With regards to lack of NJT MUs, I understand that while they operate on some lines, they can't make an on-the-fly transition from the ex-DLW lines to the ex-PRR lines which are different voltages and AC frequencies, without stopping and flipping a switch on the outside of each MU car.
MIke...yes that's true. But more importantly is that NJT chose Bi Levels and locomotives rather than MU's for operations. As for those MU's which exists: some are capable of running either on the Corridor and on the Morristown Lines but do not have the capability of changing voltages on the fly...they must stop to make the change. The same changeover exists on the NJCL at Matawan. How simple is it to fix so they can adjust on the fly? I don't know.
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Henry, in another thread they were discussing a similar situation in Philly where SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option. I hope someday they upgrade the old PRR/NEC system (and connecting lines) and avoid the problem.
PS: the earlier thread was: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/211543.aspx
Yeah Mike...when SEPTA was merging its inherited PRR and RDG systems they had to make choices. I'm not sure what they finally did but I do know trains run through 30th St and Suburban Sta. to and from the hinterlands of both former railroads.
The NY Times has an article critizing N Transit for their lack of communication after sandy to their riders.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/social-media-strategy-crucial-for-transit-agencies-after-storm.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&ref=nyregion
Just what I've been saying all along...this article is addressed above...
MidlandMike SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option.
SEPTA was thinking of upgrading some lines, and MUs were designed that could make the electrical system changeover on-the-fly. However, the lines were never upgraded and I don't remember if any MUs were built with that option.
I cannot definitely address the Silverliner-4s however since they are DC traction no inverters would be required and the auxiliaries would be tapped directly off the CAT feed transformer which also feeds a traction rectifier. Most of the auxilaries should only work on 25 Hz.
The -5s are a different animal. CAT is fed to the transformer which is a 25 Hz transformer capable of using 60 Hz as well. Transformer outputs go to a rectifier that then feeds inverters for both traction and auxiliaries. The transformer was is tapped with parallel connections to operate with the CAT power. The -5 specifications stated that provision for an automatic changing mechanisim if needed could be easily installed by SEPTA to connect the transformer in series for 25Kv. I do not know that any is installed. If for some reason the -5s were needed now New Haven -Boston the mechanisim if available can be easily installed .
One item I have no knowledge is whether the RDG lines still use 11Kv or changed to match the PRR conversion to 12Kv. That is not a problem for the -5s as they can operate at full power with voltages as low as 10.2kV or as high as 13.4 Kv well within the limits of 11 - 12Kv 25 Hz or 12.5Kv 60 Hz.
I remember when the Jersey Arrow III's went all thee way to Long Branch. Why was there a modification at Matawan that affected the Arrow III's
a 2009 flood plain map of Hudson county. Notice all the MMC is included in it + a lot other rail lines
http://www.state.nj.us/njoem/plan/pdf/maps/hudson_slosh.pdf
alloboard I remember when the Jersey Arrow III's went all thee way to Long Branch. Why was there a modification at Matawan that affected the Arrow III's
Long Branch? Are you sure? I know the existing electric system was extended from South Amboy to Matawan by PC. When NJT extended power to Long Branch they did it with the different system. I think you mean to Matawan.
Thanks for the Road Warrior's article, Mike. It goes into the details of the State hearing more completely than I have otherwise read. And Jim Weinstein's comment that there will be no further fare increases as long as he is executive director will, perhaps, spread a little oil on the troubled waters of the public reaction to his decision not to move equipment to higher ground.
MidlandMikeWith regards to lack of NJT MUs, I understand that while they operate on some lines, they can't make an on-the-fly transition from the ex-DLW lines to the ex-PRR lines which are different voltages and AC frequencies, without stopping and flipping a switch on the outside of each MU car.
This is interesting, Mike. When the DL&W installed its electric system it used 3000 volts DC which Thomas Edison recommended. When NJT retired the Edison electric cars it also changed over to AC. Clearly it saw the different frequency issue because it made provision to run its EMU's on either frequency. So why has a method that was acceptable when the cars were put in service suddenly become too awkward to use? It may be because when the cars were purchased Mid Town Direct Service was not anticipated. Another question is why did they use a different frequency on the Morris & Essex and associated lines at all. Perhaps because they have to compromise; 60 Hz is today more widely available and needs no conversion while 25 Hz is really better suited to traction. The ultimately choice to go with 60Hz allows for the easier (and perhaps cheaper) purchase of off the shelf electricity even if it there is a sacrifice of efficiency. All that is speculative but it is the only answer than makes sense to me.
But Henry, I think bi-level cars plus locomotives are a sound decision even if they are less efficient. The total number of NJT trains is limited by the fact that there are only two North River tunnels. A new signal system has increased the number of trains that can use them but the tunnels carry as many rush hour trains as is possible. NYP platform length limits the number of cars that can be used on a train. That let NJT to switch to 5 across seating rather than 4 across on its single level cars. But riders hate 5 across seats. It is common for people to stand rather than occupy the center of a 3 across seat. Riding while standing is not just uncomfortable; it is actually dangerous as people can easily be thrown around during sudden and not so sudden stops. They can fall over and fall on each other. Standing riders may have medical issues that impair their balance; yet not be willing to sit in the middle of the 3 seaters. Some trains have so many people standing that it is a wonder there have not been accidents. NJT trains run with people standing in the vestibule which is a violation of law. But NJT ignores the laws.
Bi-level cars provide the greatest number of seats and still have a 2 and 2 seating. So I think the reduction in efficiency is probably worth it.
John
PS. Do you know how much efficiency is lost by running a locomotive and train of cars rather than a train with multiple units?
John WR MidlandMikeWith regards to lack of NJT MUs, I understand that while they operate on some lines, they can't make an on-the-fly transition from the ex-DLW lines to the ex-PRR lines which are different voltages and AC frequencies, without stopping and flipping a switch on the outside of each MU car. This is interesting, Mike. When the DL&W installed its electric system it used 3000 volts DC which Thomas Edison recommended. When NJT retired the Edison electric cars it also changed over to AC. Clearly it saw the different frequency issue because it made provision to run its EMU's on either frequency. So why has a method that was acceptable when the cars were put in service suddenly become too awkward to use? It may be because when the cars were purchased Mid Town Direct Service was not anticipated. Another question is why did they use a different frequency on the Morris & Essex and associated lines at all. Perhaps because they have to compromise; 60 Hz is today more widely available and needs no conversion while 25 Hz is really better suited to traction. The ultimately choice to go with 60Hz allows for the easier (and perhaps cheaper) purchase of off the shelf electricity even if it there is a sacrifice of efficiency. All that is speculative but it is the only answer than makes sense to me.
IIRC at the time they were planning the rebuilding of the DLW electric lines, Amtrak was planning on rebuilding the NEC to 60 Hz. ATK changed their mind about a rebuild, but I think NJT was smart to go ahead with the modernization and be ready for ATK if they ever decide to join the 21st century.
With regard to the single level MU vs engine haul double decker, why don't they use double deck MUs?
BiLevels may carry more people but often still only have two doors per side available to load and unload...takes longer to put say 100 people into or out of two doors than it does to do 70 people at at time...thus you have shorter dwell times at stations getting a train in and out faster and keeping traffic moving. Also, MU's have quicker acceleration and deceleration. Both the dwell time and acceleration/deceleration moves all traffic faster allowing for higher line capacity in given time periods.
As for vestibule riding...at one time is was normal, eventually for smokers only. The problem with vestibule riding now is that the floor can drop out from under you coming into a low platform station.
Don't have to be a physicist or engineer to notice the difference. MU schedules are faster. Just ride an MU train then ride the push pull over the same route and virtual schedule. Diesels are slower than electric loco's which ar slower than MU's. Have ridden NYP to Trenton on both and the 10 car MU shows the locomotive up. Try any train out of Hoboken up the Morristown side and compare the ride and dwell times. Speak to any engineer of any of the trains and they'll tell you the same thing...they've told me.
Double Decker MU's? First, there is a height problem which means tight quarters at least. LIRR once had them but with third rail height was not a problem. Secondly, the dwell times would cancel the acceleration and deceleration so nothing would be gained over all.
And let me temper this post saying this is my opinion as much as anything and there are people who will support me tooth and nail and those who will argue my points with clear reasoning
Henry although I do not know the allowed top speed of the NJT bi-levels it may be that they are planned to meet AMTRAK's 125 MPH speeds on the NEC using electic locos. I believe the ALPs are certified to 125 ?. I know that the last time I rode the EMUs to Trenton they did not exceed 100.
But top speed is not the major factor in commuter operations....it is how quickly a train can accelerate up to speed and decelerate to a stop. A top speed of 100 or 200 miles per hour mean nothing when you have to stop every half mile to even 5 miles...attaining and being able to maintain it for any length of time to be valuable almost non existent and therefore a unneeded expense or cost in train, track, and signaling. I'm not opposed to high speeds, but it has to be cost effective to the operation...no use spending money for something you can't use or are never going to.
Another aspect of the electric system adopted by NJT that I don't understand (nor like) is the inability to jump over gaps to feed adjacent sections. Both the PRR and DL&W had that ability so that even if Hoboken sub station was down, the cat could be fed from the West End sub station. I know Denville could feed past the Morristown sub and as far as possible although there would be a decrease in the amount of power as one went away from the sub station. PRR used to be able to feed Sunnyside Yard from Wilmington, DE at almost full power. Why these islands today with no means of jumping?
For the first time since Sandy I actually rode New Jersey Transit trains.
On Saturday I took the 7 am train from Bay Street Station (Montclair--Boonton Line) and, by changing trains at Broad Street, ended up at New York Penn Station. At 8:11 pm the process was reversed. Going home the first train (to Dover) was crowded to the point of standing room only. As far as I can see NJT is operating a regular schedule but both ways the trains were Metro North diesel locomotives and cars. Aside from the crowding the trip was uneventful.
Good to hear people are riding trains...Not glad to hear that NJT is saving money again by not running enough trains so that overcrowding could be avoided or at least alleviated. They used to do half hour service on weekends at least for the holiday period...mid November until after New Years from Dover. There is so much service not being rendered....
henry6 But top speed is not the major factor in commuter operations....it is how quickly a train can accelerate up to speed and decelerate to a stop.
But top speed is not the major factor in commuter operations....it is how quickly a train can accelerate up to speed and decelerate to a stop.
Henry for the short hop all stops; acceleration is everything so EMUs are the best solution but on the NEC rush hour non-stop trains from Newark - Trenton then 125 MPH can be important for fluidity for AMTRAK trains..
Corridor is just a small segment of NJT. Wires to Dover, Gladstone, Great Notch, and Long Branch are much bigger bites. Newark to Trenton is riddled with about a half dozen stations less than five miles apart with only the leaps from Princeton Jct to Hamilton and Hamilton to Trenton being longer and still probably no cost effective for 100+ running for commuter trains. I think there may be two trains that go Newark to Trenton non stop anymore as Newark Airport and Metro Park I believe are mandatory.. And since the Corridor is Amtrak property with a different schedule, yes, anything can go track speeds as long as Amtrak accepts it. But, NJT can't that equipment for just two or three trainsets.
Right now there is hourly service on the Morris and Essex line during the weekends. Montclair--Boonton is every two hours which is what it was before Sandy.
Last Saturday I've heard there was a Santa Claus convention in Manhattan. It sure looked like it when I took the train home at 8:11 pm. Every third or fourth person was Santa. That includes people on my train. It was an unusually large number of passengers for a Saturday evening.
It is true, Henry, that as you get close to New York on the NEC stations are close together. However, NJT operates express trains. Some are not even during the rush hour. Typically they stop and Newark, Newark Liberty Airport, maybe Metropark, New Brunswick, Princeton Junction, Hamilton and Trenton. There is certainly space to build up some speed.
I understand that NJT's operation on the NEC is the fastest commuter operation in North America.
Economics still precludes real high speed...over 100 mph...commuter operations. It costs too much in equipment and track to really be practical. Despite the speeds being achievable on the Corridor, it still not economical for NJT to be concerned. If, however, there were NYP-Newark-Trenton only trains, then it might be considered. But to buy and maintain equipment for one or two trainsets is out of the question when they need to spend more for what the whole system needs and is practical for them.
Dave, if the Corridor is the only reason, then probably NJT can claim that in some places. But MNRR has several 30 or so mile non stop runs to and from GCT to Harmon, White Plains North, and Stamford which have a continuous high speed. And the NJT-MNRR run Hoboken to Harriman non stop produces a good speed. LIRR has quite a few flyers on their schedules. Speed, in commuter area terms, is not done by peaks but by continuous, non stop runs. I think what clouds NJT's speed image is that Amtrak is zipping by at 100 mph or better while NJT's trains are slowing for a stop or just leaving a station.
Looking at NJT employee schedule for the Newark Div. the longest leap is New Brunswick to Princeton Jct at about 15.7 miles. As for non stop trains...there are four Princton Jct to Newark each way during rush hours only, and couple with New Brunswick stops etc., not enough for NJT to worry about investing in 100+mph equipment at the cost of other equipment.Post
It is easy to believe that the stations farthest apart on the NEC are New Brunswick and Princeton Junction. Of course, that ignores Jersey Avenue; howerver, as far as I know no train that stops at Princeton Junction also stops at Jersey Avenue. If you want to get to Jersey Avenue from any point south of it you have to go to New Brunswick and change trains to go back one stop.
aegrotatioI believe the MARC Penn Line holds that title. Cheers!
Correct; if you look at the northbound schedules ( southbound AMTRAK schedules have arrival times pads ) AMTRAK NEC regional are slower than MARC. Some MARC 35 minutes WASH - BAL. ACELAs are carded for 30 minues. Those fast MARC trains are powered by electric motors that run at 125 I am told.
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