 10.2kV or as high as 13.4 Kv well within the limits of 11 - 12Kv 25 Hz or 12.5Kv 60 Hz.
Just what I've been saying all along...this article is addressed above...
The NY Times has an article critizing N Transit for their lack of communication after sandy to their riders.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/social-media-strategy-crucial-for-transit-agencies-after-storm.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&ref=nyregion
Yeah Mike...when SEPTA was merging its inherited PRR and RDG systems they had to make choices. I'm not sure what they finally did but I do know trains run through 30th St and Suburban Sta. to and from the hinterlands of both former railroads.
Henry, in another thread they were discussing a similar situation in Philly where SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option. I hope someday they upgrade the old PRR/NEC system (and connecting lines) and avoid the problem.
PS: the earlier thread was: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/211543.aspx
MIke...yes that's true. But more importantly is that NJT chose Bi Levels and locomotives rather than MU's for operations. As for those MU's which exists: some are capable of running either on the Corridor and on the Morristown Lines but do not have the capability of changing voltages on the fly...they must stop to make the change. The same changeover exists on the NJCL at Matawan. How simple is it to fix so they can adjust on the fly? I don't know.
With regards to lack of NJT MUs, I understand that while they operate on some lines, they can't make an on-the-fly transition from the ex-DLW lines to the ex-PRR lines which are different voltages and AC frequencies, without stopping and flipping a switch on the outside of each MU car.
John WR Mike, I agree with you; the Star-Ledger is just doing it job in reporting the news. And I also agree that political leaders may be pulling their punches to avoid risking Federal aid. But I still wonder how long our elected officials can avoid the elephant in the room. John
Mike,
I agree with you; the Star-Ledger is just doing it job in reporting the news. And I also agree that political leaders may be pulling their punches to avoid risking Federal aid. But I still wonder how long our elected officials can avoid the elephant in the room.
John
Sometimes it seems that politicians only hold hearings to grandstand their own agenda or bash opposing parties, however, sometimes they hold hearings on matters of heightened public concern. This was the case earlier this week in Trenton:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/183114211_Road_Warrior__How_Sandy_fooled_NJ_Transit_has_to_stick_to_promises_on_storms.html
I wouldn't call it politics by any means...it is rules and regulations defining a locomotive as having controls and motors to propel itself and other vehicles. Therefore it is more closely monitored and maintained. Impractical? Maybe a stretch...but safety is good as is a well maintained machine. Maybe there should be a different standard set to motorize cars here than to locomotives especially with new electronics and technology. Still, too, if a motor car is 90-100% available because of close monitoring the more efficient it should be and less costly to the operators. The decision to go with push pull was economic and, if not for not understanding the needs and differences between different lines, probably a good one. But there are many a good argument why MU's would have been a better choice...mostly in my mind, but there are quite a few others who agree. MU's probably would have been better than BiLevels and high platforms and would possibly be better than reverse signalling and /or a third track from Maplewood to Denville and Dover. So Bi Level Push Pulls to high level platforms is the philosophy chosen.
NJT inherited the PRR electric system from Trenton and Princeton to Sunnyside and the former New York and Long Branch from South Amboy and Matawan to Jersey City, or what was left, from Conrail. It also got the DL&W lines from Dover, Morristown, Gladstone, and Montclair to Hoboken. NJT did extend the Montclair Line electric from Montclair to Great Notch yard, the NY&LB to Long Branch and installed the Kearny connection for Midtown direct services from Morristown and took over Morrisville PA yard. There has been talk of extending the wires from Dover to Port Morris and from Montclair to Denville from time to time, but I think that is over beers or martinis. Bay Head has often been mentioned, too..
henry6Each motorized car is considered a locomotive and must be inspected and maintained as such and not as a coach.
What you are saying, Henry, is that the politics involved make multiple units impractical. The decision not to use them has nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with bureaucratic convenience. And of course, the people are denied the benefits of the most efficient rail service.
"But don't forget that diesels' engines produce electricity to feed to electric traction motors to make things move."
Well yes, but now the locomotive must contain diesel engine, a generator and electric traction motors and haul all of that weight around. Not to mention the pollution of a diesel engine. Even if electricity for an electric train is generated using fossil fuel there is still less pollution.
It does seem to me that NJT just went along with the original decisions by private railroad companies. Where they ran electric trains NJT runs electric trains. Where they ran diesels NJT runs diesels.
The lack of MU's is legendary. Each motorized car is considered a locomotive and must be inspected and maintained as such and not as a coach. Using locomotive hauled cars allows for the cars to be assigned behind either diesel or electric locomotives making them more universal. The decision, many like me charge, was done without considering the differences between the mostly level Corridor with long stretches between stations as opposed to the short distances between stops on the hills of the Morristown division lines and even to Bay Head and High Bridge.
But don't forget that diesels' engines produce electricity to feed to electric traction motors to make things move. What Americans don't want to do is accept as is or push for a trainset that has a locomotive to produce electric power fed to traction motors on a train of cars.
Especially in the New Jersey Assembly, Henry, Chairman John Wisniewski might have recessed the hearing to address other issues after the holidays. He didn't and there is no indication the Transportation Committee will take up the issue again. I see no reason to believe there will be further action by the NJ Legislature.
Patrick Reilly pointed out he will retire in a short time and has no real reason to support or oppose NJT management. Even assuming he is concerned about a continuing labor management relationship he could have just kept quiet and said nothing at all. No one expected him to publically deliver a bouquet to James Weinstein.
My PS point is that other things being equal electric motors are a more efficient from of traction than diesel engines. I believe this is true for both locomotives and multiple units. NJT could choose to run all multiple unit trains on their electric lines. They don't and I don't know what there thinking on the issue is. It would not surprise me though if certain historical issues unrelated to efficiency are involved.
You go several different ways here John....first, its Christmastime, the Holidays, and very soon after Sandy. So not much is going to be done with the administrative part of NJT until whatever has to be done is done: changing command now would not be effective....in fact I think that it hasn't been done is as indicative of the lack of confidence in the management team as anyother conclusion. Even Patrick Reilly knows that and knows he has to work with whoever is there...He is no Quigly out to destroy Mayor "LIndsley". and knows better than to start.
There is a YouTube video taken yesterday of an NJT Dualey (I think) on a flat car in a Union Pacific freight train somewhere in IL. Has anybody at NJT told us what happened and what is happening?
And your PS. Electric traction is one thing, its application is another. Cars and locomotives in commuter service don't appear to be as efficient as Multiple Unit cars...faster acceleration and deceleration, maintain higher speeds easier, better for track capacity. Not purchased in quantity by NJT. Overhead wire provides a good power supply especially for heavier trains...inter city passenger and freight while third rail is more than satisfactory for commuter operatons. NJT inherited the catanary system from basic freight railroad ancestries. State of the art means less than application of the art.
Henry,
I offer the reports in the Star-Ledger because I subscribe and I read it every morning. However, you bring a much broader perspective to the discussion and I could never compare with your own broader understanding.
I agree with your statement of the facts; furthermore the members of the public who spoke at NJT's board meeting agree. Those who post written comments in the newspaper agree too.
It does look to me like our elected officials have decided that Jim Weinstein has a good to excellent track record and, in light of that, he will be allowed this one storm. After all, Sandy was unique in his and our history. Frankly, I am impressed with Patrick Reilly's statement. He is, after all, a Union Officer. He didn't have to say anything at all. Instead he went out of his way to compliment NJT's chief executive officer.
Is there more to be said? I think so. We ought to watch and monitor NJT's recovery efforts. I look forward to your contribution.
PS. Can anyone dispute that today electric traction is the state of the art provided there is sufficient traffic to justify installation of the overhead wires? I doubt it.
This article and a similar coverage in the Morris Record (Morris County, NJ) say about the same thing. One revelation to me was the admission by NJT that diesel locomotion is slower than electric...so lets see what they do about that in the future. Both articles emphasize the poor communications of NJT
Elsewhere I posted
> I have been in the media and worked both the reporting side and the"press relations" side and NJT has failed miserably. The lack of communicationsdoes not appear to be an act of caution but one of confusion and lack ofability. The appearance is that they were floundering from their poor orlack of judgement both at the time of the storm and in preparation time goingback to Nine Eleven for safety and over two decades of higher waters. Theylacked the ability to communicate even if they wanted to. Weinstein saysthey've learned so that they will not repeat the performance "next time".What Christie and the people of NJ should demand right now is that within sixmonths NJT should present a plan to at least provide a back up or full timenew-- command and operations center to MMC somewhere on higher ground andaway from water courses; a plan to move equipment to safety when such astorm presents itself; defined safe locations for the parking and storage ofequipment; plan for personnel to be notified and provided with plans to doemergency work movements, etc. as needed (work with the Unions, not fightwith the unions, to come up with a plan and system...the unions much ratherbe working the day after a storm rather than be sitting at home knowingnothing and doing nothing); and a plan to keep an open communications line withall major media, railroad partners, and governments in the state.
Friday, December 14. Commuters give NJ Transit an earful over storm is the headline of today's Star-Ledger report by Mike Frassinelli. Lack of communication over the delays is the main complaint reported. However, Orin Getz who rides the trains "was perplexed about the decision to leave the trains in Hoboken" and Chairman of the Lackawanna Coalition David Peter Alan was openly critical of NJT's decision to leave equipment in the Kearney yard. Executive Director Jim Weinstein was conciliatory. He explained NJT has learned from this experience and will not make the same mistakes again. In a tribute to Weinstein Chairman of the United Transportation Union stated Weinstein kept union members informed and called him "One of the top people that I've worked with."
Here is the link to the article: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/angry_commuters_blast_nj_trans.html#incart_river
Sorry Midland, but the Ledger and all other papers and news media in the state and region are not doing their job of reporting. They are taking the handouts and printing or reading them. They are not asking the questions that will reveal and explain the story, the conditions, and who, what, why and whens that have been missing. It has been either a very poor job by the media or a very expert and complete cover up by NJT.
John, the newspaper is just doing their job-- reporting the news, and letting the chips fall where they may.
This is in response to your point that elected officials do not want to criticize NJT for fear of putting Federal funds to repair NJT equipment at risk. The Star-Ledger is becoming increasingly critical of NJT and as far as I can see does not share that fear.
Thursday, December 13. For those of us who follow the Star-Ledger there is an editorial about Sandy this morning along with new Bus technology. Here is a link:
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/12/nj_transit_screwed_up_badly_on.html
Not on the NJT website last night nor earlier this morning but is now is the details on Port Jervis Line busing this weekend...in is part of the new schedules for 12/17 link.
One substation reportedly does supply Hoboken, the other, I believe is further west...again, NJT has never been totally specific as to what happened where just that things happened. Yes, it could mean a way not to provide service. The cover up is general here...we really don't know much because they haven't been specific. The point now that bothers me is the weekend bus service on the Port Jervis line. It is announced and detailed by MNRR but NJT has only given it a line with no details or schedules if you go onto the website then dig into each line's alert reports. Communications again lacking by NJT.
henry6 it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
MNRR website headlines busing on the PJ line around Sloatsburg culvert project 12/14 to 12/17 with bus service details. NJT has a footnote if you click into the advisories section but only says there will be bus service on those dates not explaining why nor what bus schedules will be. Another way NJT's communications with its customers right now is non existent.
In another internet world there is a report that Christie's office has announced full service on the Raritan Valley Line beginning Monday 12/18 and that it may take 6 to 9 months while new substations can be designed and built to replace the two that were flooded so bad on the two electrified segments which are powerliess. Didn't identify the two. And this is not on NJT's website
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