I sure it's the same in other urban areas, but fear of crime was one of the factors in driving white flight to the suburbs. This fear of crime is also an unstated reason why certain wealthy suburbs were strongly opposed to Metra's proposed Circle Route on the EJ&E, fear of congestion (the stated reason) really means "gotta keep those undesirables out of our neighborhood".
Unlikely. The Metra Circle route mostly would have served/linked suburbs already served by existing Metra lines from Chicago for many years. Last I looked, places like Lake Forest, Winnetka and Barrington aren't striving to kick Metra out for fear of undesirables.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
St. Louis has had some problems in certain areas with crime, especially on the buses. One guy forced a girl off a bus with a gun and raped her, he said he'd shoot if she yelled and he told a couple of passengers the same thing, the driver had no idea of what was going on.
We've also had some crime at Metrolink light rail stations in certain areas, with gangs of youths terrorizing the people waiting for trains.
But I ride public transit every day and have never had a problem. But I'm not on at night or in certain high crime areas. I'm sure it's the same in every big city.
Crime is everywhere, that is why we hire policemen.
Pizza delivery drivers get robbed, banks get robbed, convenience stores get robbed, automobile drivers get carjacked, taxicab drivers get robbed, shoppers get robbed in shopping mall parking lots, in Kansas in 2009, a doctor was murdered as he sat in a pew in church. We don't try to use that crime as an excuse to eliminate any of those.
So why should we use the occasional transit crime as an excuse to eliminate mass transit?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Crime is everywhere, that is why we hire policemen. So why should we use the occasional transit crime as an excuse to eliminate mass transit?
Clearly we shouldn't. Fortunately, the people who live in many of our major cities who have depended on mass transit for years continue to support it. Thankfully metropolitan Chicago transit (RTA) is not controlled by those radical elements who want to turn everything into user-paid-for services.
It is also a case of those who use mass transit have to use mass transit so they use mass transit no matter what happens. Every once in awhile a white knight appears and all is clean again. For the moment.
But the definition of crime and its percieved danger differs when faced with it. I did a radio show on Saturday nights in a small city and didn't leave the station until well after midnight. There had been some daytime, mid week shootings, and the usual drug problems. Several of my listeners who had never ventured into town called me and asked how I could dare go to work when there were shootings and drug trafficing. I told them it didn't phase me, that I never felt endangered nor was ever harmed but they couldn't believe me. I understand that one incident reported by the media permeates in the minds of those who have never experienced the scenes of the crimes before and so it sounds worse than it really is. I don't think a person hearing of a mugging on a New York City subway really understands that the mugging might be one incident amosts a million or more rides on the NYC subway that day. It may be the same once in a million occurance in their own home town but when you have say 10 million people it will happen 10 times more often.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Phoebe Vet Crime is everywhere, that is why we hire policemen. Pizza delivery drivers get robbed, banks get robbed, convenience stores get robbed, automobile drivers get carjacked, taxicab drivers get robbed, shoppers get robbed in shopping mall parking lots, in Kansas in 2009, a doctor was murdered as he sat in a pew in church. We don't try to use that crime as an excuse to eliminate any of those. So why should we use the occasional transit crime as an excuse to eliminate mass transit?
I don't recall anyone suggesting that we should eliminate public transit because it has a tendency, at least in some locations, to attract crime. This has been true everywhere that I have lived that had a large public transit system, e.g. New York, Melbourne, Dallas, and Austin (area). The problem is not just crime. It is also unruly behavior, which occurs frequently in Dallas. School kids board the trains in the afternoon. I have seen some of them swinging from the straps whilst others have spilled forth a litany of four letter words that would have caused my Marine Corps drill instructor to blanch.
Users as well as public transit management need to know that some modes of public transit are more prone to crime. And that it occurs more frequently in certain neighborhoods and at certains times of the day. They need to plan for it.
Management needs to be aware of the impact of crime on the rider's and potential rider's perception of the safety of public transit. It needs to put the appropriate controls in place to reduce the probability of a criminal incident.
Criminal incidents at 7-11, mall parking lots, etc., have nothing to do with a person's perception of the safety of using public transit. The question is whether they feel safe on a bus or train. And in this case it applies to Dallas, which was the root source of the article.
That rude behavior has nothing to do with transit. That is who those people are. That is the way they behave everywhere they go. That is why security guards are always trying to chase them out of the mall.
Perception of danger at specific places is a direst result of the way it is presented by the ratings driven melodramatic news media. 30,000 people a year die in car accidents but that only gets a passing remark on the news. But if a car gets hit by a train it will be big news for a week whether or not there are any injuries. What percentage of the assaults and robberies in Dallas occur at transit facilities?
I think there is the insinuation, Sam, that public transit should be eliminated because it attracts crime but not stated right out. Doing some cursory survey work on the possiblity of returning passenger train service to suburban and rural areas several years ago I came across a lot of anti rail sentiment because of a fear of passenger trains importing crime, making it easier for city drug dealers to enter the area. The truth, of course is, that the very rural areas host marajuana farming and the four lane highways make it easy for after dark trips from the cities to the farm and back. Plus there is always at least one undercover narcotics operitives at many of the bus stations at all times. Rail would not make it any easier than it is now to be a criminal. This same arguement was used in the 1800's when railroads were being first built!
henry6 I think there is the insinuation, Sam, that public transit should be eliminated because it attracts crime but not stated right out. Doing some cursory survey work on the possiblity of returning passenger train service to suburban and rural areas several years ago I came across a lot of anti rail sentiment because of a fear of passenger trains importing crime, making it easier for city drug dealers to enter the area. The truth, of course is, that the very rural areas host marajuana farming and the four lane highways make it easy for after dark trips from the cities to the farm and back. Plus there is always at least one undercover narcotics operitives at many of the bus stations at all times. Rail would not make it any easier than it is now to be a criminal. This same arguement was used in the 1800's when railroads were being first built!
The article talked about an increase in transit related crime in Dallas, TX. No one suggested or implied that public transit should be eliminated. If people perceive that riding public transit places them in harms way, those passengers with a choice will shun it. Perception is reality for all of us. If we think that riding public transit in Dallas or anywhere is dangerous, as indeed many people in Dallas do, we will shun it.
The comments about crime rates away from public transit or what did or did not happen a hundred years ago are irrelevant.
Phoebe Vet That rude behavior has nothing to do with transit. That is who those people are. That is the way they behave everywhere they go. That is why security guards are always trying to chase them out of the mall. Perception of danger at specific places is a direst result of the way it is presented by the ratings driven melodramatic news media. 30,000 people a year die in car accidents but that only gets a passing remark on the news. But if a car gets hit by a train it will be big news for a week whether or not there are any injuries. What percentage of the assaults and robberies in Dallas occur at transit facilities?
The sentence referred to rude behavior on public transit in Dallas. What is it about rude behavior on public transit that leads one to believe that it has nothing to do with transit? Ride the light rail trains in Dallas, as I did for years, and still do on occasion, and you can see for yourself. Afternoon trains are your best bet. I did not state or imply that the issue was rude behavior elsewhere. Elsewhere has nothing to do with public transit, especially public transit in Dallas.
DART management cannot do anything about unruly behavior in the school system. But it can do something about rude behavior on its light rail trains. And it has! It has dramatically increased a transit police presence around the stations since the system opened in the mid 1990s. Unfortunately, given the design of the light rail cars, placing police on them would not be terribly effective.
The Dallas Police Department publishes a map of the crime rates in Dallas. Have a go! All you have to do is figure out where the trains run. And buses!
Sam1 henry6: I think there is the insinuation, Sam, that public transit should be eliminated because it attracts crime but not stated right out. Doing some cursory survey work on the possiblity of returning passenger train service to suburban and rural areas several years ago I came across a lot of anti rail sentiment because of a fear of passenger trains importing crime, making it easier for city drug dealers to enter the area. The truth, of course is, that the very rural areas host marajuana farming and the four lane highways make it easy for after dark trips from the cities to the farm and back. Plus there is always at least one undercover narcotics operitives at many of the bus stations at all times. Rail would not make it any easier than it is now to be a criminal. This same arguement was used in the 1800's when railroads were being first built! The article talked about an increase in transit related crime in Dallas, TX. No one suggested or implied that public transit should be eliminated. If people perceive that riding public transit places them in harms way, those passengers with a choice will shun it. Perception is reality for all of us. If we think that riding public transit in Dallas or anywhere is dangerous, as indeed many people in Dallas do, we will shun it. The comments about crime rates away from public transit or what did or did not happen a hundred years ago are irrelevant.
henry6: I think there is the insinuation, Sam, that public transit should be eliminated because it attracts crime but not stated right out. Doing some cursory survey work on the possiblity of returning passenger train service to suburban and rural areas several years ago I came across a lot of anti rail sentiment because of a fear of passenger trains importing crime, making it easier for city drug dealers to enter the area. The truth, of course is, that the very rural areas host marajuana farming and the four lane highways make it easy for after dark trips from the cities to the farm and back. Plus there is always at least one undercover narcotics operitives at many of the bus stations at all times. Rail would not make it any easier than it is now to be a criminal. This same arguement was used in the 1800's when railroads were being first built!
Surely an exaggerated fear of crime does lead some people to shun public transportation in favor of their cars, just as fear of accidents does lead some people to shun airplanes and trains in favor of their cars (even though their cars are statistically more accident-prone.)
And fear of crime does also lead some people to take a NIMBY attitude toward public transportation. A case in point is Livermore, CA whose mayor and council have pressured BART to put the town's upcoming station along the I-580 freeway at the edge of town rather than in the downtown area where it would be accessible to more people. I saw letters to the local paper arguing for this on the basis of stories about crime at existing BART stations.
However, it's a shame to surrender to "perception is reality for all of us" when perception is exaggerated. For example, many people perceive that railroads can't safely transport hazardous materials, and therefore such shipments should be required to take circuitous routes, traveling hundreds or thousands of extra miles to avoid urban areas just so they're "not in my back yard." Luckily for the railroads, the federal government preempts local attempts to regulate such shipments in response to that "perception".
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/02/02/2979635/police-teen-robbed-at-light-rail.html
Look folks, let's get right to the heart of the matter. In the old job I had quite a few contacts and friends who were police officers. These were the street cops, the "combat soldiers" as I called them (to their delight!) who were out there every day keeping the streets safe to the best of their abilities. If I heard this from one I heard it from dozens: The only thing that keeps a dirtbag in line is FEAR. Fear of what you'll do to him if he gets out of line. The problem isn't mass transit, or where it goes or doesn't go. Where's the fear factor as far as the bad guys are concerned? In many parts of the country it doesn't exist anymore, for a variety of reasons. Pick your favorite and it'll be hard for anyone to prove you wrong. I've got my favorites but I won't waste anyones time reciting them.
I am a retired police officer. Actually, it is not the severity of punishment but the surety of punishment that is the deterrent.
Draconian penalties are not a deterrent if the person doesn't believe he is going to be caught. The person who has been arrested 10 times for driving drunk has probably actually done it hundreds of times. Each time he gets behind the wheel he believes he will make it home OK again this time.
People today do not believe they will be caught. If caught they don't believe they will be convicted. If convicted they don't believe they will get the draconian penalty.
Minor penalties will be enough if the person gets caught and punished EVERY time they step out of line. The penalty must also be timely. Justice delayed is justice denied.
Draconian penalties should be reserved for the person who has proven over and over that they are not going to change.
Phoebe Vet I am a retired police officer. Actually, it is not the severity of punishment but the surety of punishment that is the deterrent. Draconian penalties are not a deterrent if the person doesn't believe he is going to be caught. The person who has been arrested 10 times for driving drunk has probably actually done it hundreds of times. Each time he gets behind the wheel he believes he will make it home OK again this time. People today do not believe they will be caught. If caught they don't believe they will be convicted. If convicted they don't believe they will get the draconian penalty. Minor penalties will be enough if the person gets caught and punished EVERY time they step out of line. The penalty must also be timely. Justice delayed is justice denied. Draconian penalties should be reserved for the person who has proven over and over that they are not going to change.
Absolutely! Well said!
For most people perception is their reality. If they believe that transit, especially at night, is dangerous, irrespective of the facts, they will stay away from it. This is a common perception in Austin and Dallas.
Isn't it spooky when Sam and I agree?
While we have had some intense discussions on a couple of points, I suspect that we agree more than we realize.
Oh, surety of punishment is certainly THE deterrant. Back in the 80's there was a very ugly incident in New York City where two thugs broke into a convent, and if memory serves raped two Catholic nuns and murdered one of them. The police in the New York- New Jersey area went into overdrive trying to find them. Several days after the crime they TURNED THEMSELVES IN. Why? The Mafia put out a "contract" on them. It's true, I got it from the cops. Seems the dirtbags preferred to take their chances with the criminal justice system than with the Mob. Wonder why?
Punishment rarely prevents a crime as most violent crimes like murder and attempted murder are spur of the moment reactions to events. Plus, how many bad crimes are there really compared to non criminal actions? One crime gets reported and every sneeze and hiccup gets front page for the next year. But, one door held for another, one dropped item picked up and returned to owner, one seat given up for another, etc., never gets reported. Those not used to croweded urban living over react to such bad news events as a innner city replant overreacts to the odors of a dairy farm or having to service a pump for water or tend to the life of a septic tank complete with flies and mosquetos.
For every action there is a reaction. The good, the bad, the ugly. I've got a car with gas fill on the passenger side...so I pull up to gas stations with pumps on my right. One day a clown coming at me quickly fills the space blocking my ability to the pump then screamed that I shouldn't have bought a car with the cap on "the wrong side" and made some other remarks of my pedegree, parantage, etc. So, he, parked at a 90 degree angle to the pump proudly pumped his gas as smugly as possible. Yes I was furious and vowed never to go back to that gas station again. But I did a week or so later. Same deal. But this time the guy coming at me stopped short, backed up to the other pump and waved me on ahead. So, yeah, stuff happens. You usually win more than you lose. So, I wouldn't get so upset over one event, one crime. Usueally those in control make the necessary adjustments to ward off further problems. And the newsmedia gets bored with the same old same old.
There have been four murders or killings at DART stations since November 2011. That's four dead humans if your counting. Make all the excuses you want. Point to other dangerous aspects of life in America. It does not override the fact that many people in Texas believe traveling on public transit is dangerous. And they won't do it.
"On Tuesday an assailant staged a running shootout with a DART Officer at DART's Arapaho Center Station in Richardson, which is the first suburb northeast of Dallas. The assailant and a bystander were killed, and two other people, including a police officer, were wounded.
Last month, Dominique Wilson, 20, was shot to death after he traded insults with another man at downtown Dallas’ Pearl Street Station.
In December, an armed man with a lengthy criminal history was shot and killed aboard an Amtrak train at Union Station in a confrontation with Dallas police. A bystander was shot and wounded.
In November, teenage robbers fatally attacked 19-year-old Octavius Lanier at a Fair Park-area station and threw him into the side of a moving train.
DART had said after those incidents that it was re-examining security measures by its 300-officer force."
Typical! There is nothing like a few killings, at least in Texas, to get the coppers attention. But until the bodies begin to stack up, forget the warnings, which is pretty much the modus operand-a here, preventive measures are few and far between.
Its not the fault of the police. They do the best they can. But thanks to politics and management ineptness, securing funding for adequate law enforcement is usually a day late and a dollar short.
And so what would we expect from a state that boasts the allowance that everyone can carry a concealed gun and the law enforcement is done either by comedic Jackie Gleasonesque characters or somber vigilantes or stoic Rangers? Sorry, but that is the picture a lot of us non-Texans get from the stories and boasts eminating from the Lone Stars.
henry6 And so what would we expect from a state that boasts the allowance that everyone can carry a concealed gun and the law enforcement is done either by comedic Jackie Gleasonesque characters or somber vigilantes or stoic Rangers? Sorry, but that is the picture a lot of us non-Texans get from the stories and boasts eminating from the Lone Stars.
The public image of Texas is mostly wrong. It is the third most urbanized state in the union. Although none of my friends have a license to carry a concealed weapon, obtaining a license to do so is not terribly difficult. Come to think about it, I don't have that many friends. Many of them are dead! Although none of them were shot, a few of them had a few too many shots, if you know what I mean.
With the exception of Connecticut, every state in the union permits the carrying of concealed weapons under certain conditions. Texas along with three other states will issue a permit on request providing the requestor does not have a criminal record, has not just been released from the looney bin, and agrees to take a training course on the safe use of firearms. Pulling a weapon on a person in Texas will get the licensee a trip to the slammer in quick order. Believe me, spending time in our lock-ups is not a pleasant experience.
Not to worry Henry. If you plan to be in the Lone Star state in the near future, I will have a posse meet you at the airport. We'll be happy to protect you from the bad guys. You do know how to ride a horse I presume! Our highways are not what they should be! Oh, and don't forget to bring a tent with you. We're a bit short on accommodations these days.
And how many people were shot elsewhere in the Dallas metro region in that same period of time?
What makes you think that DART was in any way a cause or focal point of the violence?
Phoebe Vet And how many people were shot elsewhere in the Dallas metro region in that same period of time? What makes you think that DART was in any way a cause or focal point of the violence?
It does not matter. The key point is that many people in Dallas, as well as other Texas cities, perceive that public transit in their community is dangerous. That is their perception, which is also their reality. The challenge for DART is to change the perception, because it is one of the reasons why DART's ridership is down significantly.
Sam, I do have friends in TX., several classmates from NJ from 50 years ago and former coworkers from 30 or so years ago. So, I really don't think most Texans are much different than the rest of us overall. However, I did have a tenent who moved his family to Galvaston from Upstate NY and quickly returned because of all the quick tempers and knife wielding inhabitants. Plus, when one of your esteemed state politicians saw fit to run for the Presidency of the US he ripped through here, at least, with a platoon of Texas Rangers who were not very nice guests: arrogant, pushy, beligerant. Other political and non political characters and corporations from the Lone Star State have also left a bad impression on the rest of us here in the Mid Atlantic and New England states. The frequent use of the States' Death Penalty as well as the portrayal of the free wheeling non chalance attitude toward guns as presented by news and entertainment media are certainly not very flattering. One sometimes gets the feeling that John Wayne and the Lone Ranger are still state hero's and one expects to see monuments and statues of them all over. Sorry, but that is the PR problem the state has.
Sam1 Phoebe Vet: And how many people were shot elsewhere in the Dallas metro region in that same period of time? What makes you think that DART was in any way a cause or focal point of the violence? It does not matter. The key point is that many people in Dallas, as well as other Texas cities, perceive that public transit in their community is dangerous. That is their perception, which is also their reality. The challenge for DART is to change the perception, because it is one of the reasons why DART's ridership is down significantly.
Phoebe Vet: And how many people were shot elsewhere in the Dallas metro region in that same period of time? What makes you think that DART was in any way a cause or focal point of the violence?
When I was doing a Saturday night radio show in Binghamto, NY...a very small city at that...I was often asked by listeners and others if I wasn't scared because of the crime in the city at night. Of course I was neither scared nor deterred because the danger was percieved because of the ignorance of those who never went into town at any time! Yes, DART has a problem but it is not the shootings it is the fear instilled by the media and perception those who never go to Dallas or the fewere who would ever ride DART have. DART has to show that for every one incident on DART property on any given night is equal to whatever number of similar incidents occuring in Dallas or an average Texas town that same night. It is part law enforcement but more public relations and reality awareness.
Sam1 With the exception of Connecticut, every state in the union permits the carrying of concealed weapons under certain conditions.
With the exception of Connecticut, every state in the union permits the carrying of concealed weapons under certain conditions.
Wrong. Illinois does not permit concealed carry and this was recently affirmed in Federal court as constitutional.
schlimm Sam1: With the exception of Connecticut, every state in the union permits the carrying of concealed weapons under certain conditions. Wrong. Illinois does not permit concealed carry and this was recently affirmed in Federal court as constitutional.
Sam1: With the exception of Connecticut, every state in the union permits the carrying of concealed weapons under certain conditions.
You are correct. Also, I overlooked the fact that DC does not permit carrying a concealed weapon under any circumstances.
Connecticut appears to have changed its stance, perhaps because of the horrendous crime committed there. A doctor's doctor's family was wiped out by two nut cases. As a result, according to the Hartford Courant, Connecticut decided to retain the death penalty. Perhaps it also decided to modify its stance regarding concealed or at least licensed weapons because of the crime, which is one of the most heinous crimes to come to my attention.
So lets see. One state for sure, DC, and possibly another don't permit the carrying of a concealed weapon under any circumstance. That leaves how many that permit a weapon to be carried under strictly defined circumstances?
henry6 Sam, I do have friends in TX., several classmates from NJ from 50 years ago and former coworkers from 30 or so years ago. So, I really don't think most Texans are much different than the rest of us overall. However, I did have a tenent who moved his family to Galvaston from Upstate NY and quickly returned because of all the quick tempers and knife wielding inhabitants. Plus, when one of your esteemed state politicians saw fit to run for the Presidency of the US he ripped through here, at least, with a platoon of Texas Rangers who were not very nice guests: arrogant, pushy, beligerant. Other political and non political characters and corporations from the Lone Star State have also left a bad impression on the rest of us here in the Mid Atlantic and New England states. The frequent use of the States' Death Penalty as well as the portrayal of the free wheeling non chalance attitude toward guns as presented by news and entertainment media are certainly not very flattering. One sometimes gets the feeling that John Wayne and the Lone Ranger are still state hero's and one expects to see monuments and statues of them all over. Sorry, but that is the PR problem the state has.
Texas is unique. I grew up in Pennsylvania, but I have lived in Texas for more than 40 years. As the clouds of the impending civil war grew darker, Sam Houston concluded that joining the United States was a mistake. He advocating reverting to the independent republic that Texas had been prior to unionization. Sounds more appealing every day.
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