petitnj Population density is dictated by the transportation system. Once the government built the roads there was no way other systems could compete - the government doesn't pay taxes and has eminent domain. $4/gallon is the only answer - price the public out of their cars.
Population density is dictated by the transportation system. Once the government built the roads there was no way other systems could compete - the government doesn't pay taxes and has eminent domain. $4/gallon is the only answer - price the public out of their cars.
Population density and the transportation system are interrelated. Most areas have at least crude roads, and if more people move in, improved roads and more of them will follow. If it gets dense enough, maybe even mass transit will happen.
OnthBNSF, I am also a big believer in public transit, and in reading your initial post, I realize that I would probably go on an on about it as well. That's why I try to hold back on my comments. Public resistance to transit, i think, is a mix of several different trains of thought. One is that over the last few decades we have developed a fear of each other. We don't want to be around people who are different from us. Radiating out in all directions from the town where I live are roads that mile after mile are lined with what I call "yuppie pods". Each has a gate facing the road with a name containing various combinations of words like"Timber", "Wood", "Lake", "River", "Forest", "Glen", etc. The houses in each are very simular, the residents are all in a simular financial "class", and they all have SUV's that try to look like each other. They go to work or shopping insulated in their own vehicles. Anyway, my point is that this pattern of population density makes public transit very difficult to manage efficiently.
Another problem is greed. There is a short-sighted attitude that "If it doesn't benefit me directly, I'm against it." Years ago, I used to drive 50 miles each way to work daily, and though there was a van pool directly to where I worked, I couldn't use it because my job required that I have a car available, and I was subject to working overtime with little or no notice, but every day I was wishing for subsidized transit just to get some of the traffic off the roads. Instead, I saw constant construction on interstate expansion, from two jammed-up lanes to three jammed-up lanes, etc, to where today there are six jammed-up lanes in some spots.
Well, I've ranted enough. I remember my teens in the 50's in New Orleans, when we, like most of our neighbors, did not have a car, but we could walk a block and a half to the streetcar line that was practically a conveyor belt, hop on, and for seven cents ride anywhere in town.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
If we dare to risk a look over the fence to Germany or Japan, we will see people owning cars and still using public transport to a high degree. Just to be fair, this hasn´t always been that way.
Public transport, just like in the US, had been on the decline in the 1960´s and 1970´s, when streetcar lines were closed and replaced by bus service. Ridership figures went down at a higher rate than the no. of automobiles grew.
Change came in the late 1970´s, when people learned, that it being stuck over an hour in rush hour traffic may be not the smartest way to commute to work. That time marked a change in trend. Streetcar lines were re-opened, ROW´s were being separated from the roads or even put underground, new streetcars were put in service, and ticketing systems were unified in urban areas. This process is still not concluded and each year sees a number of improvements.
However, there is a price tag to that. These systems can´t be run as private enterprises, "doomed" to make a profit. While operating profits have gone up, none of the public transport systems we have in Germany recovers its capital cost. They all rely on some sort of subsidy from tax money..
As long as such subsidies are regarded as "un-American" or even "socialistic", any attempt to re-introduce public transport in the US is bound to fail.
Another reason for failure is failure of government to control costs. I sight the current decline in the Pittsburgh PA system. Over the last two years over 30% of services have been cut to reduce costs. Further reductions are planned this fall to the point business are telling their employees there may NOT be parking available 'Dawntawn' and best to lease spaces now. Having traveled to Pittsburgh for over 15 years, I have seen a system of light-rail, modern bus-ways, and mix of public/private bus work very well (built out in the 1980's.) These systems were very heavily used, were on-time, and a pride of the city.
However, due to high on-going operating costs, the advances in modern day public transit is being forced into a death spril, cut back service and routes to cut cost, less riders/less funding, cut back more and lose more riders. The state of PA does not have the funding for schools, the sick and old-folks let along extra for mass transit. Additionally, look no futher than the $ 500 Million expansion project to bring the 'T' to the sport center on the North Side. It was a hoot on the first day folks used the 'T' to watch the Pirates only to be stuck after the game when there was not enough Motormen to run the cars! So the grand experiment that integrated light-rail, bus and roadways will be marked as a failure leaving the general population without any alternative transportation.
In sparsely populated areas there are things like dial-a-ride vans. While some auto owners want to be able to drive anywhere, other people want public transportation to be able to take them anywhere they want to go.
Bucyrus ontheBNSF: That public transit is a public good and should be operated for the sake of those it serves... Public Transit needs to be available to a many people as possible in as many places as possible When you say it needs to be available in as many places as possible, what are some examples of places where it would be impossible to be made available?
ontheBNSF: That public transit is a public good and should be operated for the sake of those it serves... Public Transit needs to be available to a many people as possible in as many places as possible
That public transit is a public good and should be operated for the sake of those it serves...
Public Transit needs to be available to a many people as possible in as many places as possible
When you say it needs to be available in as many places as possible, what are some examples of places where it would be impossible to be made available?
in sparsely populated areas public transit isn't impossible to offer but difficult to offer.
Railroad to Freedom
ontheBNSF That public transit is a public good and should be operated for the sake of those it serves... Public Transit needs to be available to a many people as possible in as many places as possible
I will start off by saying I am a huge advocate of public transit whether it be Rail, Bus, or Hover vehicle I think for the betterment of society it is critical and that our society being Wedded (scratch that welded) to the automobile is not good for our society and it is a problem that not only needs to be addressed, but is a cost, drain, and burden on our society. However I view it as worthless to blame someone else for the public problems of our society, and I so see that there are advantages to automobile and that public transit should merely supplement not replace the automobile. I will use Los Angeles as an example because it's situation reflected much of the entire nation. Why do I discuss these issues? I discuss these issues because our nation is starting to see the light and starting to build public transit and invest in it again.
So why really did public transit fail?
For the most part interurban systems were used as a way to sell something and were privately owned by real estate vendors and utility companies. Once the businesses that supported these systems went away so too did the method of subsidy. The interurban rail systems lacked money to continue on and profitability. These systems were run for the sake of shareholders not the riders and thus the public generally distasted these private companies and were happy to see them go regardless. In the case of the pacific electric they needed to build a tunnel or bridge in Downtown LA or be given the boot but they had no money and couldn't build such improvements.
Another point I would like to bring up is that often the interurban systems suffered from differed maintenance of no maintenance all and thus systems literally fell to pieces due in large part to what I mentioned above ^
The obvious one is the automobile's convenience and flexibility is hard to match for most people and generally speaking automobiles were more available than public transit
Buses were seen as the solution because they could fit in without the need for extra infrastructure and added flexibility, but they brought added maintenance and less reliability not mention added emissions, but modern electrically powered or natural gas powered buses do help. I do see them as a great sollution for smaller trips in less populous areas. Buses also are generally found in pretty bad condition even on the best systems, something that detracted riders. Buses while integrating with regular transit also meant they slowed down traffic and suffered from the same problems as automobiles and for most people meant they might as well go with a car.
So what is to be learned from the death of the Pacific Electric and Various interurban systems
That public transit is a public good and should be operated for the sake of those it serves not for the sake of profit and shareholders. Public transit is a public good and profitability is hard to achieve (while not impossible) and should not be the end goal, the profit if you will is the people employed by public transit and the improved mobility not to mention reduced cost and burden to Society and Tax payers. An unavoidable consequence of this is that like any government institution it policies are often dictated by emotion, cronyism, or politics
The right forms of transit for the right areas, use rail and buses in the areas they work best. For example the LA Light Rail would probably be best in the west side of town where density is highest and traffic problems are for lack of a better word a night mare.
Public Transit needs special right of ways and special priority to get out of the way of traffic and to speed up service whether this be though elevated or underground right of ways of through
Right of Ways should be protected not abandoned
This is these most important thing of all not technology, not the system itself, not how many people it carries, not anything, work has to be done to show to people that public transit is viable and convenient, that public transit isn't just some way for people without cars to get around and it isn't necessarily dirty or uncomfortable. This is a hard one but in people's opinions will change and thus adoption will increase, you can't do alot about this except incentivize people to use MASS transit and try to inform people about it as much as possible.
So essentially the main thing to be learned is that not only did the automobile change people's transit but it also changed the social and economic views and made society increasingly more individualistic.
I think that it also should be noted that GM really did nothing to kill public transit and that the "Taken For a Ride" took its viewers for a ride (aka they are full of it). GM despite how large and powerful they were weren't capable of completely destroying interurban systems. They merely sold buses. GM did play an important part by buying privately owned systems and making them use GM buses, but that is what any business would do. So Yes GM was involved in a very minor extent but blame can't be place solely on them.
Sorry for the really long post but I find this be a very interesting topic
Videos about sollutions to the problems
Public Transport: Who Needs It? (1968)
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3QT69KyPq4&feature=plcp
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ_bp3chws0&feature=plcp
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI-fIZkoPAE&feature=plcp
Let's Go To Town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CElngLAjMaA&feature=plcp
Going Places
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB3-RB6Phlg
Some other sources
http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/pedemise.htm
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm
http://www.1134.org/stan/ul/GM-et-al.html
Just My .02 USD
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.