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The best all around transit system in North America.

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The best all around transit system in North America.
Posted by passengerfan on Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:06 AM
Does any other city in North America have a transit system that can compare with Toronto. What other city has a rail system like GO transit with there trains and connecting buses. And the TTC with fast modern subways, diesel buses, Electric buses, streetcars, and light rail? 
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Posted by steam_marc on Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:19 AM
Not St. Louis! Our Metrolink/Metrobus system is quite inefficient.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
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Posted by DMUinCT on Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:16 AM

   Boston's MBTA!!

The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority does it all.

  600 miles of 80 mph Commuter Rail (80 locomotives, over 300 cars) reaching out 50 miles in 2 States --- 4 Subway Systems reaching out 8 to 10 miles ---  A Light Rail line, some running in streets and some running on old Rail LInes --- A group of PCC streetcars --- Diesel Buses on some routes, Trolley Buses on others routes (new Trolley Buses on order).   Whatever works in a given area.

  Parking in Boston runs $35 and traffic is a nightmare, public transit has to work.

Don U. TCA 73-5735

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Posted by Amtrak77 on Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:51 AM
Chicago's CTA and Metra!!! enough said!!!
Timothy D. Moore Take Amtrak! Flying is for upper class lazy people
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Posted by BNSF_GP60M on Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:38 PM
From what I have been on, Sacramento's RTD. Plenty of light rail trains and buses. And for only a $5 daily pass, you can go anywhere in Sacramento County. And it connects easily to Amtrak trains at the Sac station. And it will take you to with in a few blocks of UP's JR Davis yard.
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Posted by paulsafety on Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:51 PM

Here's a vote for Philadelphia.

From Hoovers.com  "The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority, known as SEPTA, provides passenger transportation services in the Philadelphia area. The agency's operations include buses, subways and elevated trains, trackless trolleys, and light rail and commuter rail lines. SEPTA serves some 280 stations, mainly in five Pennsylvania counties (Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery, and Philadelphia) and in the neighboring states of Delaware and New Jersey. Its service territory spans some 2,200 sq. mi. The Pennsylvania legislature established SEPTA in 1964, and over the years the agency has acquired the assets of several for-profit transportation companies that operated in the region."

 

From Septa.org; "SEPTA is one of only two truly multi-modal transit properties in the United States (Boston is the other) with bus, subway, high speed rail, trackless trolley, Regional Rail and Paratransit vehicles.

Number of Routes

Bus (City)

76

Bus (Suburban)

42

Light Rail

 9

Subway-Elevated

2

Regional Rail

 13

CCT Connect Paratransit N/A

Number of Vehicles
(as of FY2007)

Bus

1,371

Light Rail

185

Subway-Elevated

343

Regional Rail

349

CCT Connect

418

Total

2,664


Number of Stations/
Bus Terminals

Bus 

36

Light Rail

53

Subway-Elevated

 52

High Speed Rail

 22

Regional Rail

 153

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:24 PM

If it is variety you want, no city beats San Francisco:

1.  diesel buses.   2.  trolleybuses    3.  Cable cars.   4. Vintage streetcars on street trackage   5.  Modern light rail on private right of way, street trackage, tunnels, subway with high platform stations.   6.   High-speed heavy rail rapid transit in subway, elevated, and surface (BART).   7.  Diesel commuter rail.   8.  Ferry boats

However, when it comes to on-time performance, general spiffiness of property, proper use of rail for all its capabilities, nobody beats Toronto.   It was the only North American City that kept streetcars as streetcars during the dark period of public transit 1965-1978.  To settle an argument in advance, no other city kept electric streetcars as streetcars:

Boston      Subway could not be converted for buses and buses could handle subway traffic

Philadelphia    Same as above for City Division, much private right-of-way (PRW) on Red Arrow

New Orleans      Tourist attraction

San Francisco     Twin Peaks and Sunset Tunnels

Newark            Subway

Shaker Heights       PRW

Pittsburgh        PRW, Mt. Washington Tunnel capacity

 

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Posted by MILW205 on Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:45 PM

Although some malign it, NYC has a great system, in my view.  To be sure, service on some lines is spotty at times (G and L lines, anyone?), but getting around at rush hour you rarely have to wait for more than a couple of minutes.  Further, the 2-4-5-6 lines have nice, modern cars...and the 1-3-7 line cars aren't too shabby, either.

Perhaps the biggest weakness is that there is no high speed rail link to the airports, but the same can be said of many N.A. cities.  Nevertheless, one can get from Grand Central to LGA or JFK in an hour during rush hour via subway/bus for $2 and subway/airtrain for $7, respectively, which is at least on par timewise vs. a rush hour cab -- if you can get one -- at $30/$45.

Agree with Amtrak77 that Metra in Chicago is fantastic, but the CTA is a disaster that I again have to tolerate on a daily basis.  The CTA is significantly worse than it was 4 yrs ago when I previously lived in Chicago.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:31 PM

I'll go with Toronto on this one.  Where else can a rush-hour commuter grab a bus that comes right into his cul-de-sac, takes him direct to a GO station, and then (in winter especially) gives him the option of walking to work underground? 

It's all so very well co-ordinated.  This is just a hunch, not based on actual residence but talking with people who have worked for GO or on the streetcars, but Toronto seems to be blessed with not only financial but civic and social assistance for the idea of mass transit. 

New York definitely has the mostest but not necessarily the bestest.  Outside of the subway system and some commuter, what is there?   Do the buses synchronize with any other mode of transit? 

I've been to Boston and Philly, too, and could probably do quite all right without a car in the central part of either town, but I think most of the public's thinking (if we throw in commuters from the suburbs) is oriented toward private car, not public transit. 

IMHO that's what makes Toronto stand out.  It works well for everyone.  Not to mention that magnificent streetcar system!   -  a. s.

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by gardendance on Friday, April 11, 2008 9:14 AM

 passengerfan wrote:
And the TTC with fast modern subways, diesel buses, Electric buses, streetcars, and light rail?

passengerfan, what are the Electric buses? Toronto removed its traditional trackless trolleys quite a while ago, I think they've been gone over 10 years. Are you talking about hybrid or battery powered buses?

 daveklepper wrote:

However, when it comes to on-time performance, general spiffiness of property, proper use of rail for all its capabilities, nobody beats Toronto.   It was the only North American City that kept streetcars as streetcars during the dark period of public transit 1965-1978.  To settle an argument in advance, no other city kept electric streetcars as streetcars:

Boston      Subway could not be converted for buses and buses could handle subway traffic

Philadelphia    Same as above for City Division, much private right-of-way (PRW) on Red Arrow

New Orleans      Tourist attraction

San Francisco     Twin Peaks and Sunset Tunnels

Newark            Subway

Shaker Heights       PRW

Pittsburgh        PRW, Mt. Washington Tunnel capacity

daveklepper, Philadelphia also kept streetcars, even during the dark times. we have the 5 "subway-surface" lines, but 1965-1978 we also had 7 pure streetcar lines. We started to whittle them away in 1975, eliminating 1 of them because we lost 50 PCC's in a depot fire in 1975, but the other 6 remained until the mid '80's, not being completely eliminated till around 1992. One of them had been reinstated in 2005.

and Philadelphia's still the city with the largest fleet of light rail vehicles in the United States. 2nd If you look at North America, because, guess what, Toronto's got more.

passengerfan and daveklepper, I do agree that Toronto's got the best variety, cleanliness, performance, frequency of service and hours of service, and a bunch of other bests.

One complaint that comes to my mind though is the Scarborough line. The original proposal was that it would use Canadian Light Rail Vehicles, perhaps modified a little bit from the street running models. I don't feel there was any good reason to have finally built it with the linear induction motor vehicles. In addition to making it very difficult to convert it to through running with anything else, Toronto winters aren't very kind to the electrical equipment in the tracks that linear induction motors use. However from what I understand they have put forth the extra effort that keeps it running even in winter, I just don't think it's efficient to have put oneself into the position of needing to go to that effort.

 

Patrick Boylan

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Posted by Amtrak77 on Friday, April 11, 2008 9:24 AM

ok, so far I got this

NYC tranist -  Car not needed to move around much within the city

Philly - Car may be needed but trains are more better

Toronto - Nice system

Chicago - Car will be needed to reach hard areas but not so much toward the city

LA - Metrolink is no up to speed!!! 100% Car needed!! along with tazer, mace, rollerstakes, bicycle, patience to sit in traffic (trust me I know)

*If you have not go outta downtown LA by 2:30pm then forget it!!

 

 

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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, April 11, 2008 7:20 PM

I don't understand why there is no branch-line of the number 7 to La Guardia Airport. After all, the 7 does run quite close to LGA, and it offers express-service to midtown Manhattan.

IMHO, the sky-train to JFK-airport is a white elephant. It would have made more sense to build a subway-line or a branch-line of the LIRR to JFK.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Friday, April 11, 2008 8:09 PM
 martin.knoepfel wrote:

I don't understand why there is no branch-line of the number 7 to La Guardia Airport. After all, the 7 does run quite close to LGA, and it offers express-service to midtown Manhattan.

IMHO, the sky-train to JFK-airport is a white elephant. It would have made more sense to build a subway-line or a branch-line of the LIRR to JFK.

Right on both counts.  And if Robert Moses had been willing to condemn another few feet of ROW, there would be LIRR service into Kennedy today.  Instead, the dreaded "Van Wyck." 

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by paulsafety on Friday, April 11, 2008 10:45 PM
 al-in-chgo wrote:
 martin.knoepfel wrote:

I don't understand why there is no branch-line of the number 7 to La Guardia Airport. After all, the 7 does run quite close to LGA, and it offers express-service to midtown Manhattan.

IMHO, the sky-train to JFK-airport is a white elephant. It would have made more sense to build a subway-line or a branch-line of the LIRR to JFK.

Right on both counts.  And if Robert Moses had been willing to condemn another few feet of ROW, there would be LIRR service into Kennedy today.  Instead, the dreaded "Van Wyck." 

And, why doesn't PATH run another half mile or so to the Newark Liberty Airport Monorail station?  As it stands now, passengers arriving at EWR must use NJ Transit to Penn Station (Mid-Town) or ride NJT in a vestibule (not really enough time to actually drag the bags and find a seat before it's time to detrain) to Newark and change to PATH...

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Friday, April 11, 2008 10:50 PM
 paulsafety wrote:
 al-in-chgo wrote:
 martin.knoepfel wrote:

I don't understand why there is no branch-line of the number 7 to La Guardia Airport. After all, the 7 does run quite close to LGA, and it offers express-service to midtown Manhattan.

IMHO, the sky-train to JFK-airport is a white elephant. It would have made more sense to build a subway-line or a branch-line of the LIRR to JFK.

Right on both counts.  And if Robert Moses had been willing to condemn another few feet of ROW, there would be LIRR service into Kennedy today.  Instead, the dreaded "Van Wyck." 

And, why doesn't PATH run another half mile or so to the Newark Liberty Airport Monorail station?  As it stands now, passengers arriving at EWR must use NJ Transit to Penn Station (Mid-Town) or ride NJT in a vestibule (not really enough time to actually drag the bags and find a seat before it's time to detrain) to Newark and change to PATH...

An excellent question IMHO.  - al

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:37 AM

Rest easy.   PATH will definitely be extended to the NE Corridor Newark Airport Station or to the Airport itself.  I have this on the authority of the former manager.   They are studying the extension right now.

As a native New Yorker, I would rate NY high except for the prejudicial anti-trolley and anti-light-rail attitude, whcih began with LaGuardia and seems to continue to this day, refusing to even consider this mode even when it is the obvious solution to a problem.

The Nortons Point line in Brooklyn is the classic case.   All PRW, direct connection to an elevated subway station at Stillwell Avenue Terminal, fast operation, replaced by a meandering slow bus on a street.

Sorry< Philadelphia by your own admission did not keep streetcars as streetcars.   The only lines left IN CONTINUAL OPERATION were those running into the subway plus Red Arrow with its majority of miles on private-right-of-way.   I do give Philadlephia credit NOW, for having REVIVED a genuine streetcar line, the 15, and if they do more, I'll let Philadelphia share with Toronto and San Francisco, which has also revived streetcar operation, the F line.

But note that San Francisco has all modes of operation that Philadlephia does except currently its commuter trains are diesel and not electric.   But it has ferry boats and cable cars in addition!

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:53 PM
 daveklepper wrote:

Rest easy.   PATH will definitely be extended to the NE Corridor Newark Airport Station or to the Airport itself.  I have this on the authority of the former manager.   They are studying the extension right now.

As a native New Yorker, I would rate NY high except for the prejudicial anti-trolley and anti-light-rail attitude, whcih began with LaGuardia and seems to continue to this day, refusing to even consider this mode even when it is the obvious solution to a problem.

The Nortons Point line in Brooklyn is the classic case.   All PRW, direct connection to an elevated subway station at Stillwell Avenue Terminal, fast operation, replaced by a meandering slow bus on a street.

Sorry< Philadelphia by your own admission did not keep streetcars as streetcars.   The only lines left IN CONTINUAL OPERATION were those running into the subway plus Red Arrow with its majority of miles on private-right-of-way.   I do give Philadlephia credit NOW, for having REVIVED a genuine streetcar line, the 15, and if they do more, I'll let Philadelphia share with Toronto and San Francisco, which has also revived streetcar operation, the F line.

But note that San Francisco has all modes of operation that Philadlephia does except currently its commuter trains are diesel and not electric.   But it has ferry boats and cable cars in addition!

You're certainly right that S.F. has the diversity, but from what I've been told it doesn't run as well as it used to.  For efficiency in point-to-point transit, I'll still go with Toronto.  Bearing in mind it's a much bigger city and metro area.

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by Jack_S on Saturday, May 3, 2008 4:29 AM

 Amtrak77 wrote:

LA - Metrolink is no up to speed!!! 100% Car needed!! along with tazer, mace, rollerstakes, bicycle, patience to sit in traffic (trust me I know)

*If you have not go outta downtown LA by 2:30pm then forget it!!

The Orange County Transit Authority is funding a big increase in Metrolink service.  By 2010 they will have 1/2 hour service both ways from Mission Viejo to Fullerton and from 5 AM to 10 PM.  (I may have these times off by an hour or so.)  They are using a voter-approved 0.5% increase in the sales tax for this (Measure M).

Why to Fullerton and not LA, you ask?  Because LA couldn't come up with the money to do the sensible thing and Measure M funds can only be used in Orange County.  So Metrolink is building some parking tracks west of Fullerton.  We really need a TRULY regional transit authority.

SoCal rail advocates are pushing for 1/2 hour service on weekdays from Oceanside (in North San Diego County) to Chatsworth (northwest San Fernando Valley.  If that happens I see a big increase in ridership.  However that frequency of service is very hard to provide south of Mission Viejo due to some really difficult single-track stretches.

Jack

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, May 5, 2008 9:15 AM
How long ago was there significant opposition to netrorail in the whole LA basin? 10+ years? Now they are talking about 1/2 hr headways> What a change.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 5, 2008 2:40 PM
Again, I agree.   Toronto is the best system.   Not the greatest variety but the best.
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Posted by rluke on Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:01 PM
Cleveland's RTA  won an award for being the best transit system in North America this year.  I am not sure how they managed to win.  It is not on the same scale as the systems in some of the larger cities.
Rich

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