I read, recently, that NYC's MTA was considering restoring some commuter service over the ex-New Haven line from New Rochelle to NYP, under the aegis of M-NR.
I am only 70 y-o-a, but don't remember that service. We did go to the magnificent Pelham Manor Station, which housed a huge O-gauge model railroad. It was demolished when the ghastly New England Thruway (I-95) was built. The layout was stored in some baggage (?) cars in Mount Vernon for years. Anyhoo, I think that line had stations at Pelham Manor, Baychester, Westchester, West Farm, Westchester Avenue, Hunt's Point, and (maybe) Port Morris.
The coming of the New York, Westchester and Boston obviated the necessity of the NH service.
The idea of restoration of the service is to facilitate the movement of empleadas eastward to estates in Connecticut, a "reverse-commute" movement. Beat's taking the bus! The MTA seems to have mega-$$$ for silly environmental studies. The new New Haven-line M-8 cars will be able to handle the voltage change, too.
I'd appreciate any info on this topic. Thanks.
Bill -- wdh@mcn.net
I believe you are pretty much right, Bill. NH maybe, m a y b e, maybe had service of some kind way back into the teens and twenties. And it may even have ended at Port Morris rather than go on across the later built Hell Gate Bridge. What I think MNRR/CONDOT is proposing is to bring some CT trains into NYP with some stops in the Bronx as well. It would be faster for many than the subway from Port Chester and Pelhem Bay to Mid town. My feeling is why stop at NYP, but run regional trains from New Haven all the way to Philadelphia with limited stops (Bridgeport, S. Norwalk, Stamford, New Rochelle, Secacus Jct., Newark, Newark Airport, Metro Park, New Brunswick, Princeton Jct., Trenton) changing crews at NYP! The new service starting this Sunday to Giants and Jets games at the NJ Meadowlands from New Haven, coupled with thru ticketing from LIRR points are the right first steps.
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I had to go to 'Wikipedia' to confirm some thingies. The Hell Gate Bridge was opened on 30 Sep 1916, and the tracks were electrified the following year (11kV). New Haven trains could have terminated at the joint Harlem River Terminal, for a while, but my NYW&B books show no evidence. My NH books have scant reference to the East Bronx Line. NH trains could have stopped at Hunterspoint Ave. and Long Island City, in Queens, but I dunno. I do hope that someone has the history.
BTW, there is no "subway" to Port Chester -- none outside of NYC proper. Never was. Used to be able to do that on trolley cars, or the NYW&B....
Anyhoo, the Hell Gate Bridge looks great, methinks, in its new "Hell Gate Red"! AMTK, CSX, CPR, P&W, and NYA use it today.
Bill
Both the New York Westchester and Boston mu trains, also 11000V 25Hz AC, and the New Haven's Harlem River Shuttle terminated at the high platform single track Willis Avenue and 133rd Street Station, with an across the platform transfer to the IRT's onw Harlem River shuttle which connected with the 2nd and 3rd Avenue local trains at the 129th Street Station. (Third Avenue Local Expressed, local in Bronx and express in Manhattan, stopped there during non-rush hours only. At the north end, the New Haven trains terminated on the southern or eastern-most track of the five-track New Rochelle station, and that track is still their and useful for shunting Amtrak trains around Metro North trains stopped in the station. The New Haven's shuttles used the open-platform steel mu cars, from their first 1903 order of mu equipmemt. One Bronx stop was located at Hunterspoint Avenue, which allowed access to the IRT's Lexington Avenue Pleham Bay Line, now the No. 6. But the service was discontinued around 1932 or 1933, while the NYW&B continued several years more. I was too late to ride either, but as a kid during WWII, my dad and I would go by subway to 241st and White Plains Road, ride the "A: streetcar north to Pelham with a transfer to the "H" bus to reach the old Pelham Manor station and enjoy the huge model railroad for wonderful afternoon. Coming home to Manhattan we would ride the H bus to the Pelham station and used the New Haven into GCT or 125th (depending on where we would meet Mom for dinner). Someitmes I got a front platform ride. The H had also been a streetcar line at one time, the inspiration for the Fontain Fox Toonerville Trolley. The only New Haven passenger trains that ever used the Hell Gate were through trains interchanged with the PRR for points south of New Jersey. These included the four main Boston - Washington trains, the Federal, Colonial, Senator, and Patriot, the Quaker to Phialelphia and Pittsburgh, the East Wind summer only train from Bangor to Washington, and the Montrealer-Washingtonian. No New Haven commuter service was ever provided into Penn Station or Long Island points. There were special trains. The Electric Railroaders Assocation organized a PRR MP-54 mu trip to New Haven from Penn Station and return, including coverage of the New Canaan branch. This was during Penn Central days. The New Canaan branch is single track. As I recall, our fan-trip MP-54 consist substituted for the regular 4400-series Washboard equpment on a regular trip Stamford-New Canaan and return, so on only one occasion PRR MP-54's were used on a regular train on the New Haven. Some of the regular passenger were rather surprised, while others had the attitude that anything was possible, and this wasn't anyh exception.
It has been 'a while' since I lived in New Rochelle (1950-'53). I do (seem to) remember a track on the east side of the eastbound platform, the "fifth track". It often contained the parked "wire train", methinks. I didn't know that the New Rochelle-Harlem River service was only a "shuttle". Some of the "thru trains" must have stopped at Pelham Manor (judging from the magnificence of the old station), as well as elsewhere on the "Hell Gate" line, but really dunno. I'm still perusing my NYW&B references, looking for a NH train....
We lived 'way out' on Palmer Avenue, right on the Larchmont line, and I mostly walked to Isaac E. Young Junior High. The trolleys still ran in the city, but not eastward. Ever' once-in-a-while, some intrepid souls would try to establish a bus service "out east", but they all failed, due to lack of customers, franchise regulations, and a NIMBY attitude in Larchmont -- none of them ever "crossed-the-line". Just Palmer Avenue and a neat swamp (a wetland that has been built upon) separated me from the NH main -- clearly visible in the winter. The NYW&B was long-gone in 1950, but remnants did remain. I kept a log of all the NH motors I saw, back then, in a huge ledger left over from our chicken business. Wish I still had it. The ledger, that is, not the egg business.
In later years, commuting to Rye and Port Chester, I always sat on the west side of the train to check out the remains of the NYW&B. Mobile archeology....
Knowing AMTRAK's operating philosophy and need to run fast trains will They reguire??
1. Additional trackwork at New Rochelle to speed both AMTRAK and MN through that interlocking including flyovers to access MN tracks 2 and 3 from Hell gate route without crossing the south track.
2. Moving the freight track to the removed east track location?
3. Operating a three track electrified HSR from New Rochelle - Harold interlocking?
4. Requiring station tracks for stops from New Rochelle - Harold.?
5. Reworking Harold interlocking as necessary?
I assure you, local service on the "East Bronx" line was never provided by anything except a shuttle during the electrified era. During steam days, I do not know. Also, my memory was not completely correct. Although much of the time, the shuttle ran with a combine open platform and coach open platform, the New Haven did at one time have some closed vestibule cars about three or four, that did not have third rail shoes and were intended for the shuttle. I think one was a combine. But eventually they got third rail shoes and any otherwise lacking dc equipment. Whether this was before or after the New Haven's own shuttle to Willis Avenue stopped running, leaving the field to the NYW&B, I do not know. The beautiful and elegant Pelham Manor Station predated electrification.
The Willis Avenue Station and the tracks to the elevated lasted well after the NYW&B quit. The trakc connection was used to deliver the 1938-1939 IRT subway cars intened for 1939-1940 Worlds Fare Service, then and afterward used on both Flushing and Astoria trains from Times Square and capable of mu-ing with the earlier "Steinway" cars. When the postwar (WWII) R-12, R-14, and R-15 cars arrived, these were gradually shifted to the Lexington Avenue Subway Expresses (now 4 and 5) and then to The Bronx Third Avenue Elevated remenant. (149th - Gun Hill Road), where they wer finally sent to scrap by relocated R-12 and R-14 cars. The connecting track had only third rail at the platform, with the track on the other side only equipped with catenary. A 1952 Electric Railroaders Association fantrip was the last passenger train to visit the Willis Avenue Station, and it used the composite cars that were formerly subway cars transferred to the elevated (both 2nd and 3rd Avenues) for rush hour express service only. After running west from the station, the track climbed to a single-track elevated structure over NYNH&H property, then became double track where it was joined by the lead from a short approximately eight track elevated yard about 250 feet long, that had been built to store the retired Forney 0-4-4T's upon elevated electrification in 1901-1904. The last was sold only in 1942, to a Cuban plantation! The connection was abandoned before or around the time of the abandonment of the Manhattan 3rd Av. El in 1953. The little yard continued to exist up to that time, also. The double track then joined the lower level of the double-level four-track approach to the 2nd Avenue Harlem River swinging bridge, coming up between the two lower level tracks. (Upper tracks used only by rush hour expresses, and a few returning against-the-rush equipment moves and locals. After the 2nd Avenue El was abandoned and only the 3rd remained, the west upper level track was used southbound in the morning and the east northbound in the evening, with the other track innactive.)
But most NYW&B passengers (that did not use the connection to the Lexington Avenue Subway at E. 180th Street) did not bother to use the elevated shuttle during good weather. Instead they would walk one block west to the 133rd Station to board a 2nd Avenue or Third Avenue express directly. So, around 1935 or 1936, the IRT discontinued the shuttle from Willis Avenue to 129th Street and it or the New Haven or the NYW&B built a roof over the walkway from the Willis Avenue Station to th elevated 133rd Street Station. This walkway roof was removed by the NYNH&H after the NYW&B stopped running.
At the request of a Metro North employee (Noah Caplin), I designed a flyover system for the five tracks merging to four, using the property east of the New Rochelle Station. This flyover system gives greater flexibility of operaton and solves just about all the problems without the extensive house demolition and road closings that are required for the Amtrak plan to do the job west of the station, which would not do the job quite as well. It involves use of all five New Rochelle tracks and does not require the very limited use of the area by freight trains that are not within commuter train clearance to move from use of the existing two center tracks that lack paltforms. But all five tracks are required for passenger service during rush hours when the mix of Metro North and Amtrak is pretty intense. The pocket track, which is connected at both ends, is a valuable third platform track and should certainly not be used just for freight.
New Rochelle to Sunnyside and NYP, double track passenger line, some 3 and 4 tracks for Long Island freight service. How could they find the capacity?
Amtrak runs 34 Passenger Trains each day over that line, is there room for Local Trains making stops in front of them? Would MTA have to rebuild or add tracks for Local Passenger Service? With four tracks from New Rochelle to Bridgeport and 3 tracks from Bridgeport (Stratford) to New Haven, service east of New Rochelle to New Haven at rush hour, (what with Metro North, Amtrak, and Shore Line East (ConnDOT)), is already at its full safe saturated use.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Oh yeah, there's room all right. And the crux of the service is not to pick up Bronx passengers but to bring people to the west side and or to go further downtown or make NJT and Amtrak connections. It would actually give them a unique "V" service with their Gennies to go from anywhere in CT to Poughkeepsie for equipment and crew utilization!
daveklepper At the request of a Metro North employee (Noah Caplin), I designed a flyover system for the five tracks merging to four, using the property east of the New Rochelle Station. This flyover system gives greater flexibility of operaton and solves just about all the problems without the extensive house demolition and road closings that are required for the Amtrak plan to do the job west of the station, which would not do the job quite as well. It involves use of all five New Rochelle tracks and does not require the very limited use of the area by freight trains that are not within commuter train clearance to move from use of the existing two center tracks that lack paltforms. But all five tracks are required for passenger service during rush hours when the mix of Metro North and Amtrak is pretty intense. The pocket track, which is connected at both ends, is a valuable third platform track and should certainly not be used just for freight.
Dave: Do you have ability to post your proposal for this flyover setup or is it classified information??
The fourth track could be (easily?) restored over Hell Gate Bridge, etc.. I'll check the new Amtrak TT, if it includes NEC service this time, and check the frequency and spacing of the NYP-Northeast trains. Surely, the 'local/commuter' service would run behind the LD trains and we are talking about only a few miles to New Rochelle and back on the 4-track main.
Methinks running the DP Genesis locos under wire misses some points. It would prob'ly be quicker to get to Poughkeepsie via 125th St.or GCT (and a train change). Better yet, open the NHV-POU direct route via the old NY/CNE tracks (now HRRC/PW/DTRR/M-NR/or abandoned), with M-NR connections at Derby Jct., Danbury, and Brewster, too.! Onward! to Port Jervis via the "Poughkeepsie Yuppie Bridge"!!! "Next stop, Binghampton"! Sure....
Hays
Hays, my remarks had less to do with a commuter service New Haven to Poughkeepsie as it did on crew and equipment usage.. But the other side is that passengers to and from NJT and Amtrak points would have an across the platform connection rather than an across town connection. Brewster/Wassaic could not be part of the service (as trackage is now) as there is no direct connection to Hell Gate or West Side routes. But the ability to utilize the rail system on a regiona basis rather that commuter route basis is the most important step forward.
My redo of the New Rochelle "Shell Tower junction definitely provides for three tracks and can be expanded to four, for the line to the East Bronx and the Hell Gate Bridge. At one time there were actually six tracks on this route, separate tracks for the Harlem River Shuttle, for the frieghts, and for through passenger trains.
Incidentally, thinking about the glorious Pelham Manor Station, I see no reason not to believe that the pre-1912 Colonial and Federal did not stop there. It would have made sense, with their only other stop in the NY Metropolitan area (south of New Rochelle) being at the ferry landing for loading on the Maryland. The Harlem shuttle service also existed in steam days, with New Rochelle not only its eastern terminal but also the terminal of much of the then commuter service from GCT. New Rochelle had a coach yard and roundhouse and turntable.
I feel pretty certain that Metro-North - Conn-DOT's plan to provide commuter service into Penn will involve adding a third or even a fourth track to at least part of the route. Three passenger tracks across the Hell Gate with one left for freight makes sense. There is room to expand the fill to accommodate the third track between the point where the freight line leaves to go to Bay Ridge and the approach to Harold Tower. The scenerero for New Rochelle with the current platform arrangement and the east-of-station flyover plan I recommended would be as follows:
Morning rush: Locals to GCT as at present on the southernmost track, expresses on the existing inbound express track with overflow on the outbound express track, all inbound trains to Penn Station, both Amtrak and commuter, on the former pocket track, and all eastbounds on the present eastbound local track.
Evening rush: All trains to GCT on the southernmost track, the westbound local track, all eastbound local trains from either Penn or GCT on the present eastbound local track, eastbound expresses from GCT on either the eastbound or westbound express tracks depending on traffic, eastbound expresses from Penn on either the pocket track or the eastbound express track (largely depending on whether there is a train to Penn in the vicinity), and all trains to Penn on the pocket track.
A second flyover on the Hell Gate line would also be required for maximum efficiency There is plenty of room.
Off peak and nights and weekends could use a variety of arrangements, depending on what track is under maintenance and whether frieghts are in the vicinity, with all freights using either of the two center express tracks.
Use of the pocket track for frieght service, which I do NOT recommend, might require cutting back the concret wall there for clearance!
I never gave any thought about "East Bronx" service, prior to the Hell Gate Bridge or pre-electricication. I just figured it was all freight traffic, back then. Living in New Rochelle, I do remember the 4-motor (or more) lash-ups of the old EF-1 (?) box cabs grinding by, slowly, all night. The EF-2 and EF-3 freight motors were a delight to behold and often pulled TOFC traffic in the daylight, off-rush. Lots of company-owned 4-wheeled trailers. Of course, nothing compared to the later GE EF-5 Rectifier "Jets" in high-speed passenger service.
I was being a 'bit' faecetious about connecting New Haven with Port Jervis, and thereby connecting six M-NR lines in doing so. I don't think there would much business, but the scenery is great!
Suggestion: don't anchor your boat under the Poughkeepsie Bridge! You will be 'rained on' by soiled diapers, "Labrador landmines", and plastic designer-water bottles, once the Yuppies start using it in force.
Sorry! A 'typo', I assure you. The General Electric Rectifier "Jets" were EP-5s! Wow! What a noise they made, coming into GCT, running around there, and, especially departing with a heavy train!!! One of my regular rides was the 5:29 departure from GCT. First stop: Rye. Zoom!, to say the least. I think they only made six or seven of them. #360 was the "class motor", but I may be wrong.
Of course, one only had time for a couple of 'drinkey-poos' on the way home, unless you got on the train early.... Always on-time!
I did not bring the sketch with me to Jerusalem, and it is likely that my former partners at the White Plains office threw it out when the move was made to Chappaqua, but I can easily reconstruct it from memory. If Metro North or the Core Committe or both were intersted. I think it would be legitimate that I be paid something modest for my time, however, as Noah never did anything that I know of with my original sketch. With today's computer technology and MSPaint and Photoeditor, I can to a professional looking drawing.
From my memory of reading the William Fullerton Reeves Book published by the New York Historical Society on Manhattan's elevated railroads, the first steam elevated trains to cross the Harlem River into The Bronx from the combined 2nd and 3rd Avenue Elevateds' terminal at 129th street (platforms and tracks running east-west between the two avenues as they did until the Manhattan 3rd Ave el was abandoned) ran to the Willis Avenue station to connect with the New Haven trains. Construction then continued to 149th Street and then to Treemont Avenue, where it rested until extended to Bronx Park (west) after electrification.
It is also interesting that Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, and The Bronx were all linked by steam elevated railroads, if one can also count the cable operated link across the Brooklyn Bridge, which conected with steam el trains at both ends. Staten Island is still left out of the subway system!
The East Bronx passesnger service thus has a long history.
Google books has a link to Passenger Terminals and Trains by John Droege. It has some great old photos of Stations, Equipment and ROW shots of the NH and NY W & B in the East Bronx
Check out Stan Fischler's very heavy (#-wise) tome "The Subway and the City". Super! Take, with a grain-of-salt, his descriptions of jaunts outside NYC, but that is a minor point. I hope you will be able tor return to the U. S., and your old job, after Bill and Hillary vacate Chappaqua for the environs of Massachussetts and Ted Kennedy's old job. I'll bet you can't get any good Italian food over there! Schade!
BNSFwatcher Sorry! A 'typo', I assure you. The General Electric Rectifier "Jets" were EP-5s! Wow! What a noise they made, coming into GCT, running around there, and, especially departing with a heavy train!!! One of my regular rides was the 5:29 departure from GCT. First stop: Rye. Zoom!, to say the least. I think they only made six or seven of them. #360 was the "class motor", but I may be wrong. Of course, one only had time for a couple of 'drinkey-poos' on the way home, unless you got on the train early.... Always on-time! Hays
Ten EP-5 locomotives were built in 1955 for the New Haven by GE. The traction motor blowers wound up with a whine much like a jet engine, railroad men soon called them the "Jets". Numbers 0370 to 0379 they were rated at 4,000 hp, but, the biggest mistake, no provision to MU the locomotives together. Six remained in service when Penn Central took over and they were renumbered and then called Class E-40. Not being able to be MU with other locomotives, they were removed from service in 1977 and scrapped in 1979.
UPDATE: I got the only copy 'Amazon' offered, the Kalmbach 1968 (?) reprint of the 1916 tome. Paid $29.99, for a $10.00 book. Must be rare! Some interesting thingies in it. The picture of the Pelham Manor station is good. That was a beautiful structure. Was there ever a station on the other side of the 4-, or 6-track Harlem line? I don't recall one from back in 1952. Did the New Haven use the easternmost track bi-directionally for the shuttles? I also never saw an open-platform NH MU car -- way before my time. The book gives a good list, with pictures (albiet small) of seven stations, six in the Bronx. It is a very heavy tome, packed with information, like what type of wainscoating (marble or tile) was use in the men's toilets at various stations/terminals. I do wish Droege had waited a year to publish, after Hell Gate Bridge opened. I like the pictures of GCT, before it was completely decked-over, too. The explanation of the electrification goes well with the cover story in the November issue of Trains, too.
Thanks for the info. I ordered a "slightly used" volume from 'Amazon' for $26.00, + S&H, yesterday. It has been shipped already! 'Amazon's' "slightly used" books are really like new. I'm impressed, being the cheap Scotsman that I am!
The EP-5 "Jets" introduce the McGinnis paint scheme. They were deliverd shortly after took over the management although they had been ordered by Bucky Dumaine's management.
I read in Dave Mears' (free) weeklyrailrevue@aol.com newsletter that the new C-8 MUs are being delivered by Kawasaki. No local fabrication, or add-ons, mentioned being done at the Yonkers (NY) plant. Great way to spend tax dollars! Sad, but prob'ly a lot cheaper than using any unionized labor in Yonkers. I hope the cars can run into NYP, too.
Off Topic: I also heard that the Staten Island ferries were being towed to Virginia for re-furbishment. Much cheaper, even with the 300+ mile sea tow, than using local (NY-NJ) unionized shipyards. My cousin is an "all ocean/all seas" tugboat captain. He can use the work!
BNSFwatcher I never gave any thought about "East Bronx" service, prior to the Hell Gate Bridge or pre-electricication. I just figured it was all freight traffic, back then. Living in New Rochelle, I do remember the 4-motor (or more) lash-ups of the old EF-1 (?) box cabs grinding by, slowly, all night. The EF-2 and EF-3 freight motors were a delight to behold and often pulled TOFC traffic in the daylight, off-rush. Lots of company-owned 4-wheeled trailers. Of course, nothing compared to the later GE EF-5 Rectifier "Jets" in high-speed passenger service.
As a kid in the 1960s, I lived with my family on the 3rd floor of an apartment building underneath the Bruckner Expressway. Across the street was that famous 4-track line that lead to the Hell Gate Bridge and Penn Station.
I clearly remember seeing orange and white striped EF-4 electrics rumbling by with freight trains. There were passenger trains also cruising by, but since the mid 70s, when I became a model railroader and railfan, I had asumed that those were New Haven (later Penn Central) commuter trains I was seeing. Now thanks to the info on this thread, it seems that the passenger trains I was watching were New Haven's hotshots like the Yankee Clipper and Merchants Limited hauled by Jets.
I well remember the station at Hunts Point, which was below the street level. Although closed, it seemed like it was in good shape. I thought that at one time it was accessible during the 60s and one could walk down the stairway to it, but of course childhood memories are not always accurate. One thing I do remember then was hearing what, at the time, was a "choo-choo" sound, which I found out years later was the famous Hancock air whistle. For some reason, even though no NH trains stopped in that part of the Bronx, you could hear it blowing from time to time.
I'm amazed that the NH station, next to Westchester Ave in the Bronx, is still standing so many decades after it was closed.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
The M-8 can not run of 11.5Kv 25 Hz, if it were to be used to NYP it would run off Third rail.
only power the M-8's can handle is 25Kv 60 Hz - 12.5 Kv 60 Hz and 700 volt DC.
The shoe mech's do not have any lift mechanism and current shoe mech's are for MNCR third rail only, there is a design for a lirr/mncr shoe but its not perfected yet, it has no adjustment other than springs
Even when equiped with dual purpose lirr/mncr shoe it can not be used, about a mile and half of catenary between Gate and Harold would need to be made 60 Hz or that section would need third rail and a CD substation.
so for now no M-8's to NYP
Dutchrailnut The M-8 can not run of 11.5Kv 25 Hz, if it were to be used to NYP it would run off Third rail. only power the M-8's can handle is 25Kv 60 Hz - 12.5 Kv 60 Hz and 700 volt DC.
Dutch: where did you get this information? My understanding was the transfoormer was a dual freq capable? 12Kv 25 Hz is close enough to 12.5 Kv 60 Hz?
nope transformer is dual voltage, but only 60 Hz, a 25 Hz transformer would have send weight of M-8 way over acceptable.
Having been involved in developement of M-8 , my info is pretty well 100%.
A 25 Hz transformer would need a core of around 120% bigger than a 60 Hz transformer raising weight over twice current weight.
Regarding my east-of-Shell flyover plan, Passsenger Train Journal has it after MIke Schaeffer expressed interest and Jim Wrinn did not. I think I should be entitled to a few dollars (sheckles?) for its design. I guess PTJ is holding it for a special NYC issue. You could email them asking to see it. A NYC area consulting firm also has it with instructions not to violate in any way a possible PTJ copyright.
Probably Metro North still has the original version in their files some place.
A plan, good or bad is just a piece of paper, unless it is used.
New Rochelle never got the flyover and Amtrak speed is now 45 mph going from/to Hellgate branch.
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